SGOTM 08 - Fifth Element

WastinTime · Oct 17, 2008

The problem with beating everyone down and then grabbing a conquest when we feel like it is that we lose a lot of our trade route income and some fill in tech trades. Plus the cost of maintaining a pressence on the other continent. Right now I don't see anything in the next few TS which would affect our victory, so I think we can roll along and see how things look in the future.

I think I can guarantee one thing: Space Colony is not going to happen. Too much extra tech, extra building and extra wasted turns waiting to arrive after launch. If space parts were wonders, that would be a different story.

MacBalt · Oct 17, 2008

BLubmuz said:
Balth, green light on!
just:
don't give Shaka alpha or MC
we need a trireme somewhere to protect our nets, before the war starts.

All right BLbumuz -- thanks! Except I'm going to be delayed for a few hours. Will have to postpone until early afternoon -- about 3-4 hours from now. Apologies.

I'll probably skip the trireme for now unless someone wants to suggest a good place to put it into the build order for one of our cities. Any ideas?

dutchfire said:
@Balthalion: Please check Shaka for "I've got enough on my hands right now" messages every now and then.

Will do. I'll make a note of it each turn.

HolyHandGrenade said:
lurkers comment: I just made some tests in the current Major 36 gauntlet. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7321413&postcount=93
So your further observations may be based on the results there

This was very interesting -- thanks HHG. I'm not sure how to make use of the knowledge right now though because we don't have anything to trade with Shaka. Anyone have any suggestions or see some other way to put this information to work?

WastinTime said:
You mentioned not growing to size 8. Remember that in 5 turns (forge) we get +1 happy. Confu is another possible happy, and then there's the +3 happy from the pyramids soon. So be sure to keep the food comin'. The capitol is working both its seafood, yes?

You're right. I would have missed that -- thanks! Will keep the growth going as much as possible.

culdeus said:
Just double up the workers on the workshop. Only take 2 turns that way.

Yes -- I added this to the revised plan, but thanks for the reminder.

culdeus · Oct 17, 2008

One thing that you can say from graph gazing is that we probably have the most invested in early wonders at this point and the least in war. There were a couple of shaka rushes executed and it looks like some teams got some random events or something that prompted a 1turn TS and re-save. In any situation we have the GLH rolling which is not represented in our culture graph yet and that will put us on the highest trajectory by far of teams that are to our turn count.

WastinTime · Oct 17, 2008

Can't we trade shaka's rice for a pig, seafood, or cow soon (or some health--not happy resource)?
We should hook those up and do a trade if it really keeps him off our back 10 turns, or longer.

greatbeyond · Oct 17, 2008

I started this reply 4 hours ago and there have been all sorts of replies since, so bear with the cross posts.

WastinTime said:
The victory discussion is interesting, but I see you didn't mention domination. If we owned our entire continent. How many more tiles do we need? What if we also owned all the larger islands? How close are we?

I mentioned it before and I don't believe our number of visible tiles has increased much (~350)
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7326436&postcount=369

Looking at the info screen we have one unk AI with 3 wonders and one with 1.
Out of 7 AIs and us:
we are 6th largest in territory (57K) with 7 & 8 11K Sq Km behind us. The best is 103K. I'm ok for now with this but it does mean there is one civ that became huge quickly. I would suspect they're the ones with the 3 wonders and will be our main source of trouble.

We are dead last in military. This worries me more than a little. We should have the tech advantage over Jao and Shaka so that we don't need quite as many units, but we should ramp up our production.

Engineering - I would skip the Granary and start the Forge. There is more than enough food to get it to size 6 quickly, but it is Hammer poor.
Stoneopolis - I would go LH before Library as it will take forever to grow, even with the Sheep pastured. An alternative to this would be having Parma build a WB first for the clams. I would then follow this up with a Trireme from Parma.

