SGOTM 07 - Xteam

[DJMGator13]

Now I know it is time for bed. I think they basically did the same thing to you but w/o the vassal. It measured your military power and decided you were too easy to pass over even with being friendly.

Off to bed now, too long of a day.

 

[leif erikson]

Now I know it is time for bed. I think they basically did the same thing to you but w/o the vassal. It measured your military power and decided you were too easy to pass over even with being friendly.

Off to bed now, too long of a day.

Actually, I did get it, thought I'd pull your leg a bit!!


EDIT - Needed a little comic relief after getting the stuffings beat out of me in the test games...

 

[ShannonCT]

At Deity, I think I'd want a couple archers before I'd get a worker out.

I find the AI are unlikely to initiate a war with just archers. They'll usually wait until they at least have axes. So we should be safe from a super early AI rush and can always pull a worker back into the city if we're attacked.

Can you save the game, with an active unanswered demand? And yes the F4 key will take you to the advisor screen, with an active unanswered demand ( I just learned and used this in the HOF 40 game for the first time).

OK, maybe not, at least not legally. The problem though is not that you can't make the save. If you get a demand from the AI, you can hit F4 to go to the diplo screen and then hit Ctrl-S to save the game. The problem is quitting out of the game. There's no hotkey to quit and you can't get back to the main menu until after you answer the demand. You can get back to Windows by hitting the Windows key (next to the Ctrl key) and then force quit the program. But when you reload the save, the AI demand is gone and it as if the demand never happened. That's right. In this way, you can make the demand go away without suffering any negative diplo modifier, but this is obviously an exploit.

Since it doesn't appear that one can legally save AND close the game in the middle of an AI demand, the next best thing is simply to go back to your Windows desktop, leave the game running, post the situation in the team thread, and wait for advice.

Personally, I'm in favour of going Fishing->Wheel->Pottery->Hunting(just in time to get fur)->Writing->Alphabet.

The early Alphabet gives you better trading opportunities, e.g. you can get lots of techs by just trading away Writing.

Build workboats before workers since improved tiles don't give us a massive yield (like cows or irrigated corn would). We don't need masonry until we start building wonders, putting a mine on the hills is just as good for production.

The only downside is only having warriors until Alphabet is in.

Getting cash from an unfinished Pyramids isn't a real boost, since with one city you'll be researching at 100% anyway. Great Library is my wonder of choice .

No bronze working nor archery nor the associated units before Alphabet seems quite risky. Our power graph will be very low and that might invite attack. With BW, we get the boost to our power graph and we can chop and whip units if we're attacked. If we have BW and we see an attack coming, we can chop/whip warriors while we research archery and then chop/whip archers. It's an insurance policy that could prevent an early loss.

If we're going to go all out for the Mids, we should also go for BW and Masonry. Skipping BW and Masonry gets us Alpha that much quicker, but I wonder if it's really worth it. Trading Writing and not Alpha as you propose gets us most of the Ancient techs before the AI starts trading. We probably need to trade away Alpha to get some of the early Classical techs like IW and Math anyway. If we are slower to Alpha because we went for BW and Masonry, we need to trade Alpha to more people to get the Ancient + early Classical techs. That probably speeds up the overall tech pace on our continent. Is that necessarily a bad thing?

In my test games, I was still the first to Alpha after having researched BW and Masonry and was able to get all of the ancient techs (except HBR) and IW (and maybe Math). Going for Lit and Drama next, and then bulbing Philosophy kept me at the front of the tech race with good trade bait, and made getting the Great Library an almost sure thing.

I think we should give serious consideration to going all out for the Mids. They are pretty powerful over the a long game. If we hire 2 scientists and get 2 more from the Great Library, Representation gives us 15 more beakers per turn with a library, +6 more with an academy, +3 more with a university, +12 more with Oxford.

I'll do some testing on the date ranges for AI completion of the Mids and I as well as others can figure out the earliest possible date we can complete the Mids.

 

[leif erikson]

I will be interested to see how you fair. I am finding that the Oracle gets built around turn 40 and the mids around turn 45 or 46. As I posted earlier, I was all set to have them on turn 47 and lost by a single turn.

As you said above, we are going to need to weigh this against the threat of attack based on a poor power graph.

On techs, I got to Alphabet quickly, around turn 60, and I had to wait for enough AI's to discover Math so I could get it with Alphabet. I think there is some room in the schedule to research a few techs before Alphabet and still get there fast enough. Bronze Working may be one of them, but it seems some more play testing is needed.

Looking forward to your result.

 

[ShannonCT]

On various test maps, the AI was building the Mids between turn 44 and 61.

With a Fishing-BW-Masonry-Wheel tech path, I could build the Mids on turn 46. By postponing Fishing, I got Mids on turn 40.

 

[leif erikson]

On various test maps, the AI was building the Mids between turn 44 and 61.

With a Fishing-BW-Masonry-Wheel tech path, I could build the Mids on turn 46. By postponing Fishing, I got Mids on turn 40.

If we can have it by turn 40, I think it is worth going for.

Did you find any trade-offs?

 

[ShannonCT]

If we can have it by turn 40, I think it is worth going for.

