SGOTM 07 - Xteam

[Frederiksberg]

Asoka has our Deer already. The only resource left that we can give him would be our sheep.

Sorry, I meant cow. Don't have the save here, but I think we can give that away to Asoka and then then the sheep as soon as we have Asoka's corn.

We can put science at 0% and still get Rocketry in two turns (then Biology?), so there is no reason to be keeping units as MP's (really don't even need one MP, except to reduce culture needs and allow us to generate a little more gold per turn for help in upgrading).

I think we should do one more turn of research on Rocketry and then switch to Biology. This will allow Asoka to finish Rocketry in 2 turns a and we have first go at putting the Apollo program in our production queue (with no intention of building it, of course). One MP in Beijing should be sufficient.

I don't think grens (or rifles) can be upgraded to SAMs, only infantry.

I tested this before suggesting to go for Rocketry and yes, they do upgrade!

Can we really expect Asoka to follow us directly to Rome? With his crew of units roaming Greek lands, it might be more realistic to expect him to follow us to Antium before Rome. If we can take Antium and Madrid in the next few turns, we'd have a good place to upgrade our gunpowder units to SAMs.

As far as I understand Asoka will normally move fast when he sees an easy target. I guess that means that we shouldn't expect Asoka to start moving against Madrid and Rome before we have eliminated most of the defenders. Madrid should be fairly quick to handle but it will take some time to get down to Rome. I think we have an opportunity to have Asoka capture Tiwanaku quite fast and from there he can enter Roman territory.

My suggestion differs from both SCT and Fred (so looks like Gator picked the right place to pause). How about letting Sparta fall, sign a brief cease fire with HC, and then attack both German cities? We have stacks near both and Asoka can get to both fairly quickly, plus they are on the way to JC's cities anyway. (Otherwise we're just going to have to retrace our steps and go back to Germany.)

Our stack is almost ready to attack Madrid. If we change plans now several turns will be lost when we close borders with Germany and our units are moved somewhere outside of German territory. I don't think we need to do any retracing. The Madrid stack can continue for Rome while the Sparta stack captures cities along the coast. We already have 3 artillery near Beijing and if we can upgrade a couple of archers to grens and produce 2-3 more artillery we have a third stack that can move against Berlin and Antium. Units produced after the 3rd stack can be used to deal with Hamburg and Kyoto.

 

[leif erikson]

Sorry, I meant cow. Don't have the save here, but I think we can give that away to Asoka and then then the sheep as soon as we have Asoka's corn.

I see it now. While you were looking at Deer, I missed the Cow.

I think this will work fine. In addition, we could build a Windmill on the plains hill NE and then east of Beijing to gain another food while losing one Hammer.

I think we should do one more turn of research on Rocketry and then switch to Biology. This will allow Asoka to finish Rocketry in 2 turns a and we have first go at putting the Apollo program in our production queue (with no intention of building it, of course). One MP in Beijing should be sufficient.

We could decrease the research percentage to 60, or even 50, to keep from losing half our gold that we need for upgrades?

It is 200 Gold for each LB to Rifle and 245 Gold for Archer to Gren. Perhaps giving those Archers to Asoka for upgrade would be best. There isn't much Gold around atm. Once Asoka takes Sparta, maybe we'll have enough?

I tested this before suggesting to go for Rocketry and yes, they do upgrade!

They will upgrade.

My suggestion differs from both SCT and Fred (so looks like Gator picked the right place to pause). How about letting Sparta fall, sign a brief cease fire with HC, and then attack both German cities? We have stacks near both and Asoka can get to both fairly quickly, plus they are on the way to JC's cities anyway. (Otherwise we're just going to have to retrace our steps and go back to Germany.) Disadvantage is it gets us to Rome later, but I'm thinking that Asoka is not going to get there very fast anyway. We can reduce the delay a little by declaring on Julius just before Asoka takes the German cities. That will keep our units in place at the southern border of German territory. We'd also use our galleons, perhaps chained, to get newly built units down and around to Rome.

I think this suggestion has some merit.

