SGOTM 07 - Xteam

[Frederiksberg]

When playing this gauntlet test I suggest that we take notes and report the timing (turn number) of:

• Wonders (Incl. Academy)
• Great People
• Techs, (Incl. tech trades)

It would also be interesting to report the beakers per turn with regular intervals - say every 20 turns.

I expect that the GLH path will produce more beakers and fewer GS's compared to Pyramids strategy.

 

[leif erikson]

When playing this gauntlet test I suggest that we take notes and report the timing (turn number) of:

• Wonders (Incl. Academy)
• Great People
• Techs, (Incl. tech trades)

It would also be interesting to report the beakers per turn with regular intervals - say every 20 turns.

I expect that the GLH path will produce more beakers and fewer GS's compared to Pyramids strategy.

How are we going to put this together? I have most of what you are asking for as I did keep a pretty detailed log. And I have saves for 50 AD, 780 AD and the 1200 AD.

A couple of other important builds were National Epic, University and Oxford University, big boost to research!

It will be interesting to see how GLHouse fares. Great Scientists are extremely useful.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Sorry that I have no time to test, but I certainly like what you're about. Using our first GS for Philosophy makes sense, but how much does it costs us not to have the 25% building bonus with Organized Religion (or is having a state religion not desirable?)?

What is the thinking on cottaging the riverine tlles versus farming them and cottaging un-irrigatable grasslands?

 

[rrau]

I really thought teching went a lot faster with the GL. Maybe if Leif has time, he can play a gauntlet that way instead of pyramids. I'm not the best at MMing, so my test may not be as accurate as it could.

Highlights of my log. (I can't provide beaker per turn report)

Turn 34 start lighthouse finishes turn 41 and start GL. MM to both stone graneries and one crag for GL in 13. (no growth)

54 GL guilt, start library. Mids finished in a land far away the same turn.

61 finish library

70 learn alphabet

82 Start GL (had to research polytheism, I think, myself as noone would trade it - possible source of delay that may be able to be worked around)

84 MM for no growth and max hammers - at happiness limit

85 Decline Washington's demand for lit. They share a boarder and likely won't be my PA anyways.

89 Get the GL.

91 Great Merchant born.....could bulb a useless tech others have, but I can't trade for now, so he goes and explores and sees how much gold he'd bring by trading in a foreign city.

103 GS appears and bulbs philosophy. Change to Pacifism

114 GS#2 appears and bulbw machinery. Then the GM can bulb paper which is on the path to communism, so he does that.....Could have gotten 1100g but chose the tech instead

124 Elizabeth, who doesn't like me comes with an offer for optics for my paper and gold. I take it without renegotiating as I've found civs who don't like you often won't renegotiate. You take it or miss out on the trade.

125 GA appears....settle in place for the 3 gold as my civics are costing 2gpt and I'm about to have to drop my research rate to 90.

130 finish globe theatre

140 get GS #3. I have 8 turns left to education, so build an academy and research time drops to 6 turns. (I could have saved some time here, too)

157 Learn liberalism (I was beaten to it by 10 turns, so I don't get a free tech, but most don't know it so could trade it around) Also received GS #4 who was used to bulb some of printing press

And I don't know why but it looks like I wrote down the year (instead of turn number) on the next one which was 1505 for GS #5

 

[Jimmy Thunder]

A couple of hints:

124 Elizabeth, who doesn't like me comes with an offer for optics for my paper and gold. I take it without renegotiating as I've found civs who don't like you often won't renegotiate. You take it or miss out on the trade.

157 Learn liberalism (I was beaten to it by 10 turns, so I don't get a free tech, but most don't know it so could trade it around) Also received GS #4 who was used to bulb some of printing press

If an AI leader asks you for a trade (i.e. they are offering something in return) you can always reject without penalty. I'm pretty sure you can renogotiate; if Liz wasn't willing to trade she wouldn't have come to you with the offer. I find their offers for trade are even more unevenly weighted in their favour than regular trades.

One way to help insure you get to Liberalism first is to hold off trading Paper. Generally, the AI doesn't put high priority on researching Paper, so keeping it from them will hold them back from being able to research Education for a long time.