Parma - skip the Granary for now. We can only grow a little more, so the Granary won't have much of an effect now. I would build a WB first for the Stoneopolis' Clams. I would then follow this up with a Trireme and then either military or Chichen Itza. The reason for the Trireme is a counter to Barb Galleys which should be showing up soon from the South and West.

Wonders: I am torn between the need to build wonders and the necessity for building our military.
Ideally I would prefer Parma build the Pyramids but with it's pop growing slowly, it is a gamble. Chichen Itza appears to be the best fit to keep it a GP farm.
Fifthburg could complete the Pyramids and then hopefully the HG
Stoneopolis should build the Moai statues. This will turn it into a production powerhouse.

I agree with WT about a trade with Shaka to keep him off our back a little longer.

If we can turn Fifthburg into a GE farm it will help tremendously toward our wonder building. I have managed to do this in a test game.

culdeus · Oct 17, 2008

If we are voting on the engineering build I'm for granary. Will help whip turnover much more than the hammer bonus from the forge on what? one hammer tile worth anything? I always consider granary builds to be strategic and perfect when you are waiting for a tech to build what you want.

To truly just roll over shaka we'll need barracks and granary and forge in parma and barracks/granary in engineering. Build the forge after we've popped enough maces to do the job on shaka and then convert to cats.

I am assuming we will revolt to slavery when we revolt to representation.

WastinTime · Oct 17, 2008

culdeus said:
If we are voting on the engineering build I'm for granary. Will help whip turnover much more than the hammer bonus from the forge on what?

The forge is mainly so we can run an engineer ASAP.

MacBalt · Oct 17, 2008

WastinTime said:
Can't we trade shaka's rice for a pig, seafood, or cow soon (or some health--not happy resource)?
We should hook those up and do a trade if it really keeps him off our back 10 turns, or longer.

Right now Shaka will only take Marble, Gold, or Ivory. Gold and Ivory are out. What about the marble? Do we really need it for 10 turns? Might Shaka be more likely to get distracted by trying to build a wonder if we trade it to him? Hmm...

greatbeyond said:
Engineering - I would skip the Granary and start the Forge. There is more than enough food to get it to size 6 quickly, but it is Hammer poor.

Good thought, but we'll have more room to grow after the pyramids, so I'm inclined to stay with the granary unless there are more arguments out there for the forge.

greatbeyond said:
Stoneopolis - I would go LH before Library as it will take forever to grow, even with the Sheep pastured. An alternative to this would be having Parma build a WB first for the clams. I would then follow this up with a Trireme from Parma.

A lighthouse will take 50% more time than a library with our creative leader bonus, so I'm not sure, especially now that we've got 10 hammers invested in the Library. I do like the idea of getting nets on those clams though. Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

greatbeyond said:
Parma - skip the Granary for now. We can only grow a little more, so the Granary won't have much of an effect now. I would build a WB first for the Stoneopolis' Clams. I would then follow this up with a Trireme and then either military or Chichen Itza. The reason for the Trireme is a counter to Barb Galleys which should be showing up soon from the South and West.

But we'll be able to grow a lot more with the pyramids and representation. I agree about the WB though, so will change the build order in Parma to: Finish Library (3t), begin Work Boat (4t), then Granary (4t).

greatbeyond said:
I agree with WT about a trade with Shaka to keep him off our back a little longer.

How do you feel about trading the marble?

culdeus said:
If we are voting on the engineering build I'm for granary. Will help whip turnover much more than the hammer bonus from the forge on what? one hammer tile worth anything? I always consider granary builds to be strategic and perfect when you are waiting for a tech to build what you want.

WastinTime said:
The forge is mainly so we can run an engineer ASAP.

@ WT: I'm still inclined to go granary first. Isn't growth in Engineering a higher priority than running the engineer ASAP? Putting the granary in the build order looks like it will end up being only a 3-4 turn delay on the forge, if that.

Here is the plan so far. I'll play about one hour from now.

