SGOTM 07 - Xteam

[leif erikson]

Nice find SCT!!

Just did some estimates of the situation using the new info. I do not yet have the maps so estimated that Paris is Cyrus' and Heliopolis is Cathy's and the rough sizes. Here's the crunched numbers:

We have 122 pop points and have 27% of the population.
Our continent has 185 pop points and that is 41.4%
Cyrus has about 19%, or about 84 pop points.
Saladin has about 15%, or 69 pop points.

The others are all bit players, the closest being Cathy with about 11%, at 50 pop points.

To get to the magic 40% again, we need to reduce Cyrus' pop by 20 points and Salad's by 5 pop points. While doing this, we need to protect our maritime resources from their pillaging Caravels. Looks like a war of attrition...

If we're thinking about taking out Tarsus, may as well consider Najran as well.

Should we drive them to form a PA, we're in real trouble and will need to go and raze a bunch of cities...

 

[ShannonCT]

Should we drive them to form a PA, we're in real trouble and will need to go and raze a bunch of cities...

Cyrus's and Sally's shared war with Louis only lasted 11 turns. So unless they had an earlier shared war, they are still 29 turns from being able to sign a PA. It should only take a few turns to do some serious damage to the population of both of them. I think population shouldn't delay our victory at all. I'm betting we'll be waiting on land area.

 

[leif erikson]

Cyrus's and Sally's shared war with Louis only lasted 11 turns. So unless they had an earlier shared war, they are still 29 turns from being able to sign a PA. It should only take a few turns to do some serious damage to the population of both of them. I think population shouldn't delay our victory at all. I'm betting we'll be waiting on land area.

Let's hope so.

Just checked their "love" stats. They are identical.
+1 for years of peace
+2 for providing each other resources
+2 for years of open borders
+1 for mutual military struggles
+2 for civics

EDIT - And they are Pleased with each other.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Cyrus's and Sally's shared war with Louis only lasted 11 turns.

That's good news. They had a DP before that and the question is if this reduces the number of turns required to obtain the DP?

 

[leif erikson]

That's good news. They had a DP before that and the question is if this reduces the number of turns required to obtain the DP?

Doesn't a DP count as time served, like a shared war?

 

[Jimmy Thunder]

You need 40 turns of shared war OR 40 turns of defensive pact. You can't mix and match to make up the 40 turns.

Caravels don't have the ability to pillage, so we don't need to protect our seafood if we are only against caravels.

 

[leif erikson]

You need 40 turns of shared war OR 40 turns of defensive pact. You can't mix and match to make up the 40 turns.

That is a good thing!

Caravels don't have the ability to pillage, so we don't need to protect our seafood if we are only against caravels.

And so is this!

 

[Frederiksberg]

Sal and Cyrus both have Astro and Chemistry (even Steel) so they are bound to have frigates.

 

[ShannonCT]

Sal and Cyrus both have Astro and Chemistry (even Steel) so they are bound to have frigates.

So we will probably need to use them in pairs so that they can defend each other when one gets weakened.

I haven't played Vanilla much lately. Is it still true in Vanilla that if you trap ships in port even with a single ship, the AI ships wont attack even if they have overwhelming numbers?

 

[leif erikson]

Sal and Cyrus both have Astro and Chemistry (even Steel) so they are bound to have frigates.

Yes, I'm sure they will.

I think I should hold on playing this evening. Are there more things we ought to consider before we continue?

Or is the plan, with changes made, sufficient to move us forward to the next handoff? I think our primary concern is getting our continent under our control.

 

[ShannonCT]

Or is the plan, with changes made, sufficient to move us forward to the next handoff? I think our primary concern is getting our continent under our control.

I think your plan is good. Just throw in a frigate between artillery anytime you can't build an artillery in 1 turn, and get us in position to attack/starve Persia at the beginning of my turnset.

And keep us happy with luxuries from Asoka, the extra MP, and the culture slider.

 

[Mad Professor]

I haven't played Vanilla much lately. Is it still true in Vanilla that if you trap ships in port even with a single ship, the AI ships wont attack even if they have overwhelming numbers?

This has been my observation generally, but remember it didn't work in this game when I was attacking Liz. She sailed galleys out of London even though I had a frigate sititng right by the city. The galleys were sunk of course, but she didn't stay in port like I've often seen the AI do under those circumstances.

 

[leif erikson]

I think your plan is good. Just throw in a frigate between artillery anytime you can't build an artillery in 1 turn, and get us in position to attack/starve Persia at the beginning of my turnset.

With four turns left, not sure that we can get many built. Do we want the two that we have moved east, they have a long trip to take and they should stay together. One is wounded a bit too?