The stack at Sparta can get to Berlin just as quickly as it can get to Tiwanaku. The stack headed for Madrid is located north of Hamburg so it is one turn to Asoka's territory and then we can move on Hamburg, requiring two more turns.

Fred's defenses at Hamburg consist mostly of LB's now and he is more technologically advance. In addition, taking out Fred would provide us a clear path for Asoka to move into Roman territory.

Once we have Berlin, we could then attack HC at Tiwanaku, move our third stack to Berlin and, with the stack that takes Hamburg, attack Madrid. Tiwanaku stack could then take Karakorum, new stack at Berlin goes for Antium while the Madrid stack heads for Rome. We can position our naval assets near Beshbalik to jump those units to Rome should reinforcements be needed there. That only leaves Beshbalik and Kyoto (Toku) to deal with.

 

[Frederiksberg]

We could decrease the research percentage to 60, or even 50, to keep from losing half our gold that we need for upgrades?

I think we could decrease the research percentage but the question is if we want to? If we want Biology, research rate should be kept as high as possible because Beijing has so many research multipliers. Anyone care to count the population again? We need the total pop and a number for the pop on our continent.

It is 200 Gold for each LB to Rifle and 245 Gold for Archer to Gren. Perhaps giving those Archers to Asoka for upgrade would be best. There isn't much Gold around atm. Once Asoka takes Sparta, maybe we'll have enough?

We can probably get 180 from Louis and Caesar byt trading Constitution and simply demanding them from Caesar. With the gold coming from the capture of Sparta we probably have enough to upgrade a couple of units. If we think we can do without Biology we can ask Asoka for some gpt (I think we can get around 50 gpt).

The stack at Sparta can get to Berlin just as quickly as it can get to Tiwanaku. The stack headed for Madrid is located north of Hamburg so it is one turn to Asoka's territory and then we can move on Hamburg, requiring two more turns.

Can't we get to Tiwanaku in two turns using the galleons? Don't have the save.. The "Madrid" stack will be delayed two turns plus we will be capturing a city that can easily be reached from Beijing later.

In addition, taking out Fred would provide us a clear path for Asoka to move into Roman territory.

We have open borders with Fred, so nothing blocks the path to Madrid. The issue with the Madrid capture is that if Fred captures first we have to declare on him making it more difficult for Asoka to get down there due to closed borders. Preventing Fred from capturing can be tricky.

Once we have Berlin, we could then attack HC at Tiwanaku, move our third stack to Berlin and, with the stack that takes Hamburg, attack Madrid. Tiwanaku stack could then take Karakorum, new stack at Berlin goes for Antium while the Madrid stack heads for Rome. We can position our naval assets near Beshbalik to jump those units to Rome should reinforcements be needed there. That only leaves Beshbalik and Kyoto (Toku) to deal with.

It's difficult to plan very far ahead because much depends on Asoka's moves. I do think that our 3rd stack can do more than just defeat Antium and that's why I would like to leave Berlin for this stack. Berlin is close to Antium and I also think it makes sense to let our Sparta stack concentrate on coastal cities assisted by our galleons.

 

[ShannonCT]

As far as I understand Asoka will normally move fast when he sees an easy target. I guess that means that we shouldn't expect Asoka to start moving against Madrid and Rome before we have eliminated most of the defenders. Madrid should be fairly quick to handle but it will take some time to get down to Rome. I think we have an opportunity to have Asoka capture Tiwanaku quite fast and from there he can enter Roman territory.

OK, capturing Tiwanaku next is good for me. And after that, I think we need to go for Antium or Karakorum, whichever we think Asoka is most likely to go for next. Antium is right up aginst German borders and would be easy for Asoka to get to. I am opposed to sending the Sparta stack all the way to Rome unless frigates reveal a very large force in Rome. Julius hasn't Chemistry or Replaceable Parts yet so if we hit him now, he shouldn't be able to resist much. If we can cripple him before he gets Rifling or Steel, we'd be making things much easier on ourselves.