 

[leif erikson]

Sorry that I have no time to test, but I certainly like what you're about. Using our first GS for Philosophy makes sense, but how much does it costs us not to have the 25% building bonus with Organized Religion (or is having a state religion not desirable?)?

I think State Religion is going to depend upon what religions spread where. I played last night without a state religion because my target for PA, Huayna Capac, was the founder of Judaism and my neighbors were Hindu. I didn't want to get negative diplo with the Incans, so I avoided the issue of religion. It would be nice to have a religion though. Pacifism is a possibility to push Great People and Organized Religion couldn't hurt. My first GS, bulbed Philosophy, 2nd one used for Academy, 3rd one for Education which put in a position to get Liberalism (and Astronomy for free) and the 4th for Printing Press. All on the path to Communism. I also had a Great Engineer and bulbed Machinery.

What is the thinking on cottaging the riverine tlles versus farming them and cottaging un-irrigatable grasslands?

I cottaged the riverlines. I don't think I grew beyond size 10? We need to think about this because if we can't get other food sources for health, to grow requires more food. My philosophy was to push commerce but food could be more powerful if it allows us to work more coastal tiles for 3 Gold each. So my answer is a definite maybe...

 

[ShannonCT]

If an AI leader asks you for a trade (i.e. they are offering something in return) you can always reject without penalty. I'm pretty sure you can renogotiate; if Liz wasn't willing to trade she wouldn't have come to you with the offer. I find their offers for trade are even more unevenly weighted in their favour than regular trades.

It is true that sometimes an AI will offer a tech trade but when you try to negotiate the tech will be redded out.

One way to help insure you get to Liberalism first is to hold off trading Paper. Generally, the AI doesn't put high priority on researching Paper, so keeping it from them will hold them back from being able to research Education for a long time.

Another good reason to keep Paper a secret is to control the map trading. In my last practice game, I circumnavigated first because I had a monopoly on map trading. And I raised a good bit of cash too.

I think State Religion is going to depend upon what religions spread where. I played last night without a state religion because my target for PA, Huayna Capac, was the founder of Judaism and my neighbors were Hindu. I didn't want to get negative diplo with the Incans, so I avoided the issue of religion. It would be nice to have a religion though. Pacifism is a possibility to push Great People and Organized Religion couldn't hurt.

Having a state religion is necessary for Pacifism to work. I think we should adopt a state religion unless it puts us in serious danger of being attacked by our neighbors. We don't need to make everyone on our continent happy.

I cottaged the riverlines. I don't think I grew beyond size 10? We need to think about this because if we can't get other food sources for health, to grow requires more food. My philosophy was to push commerce but food could be more powerful if it allows us to work more coastal tiles for 3 Gold each. So my answer is a definite maybe...

Grass farms don't do any good when you're at your health limit. Working a grass farm gives 1 surplus food, which will be wasted if it takes you to a population where food is being lost to health problems.

 

[ShannonCT]

Has anyone been able to win any of these practice games by anything but Space Race?

I'm finding my PA ally to be incapable of launching a successful oversea invasion. In my last practice game, I allied with Louis. He easily conquered everyone else on our continent like a good puppet. (Feeding him Cho-ko-nus for him to upgrade with his massive discount proved effective.) I then declared on Isabella on the other continent. Louis had 4-5 times the power of Isabella and yet he'd only send 2-3 transport loads at a time, which Isabella would promptly destroy.

I'm thinking that for a backdoor diplo victory to be possible, we have to do some serious sucking up to some of the weaker AI on the other continent. We can easily take out the AI on our continent one by one, but given the AI's incompetence in oversea invasions, we will probably need the votes of at least a third of the other continent.