The new ones can travel west from Beijing.

This is going to be interesting...

 

[ShannonCT]

This has been my observation generally, but remember it didn't work in this game when I was attacking Liz. She sailed galleys out of London even though I had a frigate sititng right by the city. The galleys were sunk of course, but she didn't stay in port like I've often seen the AI do under those circumstances.

I was thinking about Mecca, Persepolis, and Parsargadae that only have a single tile inlet to the sea. A single frigate in each of those inlets could trap part of their navies.

With four turns left, not sure that we can get many built. Do we want the two that we have moved east, they have a long trip to take and they should stay together. One is wounded a bit too?

The new ones can travel west from Beijing.

This is going to be interesting...

Yes, I think the ones near Rome should move east. When they're in position, the wounded one can heal. And the new ones can go west.

 

[Jimmy Thunder]

Roughly how many turns do we have left?

 

[DJMGator13]

We're currently running at +2fpt, we could cancel the corn deal with Asoka and ive im a slight boost. Bombay is stagnant, Washington & London are +1, while Dehli, Cuzco & Athens are +2. The corn is the only food resource we have that Asoka doesn't.

Also London still needs a w/b on a crab and Tiwanaku needs a w/b on a fish. We have the 2 w/b headed down the coast for these 2 resources but their impact on fpt & growth hasn't taken place yet.

Near Hamburg, Asoka has a worker connecting dyes which he needs. There is another dye SW of Cuzco which we'll want hooked up before we go to war with Cyrus.

We're also 4 turns from Democracy and emancapation. Will Asoka switch to both?

 

[Cactus Pete]

The plan, especially with SCT's found info, is good. Go leif.

 

[DJMGator13]

Roughly how many turns do we have left?

That is a good question. Another is how much pop do we need to makeup?

@leif, make sure your HOF options have the Domination Limit on for population (@ max of 50%).

The reason I asked how much we need to overcome is because I've been playing with a spreadsheet trying to anticipate when Asoka's cities will grow for a second time and if we can speed them up any.

Here is a look at what I've been playing with. Take London for example: If we give him the corn back that puts him at +2 fpt, when the w/b reaches the crab in 2 more turns that takes the city to +4fpt. So London will grow once in 2 turns then it will take it 5-6 more turns to grow a second time. (Should only be 5 turns but I'm not sure when the plus for the w/b starts.) London will grow a third time 6 turns after that. So in 14 more turns London should add 3 pop points alone.

Cities like Sparta, Tiwanaku and York are growing at a similar or faster pace than London. Sparta and Tiwanaku because they are smaller, while York is running at +7 fpt with the corn.

I'm wondering if we can overcome the pop limit without the need for battling Cyrus.

EDIT: We should be adding about 20 pop points just from the growth of our 9 cities (Karak & Madrid in resist still so not in my calcs w/o fpt numbers) for the next 12-14 turns. Problem is we don't know how fast Cyrus is growing. So as SCT has pointed out if we slow/stop Cyrus from growing we may not need to actually raze any of his cities.

 

[leif erikson]

EDIT: We should be adding about 20 pop points just from the growth of our 9 cities (Karak & Madrid in resist still so not in my calcs w/o fpt numbers) for the next 12-14 turns. Problem is we don't know how fast Cyrus is growing. So as SCT has pointed out if we slow/stop Cyrus from growing we may not need to actually raze any of his cities.

If we grow 20 pop points, and all else remains the same, that would put us at 43.99% That is really close, but I do see your point.

Now the question is: How long will it take? We are not sure how long Asoka will take to capture these cities, never mind the time for them to grow.

Even if we do not need to lower our opponents pop, I think we must be prepared to do so.

 

[Frederiksberg]

We should remember to include starvation in our pop calculations. Madrid will starve down to 4 pop as far as I remember and Rome is likely to starve also. We can prevent some of this if we find a way to bring our GS down to Rome so that it can get 1st border expansion in 1 turn by creating an Academy (does Rome have an Academy?).

We may be able to manipulate Asoka into using tiles with more food in Sparta by farming the oil tile and pillaging the cottage on the grassland hill. The worker that is currently set to build a lumber mill could be used for that. Lumber mills are not a very useful improvement since they only add 1 hammer while a farm adds 2 food and works shops and water mills add even more.

Even if we do not need to lower our opponents pop, I think we must be prepared to do so.

Yes, loading up 6 units from the Rome stack into galleons is a useful preparation and if they are not needed for the attack on Tarsus they can be transfered to Kyoto.

I think you are ready to go, leif