Our stack is almost ready to attack Madrid. If we change plans now several turns will be lost when we close borders with Germany and our units are moved somewhere outside of German territory. I don't think we need to do any retracing. The Madrid stack can continue for Rome while the Sparta stack captures cities along the coast. We already have 3 artillery near Beijing and if we can upgrade a couple of archers to grens and produce 2-3 more artillery we have a third stack that can move against Berlin and Antium. Units produced after the 3rd stack can be used to deal with Hamburg and Kyoto.

I would suggest we gift all but one of our MPs in Beijing to Asoka, near Hamburg, so that he'll have some units free to go for Rome. I dont really see anything on the board that more artillery can't handle. I don't think we need more grens.

The stack at Sparta can get to Berlin just as quickly as it can get to Tiwanaku. The stack headed for Madrid is located north of Hamburg so it is one turn to Asoka's territory and then we can move on Hamburg, requiring two more turns.

Fred's defenses at Hamburg consist mostly of LB's now and he is more technologically advance. In addition, taking out Fred would provide us a clear path for Asoka to move into Roman territory.

I am still opposed to attacking Germany first. Fred has been significantly weakened by Julius. His GNP is way down and his Manufacturing is low. And he doesn't have Printing Press yet, so he is not likely to get Rifling even if we attack him after Julius. Julius on the other hand has just had a GNP jump, and his power is increasing. He can research Chemistry right now, and is also 2 techs from Rifling. The fact that his power graph is 50% higher than Fred's despite being behind in techs suggests a large number of inferior troops that should be killed ASAP before he has a chance to upgrade them.

 

[ShannonCT]

We have open borders with Fred, so nothing blocks the path to Madrid. The issue with the Madrid capture is that if Fred captures first we have to declare on him making it more difficult for Asoka to get down there due to closed borders. Preventing Fred from capturing can be tricky.

I notice Julius will make peace with Fred for Constitution.

 

[leif erikson]

I am still opposed to attacking Germany first. Fred has been significantly weakened by Julius. His GNP is way down and his Manufacturing is low. And he doesn't have Printing Press yet, so he is not likely to get Rifling even if we attack him after Julius. Julius on the other hand has just had a GNP jump, and his power is increasing. He can research Chemistry right now, and is also 2 techs from Rifling. The fact that his power graph is 50% higher than Fred's despite being behind in techs suggests a large number of inferior troops that should be killed ASAP before he has a chance to upgrade them.

Julius' power graph is spiking because he is in a Golden Age. He was pretty productive before the GA, now he can produce units readily.

If we're going after Julius, then wouldn't it be to our benefit to keep Fred at war with him in order to chew up some of those Golden Age units?

 

[leif erikson]

Anyone care to count the population again? We need the total pop and a number for the pop on our continent.

Just for you Fred, I counted the pop.

On our continent;
Xteam/Asoka - 86 Pop in 8 cities
Julius - 49 pop in 5 cities
Fred - 19 pop in 2 cities
Toku - 9 pop in one city
HC - 13 pop in one city
Alex - 7 pop in one city, about to fall.
Total pop on our continent = 183

On the other continent and the adjoining islands;
Cyrus - 69 pop in 5 cities
Saladin - 51 pop in 4 cities
Cathy - 40 pop in 3 cities
Louis - 35 pop in 3 cities
Hattie - 33 pop in 3 cities
Monty - 18 pop in 2 cities
Mansa - 8 pop in one city.
Total = 254

Total pop in game = 437
% pop on our continent = 41.87%

EDIT - Interesting that the requirement for % population for domination has risen to 40%. For insurance, it is starting to look like we need Biology or that we may have to visit someone on the other continent?

EDIT2 - In 7 turns, we get another Great Person. 42% chance of Scientist, 36% chance of Great Artist and 21% chance for a Great Merchant. A Scientist could be used to bulb part of Biology. An Artist could be settled in Madrid for culture and the Scientist we currently have used to bulb part of Biology. A Great Merchant,

 

[Cactus Pete]

OK, capturing Tiwanaku next is good for me. And after that, I think we need to go for Antium or Karakorum, whichever we think Asoka is most likely to go for next. Meaning we are going to ask him to go elsewhere (Madrid, then Rome), right? Antium is right up aginst German borders and would be easy for Asoka to get to. I am opposed to sending the Sparta stack all the way to Rome unless frigates reveal a very large force in Rome. Might make sense to put a few wounded units on a galleon and let them heal as they sail to Rome. Julius hasn't Chemistry or Replaceable Parts yet so if we hit him now, he shouldn't be able to resist much. If we can cripple him before he gets Rifling or Steel, we'd be making things much easier on ourselves.