 

[rrau]

In one, I was on the larger continent and it had exactly the tiles to win by domination, but the pop was suffering after the war and while I was growing the pop, I lost by space race. In that one, the AI launched effective overseas wars, but razed all the cities

 

[Mad Professor]

In one, I was on the larger continent and it had exactly the tiles to win by domination, but the pop was suffering after the war and while I was growing the pop, I lost by space race. In that one, the AI launched effective overseas wars, but razed all the cities

Yes - I've seen the AI do that fairly often - must be that they actually do pay attention to their economy - not sure what the exact parameters for AI razing are, but it will often do it if the captured city is a very long way from their capital.

I'm sorry I haven't had a chance to play that guantlet yet. I've just moved house, and am very busy. I fly out of Melbourne on Friday for Nairobi for a conference too. I plan to have some "down" time before I go so I don't get on the plane still wrecked, so that might be a good time to have a go at that guantlet!

My internet access will be intermittent between April 25th and May 17th unfortunately as I travel in several African countries, but I'll try to keep tabs on you guys! I'll have to take playing a turnset as it comes at the time - I might have to defer perhaps. We'll see.

 

[leif erikson]

Has anyone been able to win any of these practice games by anything but Space Race?

I'll try to play forward some later in the week. No time atm.

I'm finding my PA ally to be incapable of launching a successful oversea invasion. In my last practice game, I allied with Louis. He easily conquered everyone else on our continent like a good puppet. (Feeding him Cho-ko-nus for him to upgrade with his massive discount proved effective.) I then declared on Isabella on the other continent. Louis had 4-5 times the power of Isabella and yet he'd only send 2-3 transport loads at a time, which Isabella would promptly destroy.

Would it help to gift your PA partner some Transports, or Galleons for upgrade?

 

[leif erikson]

I'm sorry I haven't had a chance to play that guantlet yet. I've just moved house, and am very busy. I fly out of Melbourne on Friday for Nairobi for a conference too. I plan to have some "down" time before I go so I don't get on the plane still wrecked, so that might be a good time to have a go at that guantlet!

Goodness, I guess you are a bit busy. Good luck with the moving and trip, hope your travels are safe and enjoyable.

My internet access will be intermittent between April 25th and May 17th unfortunately as I travel in several African countries, but I'll try to keep tabs on you guys! I'll have to take playing a turnset as it comes at the time - I might have to defer perhaps. We'll see.

Whenever you are ready, just post and we'll get you worked into the rotation.

 

[Cactus Pete]

"Grass farms don't do any good when you're at your health limit. Working a grass farm gives 1 surplus food, which will be wasted if it takes you to a population where food is being lost to health problems."

I was thinking that irrigated grasses would allow faster growth and more science specialists sooner. Whipping might also be facilitated. They could be converted to cottages when (as you point out) further growth is no longer helpful. The question would seem to be whether an extra food is more valuable initially than 2 extra gold with more to come in time. Seems at least plausible that the extra food and increased early growth rate might be more powerful.

 

[ShannonCT]

Would it help to gift your PA partner some Transports, or Galleons for upgrade?

OK, I tried again just building transports and declaring on the weakest AI on the other continent and it worked much better. Louis started picking off AI one by one. He still wasted a buttload of troops but he had 10 times the power of anyone else at the end.

Diplo victory in 1920, and I was 0.2% away from the land for domination as well. I guess diplo/domination is doable. If we have enough land on our starting continent, domination would be easy. Biology does the trick for getting the necessary population (~36%).

 

[leif erikson]

OK, I tried again just building transports and declaring on the weakest AI on the other continent and it worked much better. Louis started picking off AI one by one. He still wasted a buttload of troops but he had 10 times the power of anyone else at the end.

Diplo victory in 1920, and I was 0.2% away from the land for domination as well. I guess diplo/domination is doable. If we have enough land on our starting continent, domination would be easy. Biology does the trick for getting the necessary population (~36%).

That's encouraging!

What date did you get the PA?

 

[ShannonCT]

That's encouraging!

What date did you get the PA?

It was 1100AD. The one big slowdown was that I never adopted a state religion. The whole continent was Hindu, but Hinduism took ages to spread to me. I founded Taoism, but I didn't want to adopt it and piss everyone off. So my GP generation wasn't what it could have been. Actually, I got Communism in 1010AD, but the only AI I had shared war with for 40 turns was relatively weak. So I waited 9 more turns to choose a stronger ally.