Did you find any trade-offs?

Yes, some pretty big ones. No workboats means a lower population after completeing the Mids (2 instead of 4) and longer time to get Alphabet. So I'm certainly not saying that we should skip Fishing.

Another thing I should test is the effect of a worker steal on the completion date. If stealing a worker allows us to get the Mids in 42 turns instead of 46, that might me the reward we're looking for.

 

[Cactus Pete]

I think it unlikely that skipping Fishing is wise. Like the Fishing-BW-Masonry-Wheel tech path and certainly the possibility of a worker steal. SCT are you starting by building a worker until Fishing is researched, then switching to work boat, then whipping to complete our worker?

BTW, I'm still not convinced that just missing the Mids would be a disaster. The gold gained in the treasury at double-hammer rate will eventually prove helpful when civic's cost and inflation set in and/or to upgrade units.

 

[DJMGator13]

I

On techs, I got to Alphabet quickly, around turn 60, and I had to wait for enough AI's to discover Math so I could get it with Alphabet.

I'm working on the AI attitude detail, but this is a good example of three of the keys.

<iTechTradeKnownPercent> sets the percentage for how many other known civs must have a tech before the AI no longer considers it a Monopoly tech and the <iNoTechTradeThreshold> no longer applies.

As its name implies the <iNoTechTradeThreshold> the AI will not trade Monopoly techs to us if our relationship is at or below this number.

<TechRefuseAttitudeThreshold> your attitude level must be above this for the AI to trade techs with you. Values are not numeric, they are listed as Furious, Annoyed, etc...


<iNoTechTradeThreshold> has a min of 5, a max of 20 and a mode of 5

<iTechTradeKnownPercent> has a min of 0%, a max of 100% and a mode of 30%

Mode is the most commonly occuring number, not the average.

[EDIT: The BTS guide says opposite about Mansa i.e. averse to trading - the 0% may mean he always considers techs monopoly techs and you would need to be over the 20 diplo status to trade.]

Mansa has the lowest <iTechTradeKnownPercent> at 0% but has the max <iNoTechTradeThreshold> at 20, but since his percent is at 0 he should consider no techs as monopoly techs, so the requirement of a 20+ diplo status never comes into play with him. His <TechRefuseAttitudeThreshold> is furious so he will even trade techs while annoyed with you and other AIs. This is why games with Mansa as an opponent tend to have a faster tech pace to them, because he will freely trade monopoly techs.

 

[ShannonCT]

I think it unlikely that skipping Fishing is wise. Like the Fishing-BW-Masonry-Wheel tech path and certainly the possibility of a worker steal. SCT are you starting by building a worker until Fishing is researched, then switching to work boat, then whipping to complete our worker?

BTW, I'm still not convinced that just missing the Mids would be a disaster. The gold gained in the treasury at double-hammer rate will eventually prove helpful when civic's cost and inflation set in and/or to upgrade units.

I don't think it's wise to delay fishing either. Food is the most valuable resource in the early game. As far as the build sequence, I tried your example and several others, and they all gave Mids on turn 46 or 47. Before we start playing, it would be good to run through all of the good openings through Alpha so we can choose the best sequence.

Missing Mids by a few turns would be unfortunate. I've been running at 100% research the whole game by trading techs for cash. We won't be doing massive deficit research as in sgotm6.

 

[leif erikson]

Mids by turn 46 or 47 is an iffy proposition.

On Worker steal. I haven't tried this yet but may have some more time this evening. The problem I've been thinking about is getting him safely back to our territory. In test games, by the time I've traveled to a place beyond our immediate neighbors, their borders often close and lock the Warrior from getting home until Open Borders. This would nullify the effect of the steal and may allow him to be stolen back? There isn't much room to move between all these borders...

 

[Mistfit]

where is the test game?

I doubt I can add much but I would like to give it a shot so I can be amazed at how well you guys pull it off

 

[Cactus Pete]

I tried your example and several others, and they all gave Mids on turn 46 or 47. Before we start playing, it would be good to run through all of the good openings through Alpha so we can choose the best sequence. How does stealing a worker speed it up?

Missing Mids by a few turns would be unfortunate. I've been running at 100% research the whole game by trading techs for cash. We won't be doing massive deficit research as in sgotm6.

Okay, I'm convinced. If we don't have a high probability of completing them, we shouldn't try. Is there a need to make the decision before Masonry research is completed?

 

[rrau]

If we aren't going for pyramids, do we want to delay masonry and not research it until after alphabet and trade for it?

 

[rrau]

Mistfit, here's a couple trial games I made.

edit: Shannon CT's test game is towards the end of the sgotm6 thread

[edit2] In the second game, I mistakenly put forests on the marble and stone hills. I'm fixing it now.

 

[rrau]

With my second game, I came the closest to a win.......Got the tiles for domination and was growing population and about 5% down when I lost to a rival spaceship.

