SGOTM 08 - Fifth Element

[BLubmuz]

I think there's no match against a bureaucratic capital, especially for a new city.
I suppose we'll have to pollute the capital with the GLH and i'm guessin' we'll build the Glib there, too. In my tests it took too long in other cities.
Our first GP will be a prophet (if this plan goes right, fingers crossed) and he will born in Parma. BTW this is the name i propose for city 2 (pigs = ham, and Parma is famous for its well seasoned ham). After Oracle/library we can start Artemis and use city 3 for military production, after library, of course.

 

[culdeus]

I think there's no match against a bureaucratic capital, especially for a new city.
I suppose we'll have to pollute the capital with the GLH and i'm guessin' we'll build the Glib there, too. In my tests it took too long in other cities.
Our first GP will be a prophet (if this plan goes right, fingers crossed) and he will born in Parma. BTW this is the name i propose for city 2 (pigs = ham, and Parma is famous for its well seasoned ham). After Oracle/library we can start Artemis and use city 3 for military production, after library, of course.

Right a bureau will definitely produce it much faster, but perhaps we are willing to take the speed hit for no pollution. Worth at least seeing how long the delay at the cows would be.

Our first GP will be a prophet (if this plan goes right, fingers crossed) and he will born in Parma.

Wait, what? The plan is to have the academy come in around 67 via great scientists. Correct?

 

[WastinTime]

All of us playing some advanced test knows it, but better remember: Shaka will NOT trades techs.
He accepts OB, nothing else.

Not true. We can either gift him a little tech or share confucianism with him. Once Pleased, he trades nicely. So, getting the +2 for Open Borders is helpful, sign that, like you said.

 

[WastinTime]

I did GLH and Colossus in the capitol (the GM city), so GLH is not polluting. GLib is. We don't want any scientists after the first. Pyramids is OK. We can always use a GE.

GLib is going to hurt our GMen plan. Maybe put it in the cow city. If built too early it will beat the Prophet out. Maybe have the capitol do all the GM and GE wonders and we just hope the RNG gives us at least 2 of each.
I doubt we will build Artemis though.

 

[Mesix]

I think we should build the MS on the Marble island. I know it is a NW, but a wonder none the less. It will help us to get good production out of that location. I think we should settle right on the marble and work both fish tiles (north and west).

We need to discuss which NW will go in which city. It takes careful planning to get the synergy from the two in each city and get them all built.

BTW...we will need two more GS if we plan to build all of the corporate HQ.

 

[WastinTime]

I decided to work the tech tree backwards. I put in some possible places to stop research. Here's how it looks.

...
Nationalism
MilTradition
GunP (only needed if we want cuirassier)
Constitution
Democracy (statue)

STOP (I think we will have too much conquering left as well as wonder building to stop here. However, there are only 12 wonders left)

Chem
Bio
Steel (IW)
Banking
Economics
Corporation (Wall)
ReplParts
Steam Power
Assembly (pentagon)
Fascism (Mt. Rush)
Medicine (GM)
Refrigeration (GM)
RailRoad (GE)
Combust (GE)

STOP (the beauty of this stop point is that it ends with a flurry of instant wonders (corporations) But the last two are GE's so those could be used on any wonder.

Industrialism
Plastics (3GD) and Ethanol (GS)

STOP

Rifling,
Artillery,
Rocketry Aluminum (GS)
...
Robotics (SpaceElev)

After I made this list, I realized that we probably won't need either of the 2 GS corporations.

 

[BLubmuz]

Wait, what? The plan is to have the academy come in around 67 via great scientists. Correct?

Of course.
I meant the first after the GS.

WT, so the capital can build the GE + GM wonders, the cow city the GLib and the pig/ivory the GP+GA?
This sounds good, a GM is useful.

I think we should build the MS on the Marble island. I know it is a NW, but a wonder none the less. It will help us to get good production out of that location. I think we should settle right on the marble and work both fish tiles (north and west).

Yeah, absolutely. I did this on my test and it's a wonderful city. We can revolt to Caste in the same turn with Bureacracy.

BTW...we will need two more GS if we plan to build all of the corporate HQ.

I hope we'll arrive at our target before those Corps are avaible. But in any case we'll have the free GS from Physics

 

[WastinTime]

WT, so the capital can build the GE + GM wonders, the cow city the GLib and the pig/ivory the GP+GA?
This sounds good, a GM is useful.

"...pig/ivory the GP+GA" ... GA? We don't want any GA (other than the free Music one)

I'm still scared of how the GLib (+8 birth rate) will make GS's too fast. Maybe the research boost is worth it. Especially if we go for the Pyramids.

 

[BLubmuz]

"...pig/ivory the GP+GA" ... GA? We don't want any GA (other than the free Music one)

I'm still scared of how the GLib (+8 birth rate) will make GS's too fast. Maybe the research boost is worth it. Especially if we go for the Pyramids.

We'll build (or try to) the Parthenon after ToA. Some GA pollution can happen.
I agree we don't want them, but remember the Golden Ages in BtS.

There are lots of GA wonders. A useful one is MoM, don't you agree? And the Taj. just to skip the SoZ and more i can't remember now.
Some is useful, too.