I'd say that 1000AD is a very reasonable target for a PA.

 

[leif erikson]

It was 1100AD. The one big slowdown was that I never adopted a state religion. The whole continent was Hindu, but Hinduism took ages to spread to me. I founded Taoism, but I didn't want to adopt it and piss everyone off. So my GP generation wasn't what it could have been. Actually, I got Communism in 1010AD, but the only AI I had shared war with for 40 turns was relatively weak. So I waited 9 more turns to choose a stronger ally.

Religion can be tricky in this game. I forgot that I had the same problem with just getting a religion! Nice date for Communism, and shared war is the way to go. It will be interesting to see how the game develops and what opportunities we can take advantage of.

I assume you built Mids and TGLibrary?
It will also be interesting to see how Fred does with TGLighthouse. If I can find some time, I may try a TGLighthouse run myself.

I'd say that 1000AD is a very reasonable target for a PA.

If all goes well, and we manage the early years well, I think this is doable as well. If we get into an early war, it will slow us down. Think we can restrain ourselves?

 

[Jimmy Thunder]

It was 1100AD. The one big slowdown was that I never adopted a state religion. The whole continent was Hindu, but Hinduism took ages to spread to me. I founded Taoism, but I didn't want to adopt it and piss everyone off. So my GP generation wasn't what it could have been. Actually, I got Communism in 1010AD, but the only AI I had shared war with for 40 turns was relatively weak. So I waited 9 more turns to choose a stronger ally.

I'd say that 1000AD is a very reasonable target for a PA.

That is very promising! Good work Shannon.

I wonder what date you can get from your 1000AD save if you beeline for a space victory? Should be quicker than 1900AD in this instance?

Your comment about having a big enough continent for domination might be the key between pursuing a dom/backdoor-diplo style game post-PA or going for a spacerace game post-PA.

 

[ShannonCT]

That is very promising! Good work Shannon.

I wonder what date you can get from your 1000AD save if you beeline for a space victory? Should be quicker than 1900AD in this instance?

Your comment about having a big enough continent for domination might be the key between pursuing a dom/backdoor-diplo style game post-PA or going for a spacerace game post-PA.

You're probably right. Louis and I cleared the continent in 1820, so it took another hundred years for Louis to decide that his army was massive enough to crush a few more AI. Our starting continent in the test game needed about 5% more land for quick domination. That would have been room enough for 1 more AI, which would have taken a few more years to conquer.

But without enough tiles on our continent for domination, Space Race would have been faster.

 

[Mad Professor]

It was 1100AD. The one big slowdown was that I never adopted a state religion. The whole continent was Hindu, but Hinduism took ages to spread to me. I founded Taoism, but I didn't want to adopt it and piss everyone off. So my GP generation wasn't what it could have been. Actually, I got Communism in 1010AD, but the only AI I had shared war with for 40 turns was relatively weak. So I waited 9 more turns to choose a stronger ally.

I'd say that 1000AD is a very reasonable target for a PA.

Yes, nice work. It seems to me with experience of playing your start through to the AD years once, and watching the comments of the others that the degree to which we have peace and harmony in the BC years plays a significant part in this. Did you steal and workers early on SCT? And if so did that make things uncomfortable for you? I haven't tried it in this one yet, but it would seem to me that worker stealing is problematical - you rely on lack of open borders to protect you from damage by the AI, but getting the worker back to your own area would suffer from the very same thing until you had writing (but the others didn't). I noticed that the land all gets gobbled up very fast making the first few turns the best ones for exploration!

The more I'm seeing results with the mids (I presume that's the way you played this one SCT?) the more I like it. Get an engineer which at worst can be stashed away for useful pursuits later, then have the mid engineer points effectively speeding up great scientists at the cost of a small chance of popping more engineers than we want.

I see the two subjects in the post as related - because getitng the mids optimally requires a worker to develop that stone, and you've got to keep the quarry intact. Being at war too much will be a problem for this, especially as building the mids means archers/axes (or other better-than-warriors defenders) come later.