 

[leif erikson]

I have it down to 42 turns to Mids, and have gotten them 3 straight times with SCT's save posted in the SGOTM06 thread. The sequence:
Found in place, start Warrior and Fishing.
Turn 5 - Warrior completes, Worker.
Turn 6 - Fishing completes, start Masonry. Change Worker to Work Boat. Beijing at size 1 with 6 turns until growth.
On turn 12, Beijing grows to size 2. Citizens work a grass forest and a forested plains hill. Work Boat now due in two turns.
Turn 14, Work Boat completes, back to Worker. Citizens work Forested Grass and Fur tiles.
Turn 15 - Crab connected. Citizens work Crab and Fur tiles.
Turn 16 - Masonry comes in, start Wheel, due in 5-turns.
Turn 21 - Wheel comes in, start Bronze Working, due in 11 turns.
Turn 22 - Worker completes, start Mids. Worker to Stone. Citizens work Crab and Forested Grass.
Turn 28 - Quarry complete. Beijing grows to size 3. Citizens work Crab, Stone Hill and a Forested Plains Hill.
Turn 31 - Route complete, Stone connected. Worker moves to forested grass east of Beijing, where we want a Cottage later. Citizens work Crab, Stone and Forested Plain Hill tiles.
Turn 33 - Bronze Working completes, start Pottery, no revolt. Worker starts forest chop.
Turn 35 - Forest chop completes.
Turn 36 - Worker to forested plains hill NE of Beijing.
Turn 39 - Pottery completes, start Writing. Forest chop completes.
Turn 42 - Mids completes. Beijing is at size 3 and we have a Crab connected for food.

Turn 42 seems very doable to me!

 

[Cactus Pete]

leif . . .

How about trying it starting with a worker instead of a warrior, then switching to wkbt when Fishing is researched. Like to know whether that looks better at turn 42.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Good discussion

I think it's a good idea to put a lot of focus on diplomacy. We need to know which side to choose if someone demands that we cancel deals or asks us to join a war. It's also important to avoid trading with worst enemy. In my test game I basically gave in to all demands to avoid wars and gain diplomatic bonuses. Does anyone know how to accurately determine the "worst enemy" from the leader relations matrix?

I think it would be nice if we could agree on some milestones in order to focus our efforts. It could be something like this:

1. Build Wonder "X"
2. Research Alphabet
3. Build Great Library
4. Build Globe Theater
5. Research Civil Service
6. Research Communism
7. Get PA

The goal would then be to achieve each of these milestones in the shortest possible time.

It's very likely that there will be time for only one early Wonder and I would like to propose that we consider The Great Lighthouse. I don't think that our capital and leader is particularly well suited for a specialist economy for several reasons:

• Qin is financial so we will get 3gpt (4.5gpt with Bureaucracy) from many tiles like coast, river bank cottages, villages etc. Thus it will often be better to work tiles that will give us both beakers and growth rather than hiring specialists.
• We will need to build wonders that give GA points thus decreasing the chance of getting GS's.
• Trade routes will soon yield more than 3gpt each and the Bureaucracy bonus will apply to gold from trade routes (and tiles) but not to beakers coming from scientists. In my test game trade routes were yielding 6-8gpt in the early AD's (9-12 with Bureaucracy).

For these reasons I'm leaning towards building the Great Lighthouse rather than the Pyramids if we have to choose between them.

Regarding the tech path JT's suggestion of beelining for Alphabet makes a lot of sense. The fewer techs we need to research before Alphabet the more techs we can potentially trade for thus increasing the tech pace. Like CP and SCT I worry about our safety without early BW. And possibly our prospects for getting early Wonders if we are not able to chop. How can we resolve this issue? More test games?

I'm not sure that the worker steal is worth the risk. As Gator points out we probably don't need more than one worker. And if we steal him from a neighbor we could be facing an axe rush at an awkward time. Worker stealing from a more distant civ could give us problems getting the stolen worker back in due time because we need open borders with our neighbors first. Has anyone played a test game with worker stealing?

 

[leif erikson]

leif . . .

How about trying it starting with a worker instead of a warrior, then switching to wkbt when Fishing is researched. Like to know whether that looks better at turn 42.

Gave it a shot. It is interesting how powerful population is.
The Mids come in at turn 45. The Worker completes on the same turn as reported above, no time is saved. I think the reason for this is that for the first 6 turn, you have no population growth. By the time the Work Boat completes, you still have only pop 1 in Beijing.

In the original sequence, Beijing grows to pop 2 on turn 12. With Worker first, pop doesn't grow until turn 16 or 17. I tried it a second time building Mids for a turn after Work Boat to allow Beijing to grow to size 2. Worker still completes at turn 22. Then focus on food until growth to size 3. Mids finished on turn 43 in this sequence.

In essence, by using the earlier sequence, we get a "free" Warrior and complete the Mids at least a turn earlier.

You know my MM, perhaps someone should check this sequence?

BTW, I also ran a couple of tests on Worker steal. I don't think it is a good idea. What happened was that I had trouble getting the Worker back to our city. In fact we could have built on faster!! The worst though is that at Deity, the offended Civ wasn't too eager to sign a peace deal without us able to give something up. In each case, before peace could be signed, they got Open Borders and sent a force that took our city. Not a good thing. I would advise against a steal, unless someone has more success than I had...