SGOTM 07 - Xteam

[leif erikson]

Liz wants both Education and Printing Press to declare on Alex. Does anyone think the discount for us declaring on Alex first would be enough to take PP off the table? I'm thinking it won't be that much and am leaning towards pulling the deal w/o us having to declare on Alex.

It appears that she has only one Village, so Printing Press isn't going to help her empire much. It will be valuable for trade though as we have it unique.

Declaring on Alex can't hurt us much at this point, can it? I would say to go ahead and declare and see if Liz will just take Education.

If we do this we definately want to target Liz after Washington since we gave her techs that the other AIs won't have.

She is second in the master plan, atm.

Can you test that by removing one of the techs? Perhaps she won't do it for just either of them? In that case we can't tell.

Tried that, she wants both. Even tried Astronomy and she still wants Education too.

How much do we know about Alex's forces? If we declare on Alex first to get a discount on getting Liz to declare, we are mounting WW, risking a Greek attack on our lands when we are occupied with Washington or Liz... Mmmmm. How is Liz's power compared to Alex? Would Liz be able to keep Alex so occupied he wouldn't bother us?

Liz has a higher power rating than Alex. Alex's is in an upswing in power. I doubt he can get to us as he'll be fighting through Asoka as well, unless by sea.

We need Globe to keep WW at bay...

 

[ShannonCT]

I think we should be fine to declare on Alex and try to get the price down to just Education. Worst case is that we still have to pay Education and PP. Alex wont be coming after us with Lizzy on his doorstep.

It would be preferable to not trade PP to Lizzy since that will get her closer to redcoats.

 

[leif erikson]

Will declaring on Alex affect the PA with Asoka. If we think it will, perhaps we had better sign the PA first?

EDIT - It will be a -1 for declaring on a friend...

 

[DJMGator13]

I think we should be fine to declare on Alex and try to get the price down to just Education. Worst case is that we still have to pay Education and PP. Alex wont be coming after us with Lizzy on his doorstep.

It would be preferable to not trade PP to Lizzy since that will get her closer to redcoats.

Will do. Then I'll sign the PA with Asoka and attach the save file so we can look at the research situation.

 

[DJMGator13]

Man that was strange, sorry for the delay but my computer (and/or internet) locked up. Had to replay once I got the computer restarted. I've been pretty lucky with my Vista experience so far. So I hope this was just a weird one time thing.

475AD
Trade Education to Washington for Gunpowder

Bribe Fred to attack Kublai – cost is philosophy
Bribe Toku to attack Capac – cost is Drama and Theology

Issue DOW on Alexander
Elizabeth will now DOW on Alexander for just Education

Sign PA with Asoka

The research quirk seems to exist: Physics increased to 14 turns (from 10) for us to do solo. After asking Asoka to research it goes all the way down to 3 turns, even though his cities are only producing 248 and 60 bpt.

EDIT: here's a look at Asoka's cities







We are at the end of this turn - I have not advanced the turn just incase we wanted to change the research, but 3 turn physics w/o using the GS is hard to beat.

 

[leif erikson]

I like the idea of getting Physics first, with an additional GS. Remember that to do this we must ask Asoka to change to Chemistry when there is one turn remaining in Physics.
Then we will have two GS's, at least one of which can bulb Chemistry. Then on to Steel and Cannons!!

 

[DJMGator13]

I think I found the cause of my computer lockup. Hewlet Packard's recent upgrade of their own "Update Software" won't install properly on my Vista machine. I just dl'd on older version of it and the first thing it wants to do is update itself to the newer version that won't complete the install. This usually only runs at night.

I'll play it safe when I play my Civ turns and not be connected to the internet until I can get this resolved. I'll also make sure to save every turn and even mid-turn if I get into any warring turns.

 

[ShannonCT]

I agree we should go for Physics now. If we use the GS to bulb, we could have it in 1-2 turns. (Looks like bulbing is a better use than academy in Bombay, which isn't working its gold mines.) Chemistry should come very soon after. In the meantime, we can build a theater.

 

[Mad Professor]

Eh -the game is afoot!

I like going for Physics first as fast as possible, and then getting Chem and steel so we can really start eating empires for breakfast.

 

[Frederiksberg]

We are at the end of this turn - I have not advanced the turn just incase we wanted to change the research, but 3 turn physics w/o using the GS is hard to beat.

Are we sure that any extra beakers can't carry over to the next tech as they usually do? In that case I would prefer to research first Chemistry and then Steel with the beakers carried over. Having Chemistry and Steel 4-5 turns from now would put us in a good position to attack.

EDIT: I tested this in world builder an my conclusion is that the beakers DO carry over. I think this speaks in favor of researching Chemistry followed by Steel as they are both very useful for the coming warfare.