I am still opposed to attacking Germany first. Fred has been significantly weakened by Julius. His GNP is way down and his Manufacturing is low. And he doesn't have Printing Press yet, so he is not likely to get Rifling even if we attack him after Julius. Julius on the other hand has just had a GNP jump, and his power is increasing. He can research Chemistry right now, and is also 2 techs from Rifling. The fact that his power graph is 50% higher than Fred's despite being behind in techs suggests a large number of inferior troops that should be killed ASAP before he has a chance to upgrade them.

I'm swayed by the kill-before-they-can-be-upgraded argument, but it's likely to take Asoka a while to get to Rome, so I'd strongly advocate our asking him to go after Madrid and then Rome (and hoping he'll attack weakened western cities on his own.)

By my quick calculation, we already have 19% of the population (about 85 citizens) and the remaining pop on our continent is about 100 (which will be reduced by capture). (Urge someone else to confirm this.) We should have just over 40% of pop after all cities are captured -- still, developing some farms would be advisable and Biology worth researching. Think land area will be a bit more of a problem, so I'd advocate a missionary, rather than a wkbt, next in Beijing.

Why does in-game unit info not show that grens can be upgraded to SAMs?

 

[leif erikson]

Why does in-game unit info not show that grens can be upgraded to SAMs?

In a way, it does. Both Rifles and Grenadiers can be upgraded to Infantry and Infantry can be upgraded to SAM Inf. The civlopedia only shows the next upgrade you can make, not the path of upgrades. I followed the yellow-brick road and it led to SAM Inf.

 

[Frederiksberg]

I notice Julius will make peace with Fred for Constitution.

We can get peace and 80 gold for Constitution. I think we should do this deal next turn right before we declare war on JC and attacks Madrid. And, as CP mentions, we should instruct Asoka to go for Madrid (and later Rome).

I would suggest we gift all but one of our MPs in Beijing to Asoka, near Hamburg, so that he'll have some units free to go for Rome. I dont really see anything on the board that more artillery can't handle. I don't think we need more grens.

I would like to upgrade at least one archer to gren for inclusion in a 3rd stack. I'm sure we can get the money for this and it's still one extra unit. Our units are coming out in a steady stream and rather than having them wait for each other it would be nice to be able to deploy early, - say when we have 2-3 units in a small stack. This leads me to the idea that we attack Antium first with the artillery that are coming out of Beijing now. This way we can keep peace and open borders with Fred for as long as possible and we can even utilize his culture and roads to get really close to Antium. Actually it looks as if we can safely move a lone artillery (e.g. the one 2N of Bombay) down next to Antium and start bombarding across the border shielded by German borders. When Antium is captured we have in a natural way formed a 3rd stack down there and can turn this against Berlin. With this plan in mind I would suggest that the Sparta stack goes to Karakorum after Tiwanaku.

Think land area will be a bit more of a problem, so I'd advocate a missionary, rather than a wkbt, next in Beijing.

That is also the way I'm leaning.

Just for you Fred, I counted the pop.

Total pop in game = 437
% pop on our continent = 41.87%

Thanks leif . This small piece of information is very important. Since we are so close to the limit I think we should continue researching Biology (with Asoka) just in case.

If we're going after Julius, then wouldn't it be to our benefit to keep Fred at war with him in order to chew up some of those Golden Age units?

It would be better, but it will be difficult to avoid that Fred captures Roman cities if they are still at war. I also like the fact that we can bombard and attack both Madrid and Antium from the safety of German territory.