 

[WastinTime]

Has anyone tried to figure out when the GMen will pop out? Just a quick guess:

GProphet t125, GM t160, GE t200? There's not a lot of room for GS and GA. Getting GE's is not like getting GA's for a culture win. You can't just run a ton of Engineers.

ToA gives GM points, but gives you a free priest for GP points, yuk. I think we can get away with only 1 GProphet (for confu shrine). The AI loves to build shrines. So, I think we might want to stall the GProphet. Hmm...shrine income is good, so, maybe pop 1 prophet, but then stall on them big time. (i.e. build very few prophet wonders.) I could probably use just 1 more for Islam (or a golden age)

I'm also not impressed with 100% trade yield. Before we attack Shaka, we better have someone else to trade with.

 

[BLubmuz]

I'm also not impressed with 100% trade yield.

It's a wonder i don't like much. But it gives the free priest, and we'll have great chances of a GP for the Confu shrine. But if we manage the GLH it becomes a nice wonder for a coastal city.

ahh and it's cheap with marble.

 

[dutchfire]

I'm also not impressed with 100% trade yield. Before we attack Shaka, we better have someone else to trade with.

We will have an off-continent city (on the marble), which should give us a +2 traderoute in every city. With the Great lighthouse and a 2/3 shaka cities, our ToA city should be bringing in 8*2=16 commerce/turn in traderoutes.

 

[WastinTime]

I'm still not sure, but the ToA would go in Parma, right? So the GProphet city might accidentally make a GM, but we don't want the GM/GE city to accidentally pop a GProphet. I'd rather be more certain on what Gmen we get. Maybe I'm worrying for nothing we'll have a couple extra of each kind to use on golden ages, but it doesn't feel like that will happen. At least not until t250-300.

 

[BLubmuz]

IMHO our philosophy must be:
one wonder built, one less to capture
one wonder built by us, one less by our opponents, with its benefits, big or small

If the wonders are cheap, let's go build them.
In Parma we'll have GPr points running for awhile, then ToA will put 2 of GM and 3 of GPr.
The probabilities will be for a GPr, but i've seen (and i suppose you all did) a GP born with 5% chances, if not less.

as i already said, our strategy must be closer to a time game than to a SR.

The aim in a time game is arrive to FT ASAP, possibly around the half game with all the wonders owned but the Sistine.
Why no Sistine? long to explain.

 

[WastinTime]

IMHO our philosophy must be:
one wonder built, one less to capture
one wonder built by us, one less by our opponents, with its benefits, big or small

Interesting philosophy. I'm not saying I disagree, but there's another:

Each wonder built by the AI is free. We need to capture the cities anyway for domination.

I'm not sure which one I agree with yet. I (we all) probably need play one game all the way to the end.

If all we do is build wonders, it will be turn 150 and we won't have any military. Longbows will be out, and we still need to win the game somehow.

 

[culdeus]

I did a Plan A. Just to see. For the record.

Academy 56
Oracle 69
Mids 96

The approach (plana) we have might be off on the worker/city ratio and might lead to some poor tile working. Some of the delay to the mids was attempting to correct that. A t90 mids is feasible.

 

[BLubmuz]

I think that all the sentences in bold (mine and WT's one) are correct, and mainly completing.

I don't wanna build ALL the early wonders, just:
Oracle
Pyramids
GLH
GLib
Parthenon
ToA
Colossus
MoM
HG

all are really useful for a reason or another.

Culdeus, your test for plan A tells us it was a good plan, but with the already expressed countersides:
- Only 2 cities
- Oracle in capital (GP pollution)
- Long time to build the Oracle

We choose plan B because:
- 4 cities
- no GP pollution
- Oracle build time reasonable

low risk of unsuccess when plan A has a lower one.
but we can find time to reconsider, if the majority so wish.

 

[Mesix]

I think that it is importat to note that if/when great people emerge, it is important that they not be wasted. If we have a mixed pool and the planned type does not appear, the great person should be saved instead of settling or starting a golden age. If we pop a 2nd GP, it may be necessary for him to build a shrine in a captured holy city if the AI failed to build it. If we pop a GA, it may be beneficial to keep him around to found a corporation later to get that one extra wonder. There is no guarantee that we will be the first to every tech that gives a free great person. It is best ot have some saved just incase the best laid plans of mice and men do not come through.

 

[culdeus]

Plan B certainly looks to be the winner. I've tried a few times to do the Oracle faster and can't execute it any better. I don't think the test game reflects the actual hammer/commerce to date and might stretch all dates later out by one, but it's still very effective. Do you have the testsave at t74?

What are the objectives for the Confucian missionary? I usually bunk him up on a galley with a scout and go pop goody huts and hope to find a far off AI to convert.

 

[BLubmuz]

I wish to imform you that i'm changing internet provider, and i can be cut from the net for a couple days.
Maybe not, but just in case.

Back to topic, not much activity, where is GB?
He talked about a plan, then disappeared.

Test save? i got an old one, i guess the one which put us to plan B.
If it is what you want.
hmm i can't upload it, i already posted, look for it in one of my previous posts.

Missionary? we got a scout for exploration (if he survives).
Better park him for awhile waiting if Confu will autospread, then use him in one of our cities if not.