 

[Frederiksberg]

It could make sense to get peace with Kublai and HC and also Alex as soon as possible. What we don't want is for Asoka to waste units in a war that is only declared for diplomatic reasons. Maybe the smart thing is to do the peace deal just before Asoka is ready to attack with his units - that should buy us some time.

Should we cancel our copper deal with Toku? Maybe not. If he will soon get longbows we would rather have him building axes than archers.

I notice that the GLH is now contributing with 15 gpt to Asoka or 25 beakers per turn. Seems that GLH was the best wonder in the long term (Pyramids would have contributed nothing).

An Academy in Bombay will contribute 24 bpt and bulbing contributes 1641 beakers. This means that it will take 68 turns before the Academy has produced the same amount of beakers. Building an Academy in Washington after it's capture is probably not much better so it seem that bulbing is the best continuation. We can, of course, wait with bulbing until we are ready to start researching Physics.

 

[leif erikson]

Are we sure that any extra beakers can't carry over to the next tech as they usually do? In that case I would prefer to research first Chemistry and then Steel with the beakers carried over. Having Chemistry and Steel 4-5 turns from now would put us in a good position to attack.

EDIT: I tested this in world builder an my conclusion is that the beakers DO carry over. I think this speaks in favor of researching Chemistry followed by Steel as they are both very useful for the coming warfare.

Normally, I would agree with you on this. In this situation, I'm not so sure. In the test game, we had Cannon and Grens already at our disposal. In this case, we are not there yet. We also have discussed the need for some infrastructure, particularly Theater, Globe Theater and, when available, Heroic Epic. (We're there other things?)

What do we have to fight with at this time? Our army consists of 11 Archers, 1 Cho-Ko-Nu, 1 Warrior, 2 Axes, 1 Mace, 1 Cat and a Caravel. In addition, we have 495 Gold for upgrades. We are seriously short of Siege weapons and the going will be difficult at first. Asoka has only 273 Gold, so we cannot raid his treasury at this time.

We will need a turn to build a Theater and 8 turns or so to build Globe. We need a turn to get into Theocracy (this will drop our GPP from +18 to +12, so Physics brings another immediate Scientist). We can turn out Cats at one per turn. During this time, we can research Chemistry (bulbing with a Scientist, and then Steel. Combined, it looks to me as though we can produce over 700 BPT, and Asoka's will increase as he is building Universities in both cities.

Once we get Chemistry, I think we can gift Asoka a number of our Archers to Asoka as we need to build some CR2 Maces for upgrade to Grenadiers. I think we can build 2 for every three turns.

It could make sense to get peace with Kublai and HC and also Alex as soon as possible. What we don't want is for Asoka to waste units in a war that is only declared for diplomatic reasons. Maybe the smart thing is to do the peace deal just before Asoka is ready to attack with his units - that should buy us some time.

I agree with this. We need time to get our military act together. Can we also look at using some pop to rush Globe?

I notice that the GLH is now contributing with 15 gpt to Asoka or 25 beakers per turn. Seems that GLH was the best wonder in the long term (Pyramids would have contributed nothing).

Yes, nice call.

An Academy in Bombay will contribute 24 bpt and bulbing contributes 1641 beakers. This means that it will take 68 turns before the Academy has produced the same amount of beakers. Building an Academy in Washington after it's capture is probably not much better so it seem that bulbing is the best continuation. We can, of course, wait with bulbing until we are ready to start researching Physics.

I agree that bulbing is more efficient as well. The question is if we need to save a Scientist for building an Academy in Cuzco for culture once Asoka takes it?

At this time, I don't see how we can take on Washington. I would like to get the going but I think we are behind the curve a bit atm. Perhaps you have a better idea of how we can speed this up?

 

[Frederiksberg]

Normally, I would agree with you on this. In this situation, I'm not so sure. In the test game, we had Cannon and Grens already at our disposal. In this case, we are not there yet. We also have discussed the need for some infrastructure, particularly Theater, Globe Theater and, when available, Heroic Epic. (We're there other things?)

I think getting an early start on the war should have priority over Globe Theatre. We can probably fit it in somewhere along the line.

What do we have to fight with at this time? Our army consists of 11 Archers, 1 Cho-Ko-Nu, 1 Warrior, 2 Axes, 1 Mace, 1 Cat and a Caravel. In addition, we have 495 Gold for upgrades. We are seriously short of Siege weapons and the going will be difficult at first. Asoka has only 273 Gold, so we cannot raid his treasury at this time.