 

[leif erikson]

We can get peace and 80 gold for Constitution. I think we should do this deal next turn right before we declare war on JC and attacks Madrid. And, as CP mentions, we should instruct Asoka to go for Madrid (and later Rome).

It would be better, but it will be difficult to avoid that Fred captures Roman cities if they are still at war. I also like the fact that we can bombard and attack both Madrid and Antium from the safety of German territory.

Yes, I see your point as it is more important to keep open borders with Fred while we go after Julius, at least for now.

I would like to upgrade at least one archer to gren for inclusion in a 3rd stack. I'm sure we can get the money for this and it's still one extra unit. Our units are coming out in a steady stream and rather than having them wait for each other it would be nice to be able to deploy early, - say when we have 2-3 units in a small stack. This leads me to the idea that we attack Antium first with the artillery that are coming out of Beijing now. This way we can keep peace and open borders with Fred for as long as possible and we can even utilize his culture and roads to get really close to Antium. Actually it looks as if we can safely move a lone artillery (e.g. the one 2N of Bombay) down next to Antium and start bombarding across the border shielded by German borders. When Antium is captured we have in a natural way formed a 3rd stack down there and can turn this against Berlin. With this plan in mind I would suggest that the Sparta stack goes to Karakorum after Tiwanaku.

I think this is a good way to go.

The units we gift to Asoka, should we gift them to him on the side of the map nearest Madrid? Perhaps he'll keep them there for the march on Rome?

Thanks leif . This small piece of information is very important. Since we are so close to the limit I think we should continue researching Biology (with Asoka) just in case.

You're welcome.
And I agree.

 

[Mad Professor]

Good discussion. You guys look like you're on top of it.

I am still opposed to attacking Germany first. Fred has been significantly weakened by Julius. His GNP is way down and his Manufacturing is low. And he doesn't have Printing Press yet, so he is not likely to get Rifling even if we attack him after Julius. Julius on the other hand has just had a GNP jump, and his power is increasing. He can research Chemistry right now, and is also 2 techs from Rifling. The fact that his power graph is 50% higher than Fred's despite being behind in techs suggests a large number of inferior troops that should be killed ASAP before he has a chance to upgrade them.

That's a compelling argument.

If I can just add something... When playing the test game there seemed to come a point where the AI PA partner gained such a military dominance that he became much more aggressive. I think Asoka is not far from that point - the advent of artillery is helping a lot there. I think the gift of archers to Asoka strategically placed that he can upgrade will be a big help pushing him to the point where he'll run at targets much quicker. I don't think our stacks or artillery are in much more danger without plenty of rifles or grens than they would be with them. The only thing that can make them vulnerable is a stack of about 10 cats, followed by quite a few attacks on the weakened stack by other units. If Caesar has a big stack somewhere that includes a long list of cats, they could hurt us, but that's about it.

 

[leif erikson]

The only thing that can make them vulnerable is a stack of about 10 cats, followed by quite a few attacks on the weakened stack by other units. If Caesar has a big stack somewhere that includes a long list of cats, they could hurt us, but that's about it.

Have a look at Kyoto and the area around it. Toku has exactly this mix, although his offensive units are relics. He is not exactly happy with us. My only concern at this point is most of our Artillery being south in Rome and Toku pulls a back stab and takes Asoka's religious city.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Have a look at Kyoto and the area around it. Toku has exactly this mix, although his offensive units are relics. He is not exactly happy with us. My only concern at this point is most of our Artillery being south in Rome and Toku pulls a back stab and takes Asoka's religious city.

I can't recall an AI sneak attacking when I had superior power. Can anyone? When we get to Japan, that may be the time to sacrifice our workers to draw some of his cats out.

 

[rrau]

We will lose pop by having cities flip from Rome to Germany to India. (I think 1 pop lost per city capture) Unless we're able to attack Rome and Germany simultaneously, but I don't think Asoka could handle that.

 

[DJMGator13]

Sorry for the delay, wasn't feeling well Monday and work was extra long today. As CP noted the decision on who/where to attack next is exactly why I paused in mid turn.

JC recently captured Madrid, so one would assume that he sent a large offensive stack to that city. We may want to leave Freddy and JC at war and see if we can pick off JC's next stack if makes a move on Freddy with our 3rd Stack. We can still move on Madrid and Antium with our 2 current stacks.

Attacking either Freddy or JC first each has their own merits and if JC wasn't in a GA there would almost be no question to hit him first. If we go for Freddy first will Asoka be ready to take those cities or will we just make it that much easier for JC?

I can play some tomorrow if we're ready for me to play another turn or two.

 

[leif erikson]

Sorry for the delay, wasn't feeling well Monday and work was extra long today. As CP noted the decision on who/where to attack next is exactly why I paused in mid turn.

Hope you are feeling better.

JC recently captured Madrid, so one would assume that he sent a large offensive stack to that city. We may want to leave Freddy and JC at war and see if we can pick off JC's next stack if makes a move on Freddy with our 3rd Stack. We can still move on Madrid and Antium with our 2 current stacks.

I asked about this and Fred provided a good reason why.

It would be better, but it will be difficult to avoid that Fred captures Roman cities if they are still at war. I also like the fact that we can bombard and attack both Madrid and Antium from the safety of German territory.

And this from SCT

I notice Julius will make peace with Fred for Constitution.

Attacking either Freddy or JC first each has their own merits and if JC wasn't in a GA there would almost be no question to hit him first. If we go for Freddy first will Asoka be ready to take those cities or will we just make it that much easier for JC?

Attacking JC first is best I think. SCT provided the key reason.

I am still opposed to attacking Germany first. Fred has been significantly weakened by Julius. His GNP is way down and his Manufacturing is low. And he doesn't have Printing Press yet, so he is not likely to get Rifling even if we attack him after Julius. Julius on the other hand has just had a GNP jump, and his power is increasing. He can research Chemistry right now, and is also 2 techs from Rifling. The fact that his power graph is 50% higher than Fred's despite being behind in techs suggests a large number of inferior troops that should be killed ASAP before he has a chance to upgrade them.

I can play some tomorrow if we're ready for me to play another turn or two.

If you are well and satisfied with the discussion, please proceed. And start kicking Julius into history's dustbin!!

 

[Frederiksberg]

We may want to leave Freddy and JC at war and see if we can pick off JC's next stack if makes a move on Freddy with our 3rd Stack.

If we leave them at war we risk that Fred captures JC's weakened cities before Asoka. We can get peace and 80 gold from JC for Constitution and can also sell Constitution to Louis for 100 gold.

We can still move on Madrid and Antium with our 2 current stacks.

I think our Sparta stack should go for Tiwanaku and then Karakorum while the other stack moves on Madrid and Rome. Fresh units out of Beijing move down to Antium and gradually build up a stack while attacking across the border from the safety of German territory.

I can play some tomorrow if we're ready for me to play another turn or two.

I think you are ready to go . Unless, of course, you want to continue the discussion. Remember to stop starvation in Delhi by giving away our cow to Asoka. Then get his corn when it comes online to stop the temporary starvation in Beijing and give him our sheep as well. Next build in Beijing is a missionary for Cuzco to get faster border expansion. This will allow us to keep the GS for another city or for helping with Biology. Also remember to switch our research to Biology next turn so that Asoka finishes Rocketry and we get first pick to put the Apollo project in our production queue.

 

[DJMGator13]

I can get a few more turns in tonight.

 

[DJMGator13]

Through the end of T177 - 1170AD

Madrid down to a very wounded cat and we're set to attack Tiwanku. Asoka has a unit with our stack, if he waits 1 turn the city will be his. But there are more in the area. Our frigates are still by Tiw as they just sank 2 Roman galleys. We have SAMs and I've qued up Apollo (plus 1 extra SAM for the overflow).

I've traded our cow and sheep to Asoka and then managed to get sheep right back from Cyrus, so this will let us free up the rice or corn later to give back to Asoka to aid his growth.

I've played 13 turns so far, I was thinking about running it to turn 180 for the handoff just to put us back on a standard turn number. That should let the next person have some fun with JC and Freddy. HC should be gone by then.

Here's the save for comments.