I don't think we need that big a stack to take on Washington with the help of Asoka. Besides we have time to build a few CR2 maces that can be upgraded to CR2 Grenadiers. That should be good enough to go after New York and later lay siege to Washington. An extra cat for upgrade to cannon would also be nice. Asoka has 5-6 cats that he will surely upgrade to cannons as soon as we have Steel.

We will need a turn to build a Theater and 8 turns or so to build Globe. We need a turn to get into Theocracy (this will drop our GPP from +18 to +12, so Physics brings another immediate Scientist). We can turn out Cats at one per turn. During this time, we can research Chemistry (bulbing with a Scientist, and then Steel. Combined, it looks to me as though we can produce over 700 BPT, and Asoka's will increase as he is building Universities in both cities.

No pressure to build the Globe and the Scientist from Physics is not important since we must anyway save him for expanding culture in Cuzco or Madrid.

My main point is that we can't use Physics for anything right now so we might as well research Chemistry - Steel - Physics instead. With this research path we may be able to start our attack some turns earlier and I think that will reflect directly in an earlier domination date.

 

[DJMGator13]

With some of the war prep we need to do waiting for Physics will not be a problem.

I'm planning on playing more this evening, so if you think of any thing else there is still time.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Sorry that I've been too busy to contribute, but Gator has done good.

Couple of quick thoughts:

Once we grow (in three turns), we can put a citizen on the stone. We can then build the Globe in just six turns -- that's six turns to make available four units (by then upgradable to grenadiers, if we have the gold), which is as quick or quicker than we can build four grenadiers (or maces to upgrade) and we will have no more happiness problems. Can we come up with the gold?

Let's swap those unpromoted units in our capital for promoted ones, move the unpromoted ones into India near Washington and gift unpromoted units when and if we do gift.

Once we take Wash, the cows will be available for health. With that in mind, I'd suggest we pre-chop our remaining two forests to use for instant construction of the HE.

 

[Frederiksberg]

I'm planning on playing more this evening, so if you think of any thing else there is still time.

We have to new important pieces of information. First of all we know that Asoka has in the neighborhood of 6000 beakers we can redirect for whatever tech we want and secondly we know that no beakers will be wasted by researching Chemistry first because the remaining beakers will carry over to the next tech we ask Asoka to research.

I think it would be a good idea to use some time to discuss the next few turns. Knowing the we can get Chemistry + Steel in around 5 turns means that it could make sense to skip some of the preparations and move the DOW on Washington forward in time. If we can successfully launch the war early it would be a mistake to wait!

Once we expand (in three turns), we can put a citizen on the stone. We can then build the Globe in just six turns -- that's six turns to make available four units (by then upgradable to grenadiers, if we have the gold), which is as quick or quicker than we can build four grenadiers (or maces to upgrade) and we will have no more happiness problems. Can we come up with the gold?

The lack of available gold may be a problem. Archers are expensive to upgrade. (When upgrading you pay 3 times the difference in hammer cost between the original unit i.e. archer and the upgraded unit, i.e. grenadier) It might be better to build a couple of CR2 maces since they are cheaper to upgrade and the CR2 grenadiers will be a big help in the early stages of the war when we have a small army that has to rely on superior units rather than numbers. I would suggest that we wait with the Globe until Asoka has captured a couple of cities an earned some gold we can use to do the upgrades.

Without having analyzed the save in detail I would suggest that we revolt to Theocracy, ask Asoka to join us in the research of Chemistry - Steel - Physics. Build a cat and a couple of CR2 maces, upgrade the cats to cannons and maces to grenadiers and declare on Washington 5-6 turns from now. We could gift any unpromoted units to Asoka as CP suggest and keep the rest in Beijing for later upgrade when we have the gold and the Globe. Will 2 cannons and 3 CR2 grenadiers be enough to capture New York?

We can use our current GS for Physics, but it's important that we don't use the GS we get from Physics for bulbing because we need him to expand culture in Cuzco or Madrid. Failing to do this could potentially cost us a large number of turns.

 

[leif erikson]

I think we need to discuss how we are going to go to war. And, please MP, correct me if your experience was different.

The 4.5 turns per city was achieved through the use of Siege weapons. The groups I built were composed of three Grenadiers and 5 to 7 Cannons, later Artillery. It goes way faster with Artillery. The Siege weapons in vanilla will kill the units in the cities as effectively, or more so, than the foot units. The Grens and Rifles are there to protect the Siege weapons and do a little clean up once and a while.

In our case, I think the fastest way to build an army would be to build one more CR2 Mace and a CBT1 and Medic1 Archer so the stack would have a CBT1/Medic1 Grenadier and two CR2 Grens and the rest would be Cannons. Thus we would need to build a stack of at least 5 Cats or Cannons. You cannot count on Asoka to do anything but take the city, imho. We should plan to have the city bombarded to zero culture and all but one weak unit eliminated when Asoka shows up. In the early going, we may have to count on him a bit more as Cats are not very potent, but Cannons are. As we fight, we can change the stack contents to reflect what we learn. I wouldn't say that the numbers are fixed in stone or anything.

EDIT - Note on the promotions for Cats. I promoted them mostly to CR1 and Accuracy. iirc, four Cannons with Accuracy took a city to 0% culture, so the fifth can be promo'ed to CR2. As we add them, we need to ry to keep at least 4 with Accuracy.

Once we get going, we should be building almost entirely Siege units. And Globe is important because as we do most of the fighting, it doesn't take long for War Weariness to begin effecting our ability to produce replacement Siege units. If we are going to count on Asoka to do some of the fighting, I believe that the turns per city will increase to more like 6 or 7 turns per city. We must also consider turns to heal units, especially with the Cats that Washington has.

Thus research should focus on getting Grenadiers and Cannons for the initial phase and then moving to Artillery as quickly as we can get there. I have no objections to going Chemistry and Steel first. I am unsure that we will be ready to use them given our and Asoka's Gold supply atm. Upgrading Cats to Cannons is quite expensive! I think this is why trying to get Heroic Epic on line is so important. We can really pump out the units once it is in place in order to sustain our drive to domination. To sustain that drive, Globe is also very important! All happy faces working feverishly to pump out units is very important!

 

[Cactus Pete]

Big stacks are targets for Wash's cats. 2 grenadiers and 2 cats are all we need to put on one tile, until we're fighting more than cats, muskets, and longbows.

 

[Frederiksberg]

We currently have 495 gold and can get 273 from Asoka for a total of 768 gold.

The upgrade costs are:

Axe -> Gren: 215
Archer -> Gren: 245
Cat -> Cannon: 200
Mace -> Gren: 110
Choko -> Gren: 140

So we have money for upgrade of 6 (almost 7) maces to grenadiers while we can only upgrade 3 archers to grenadiers. Maybe the conclusion is that we should build some CR2 maces and upgrade and use only cats in the initial attack. Would it be useful to have a single cannon for bombarding?

 

[Frederiksberg]

I think we need to discuss how we are going to go to war.

Yes, I also think we need this discussion before Gator continues.

In our case, I think the fastest way to build an army would be to build one more CR2 Mace and a CBT1 and Medic1 Archer so the stack would have a CBT1/Medic1 Grenadier and two CR2 Grens and the rest would be Cannons. Thus we would need to build a stack of at least 5 Cats or Cannons.

We really need a medic unit. I'm thinking that we might want more grenadiers in the beginning and then ramp up on cannons later. CR2 grens are pretty good against longbows.

You cannot count on Asoka to do anything but take the city, imho. We should plan to have the city bombarded to zero culture and all but one weak unit eliminated when Asoka shows up. In the early going, we may have to count on him a bit more as Cats are not very potent, but Cannons are.

As soon as we have Steel we can probably expect Asoka to upgrade all his cats to cannons (and xbows to grens after Chem.). By declaring a little early on Washington we would at least give Asoka a chance to be a little active in the attack.

Once we get going, we should be building almost entirely Siege units. And Globe is important because as we do most of the fighting, it doesn't take long for War Weariness to begin effecting our ability to produce replacement Siege units. If we are going to count on Asoka to do some of the fighting, I believe that the turns per city will increase to more like 6 or 7 turns per city. We must also consider turns to heal units, especially with the Cats that Washington has.

If we get an early start it's more acceptable that the conquest takes a little longer

Thus research should focus on getting Grenadiers and Cannons for the initial phase and then moving to Artillery as quickly as we can get there. I have no objections to going Chemistry and Steel first. I am unsure that we will be ready to use them given our and Asoka's Gold supply atm. Upgrading Cats to Cannons is quite expensive! I think this is why trying to get Heroic Epic on line is so important. We can really pump out the units once it is in place in order to sustain our drive to domination. To sustain that drive, Globe is also very important! All happy faces working feverishly to pump out units is very important!

In the beginning when we lack gold for upgrades we can also consider building cannons. The Heroic Epic will be available faster if we can upgrade our 9/10 mace to grenadier and use him against a longbow. Unfortunately he's quite badly wounded so it might be better to build some 6/10 maces, upgrade to grens and then go looking for two successful battles. The sooner we get Chemistry and some action the sooner we get the HE. Globe is nice but may not be mandatory - at least in the initial phase. And it doesn't look like we have the gold to upgrade the liberated archer MP's to grens anyway.