Revised PPPlan:

TURNS TO PLAY: Finish 95, play 96-105, stop before ending turn 105.
RESEARCH PATH: Finish Machinery, begin Optics.
INHERITED TURN: Cancel orders.
BUILD ORDERS:
- Fifthburg: Finish Forge (5t), begin Pyramids.
- Parma: Finish Library (3t), begin Work Boat, then Granary.
- Marbles: Building Library (20t).
- Engineering: Finish Library (3t), begin Granary, then Forge.
- Stoneopolis: Building Library (40t), then Lighthouse?
CITY PRIORITIES:
- Fifthburg: Prioritize Hammers but keep growth high for increased happy cap. Work current tiles.
- Parma: Prioritize Hammers & GPP (Priest). Keep food growth set at least at +1. Work current tiles.
- Marbles: Prioritize Food for increased happy cap. Then Workers & Settlers? Work current tiles.
- Engineering: Prioritize Food for increased happy cap. Needs mine on hill 2S1E (& roads). Work current tiles.
- Stoneopolis: Prioritize Food. Hook Stone first, then pasture sheep. Work current tiles.
WORKERS:
- Worker 1 (in Marbles): Help finish workshop. Load onto galley & move to Fifthburg. Pre-mine forest hills (river first).
- Worker 2 (near Marbles): Finish workshop. Load onto galley & move to Fifthburg. Pre-mine forest hills.
- Worker 3 (on Iron): Move to pre-mined hill & finish mine. Continue to Fifthburg for Pyramid chops.
- Worker 4 (on Stone): Finish Quarry (3t) & road (2t). Pasture Sheep.
MILITARY: Move missionary to spy on Shaka’s territory. Move galley to post on coast tile near Shaka.
TECHNOLOGY TRADING:
- No trades likely this turnset.
- No trades for Agriculture or Archery.
- Technology gifts? – None this turnset.
RESOURCE TRADING: Shaka will trade rice, but we have nothing to give him yet (maybe marble now? ...or sheep later).
CIVICS CHANGES: None this turnset.
POLITICAL DEMANDS:
- Give Shaka what he wants, including techs, resources, and/or convert to Confucianism.
- Do not give in to any other demands that would require anarchy (religion or civics change).
- Give in to all other demands for resources or techs.
- Do not join any wars.
FINAL PLAY NOTES: If any significant new unexpected event occurs, stop and consult the team about our options.

WastinTime · Oct 17, 2008

granary is so cheap we can probably do it before the forge, but I'd go either way.
You make a very good point about the happy from pyramids (if we get it) allowing mucho growth. And someone mentioned slavery --which likes a granary.

I'm against the Lighthouse (but I think it is also a cheap build for our leader isn't it?)
Workboat does need to come from somewhere, but we keep sacrificing our military. Let Stoney build it's own workboat. Soon it will have sheep, stone, mine/desert to work. Finish the library first, then wb. (or have Marbles build a WB)

Marble trade seems good.

MacBalt · Oct 17, 2008

WastinTime said:
I'm against the Lighthouse (but I think it is also a cheap build for our leader isn't it?)

Expansive gets cheap Granaries and Harbors, but not Lighthouses.

WastinTime said:
Workboat does need to come from somewhere, but we keep sacrificing our military. Let Stoney build it's own workboat. Soon it will have sheep, stone, mine/desert to work. Finish the library first, the wb.

So Parma would be back to: Finish Library (3t), then Granary (4t) -- possibly followed by Trieme (6t) or Forge (14t)? Culdeus (& other warmongers), how would you prioritize the Trireme in this build order?

WastinTime said:
Marble trade seems good.

Okay, I'm inclined to agree. If anyone has an objection to this please speak up, 'cause otherwise I'll do it first thing...

MacBalt · Oct 17, 2008

Just noticed we are pretty low on gold (25g) and running at -1/turn. That is right about at the edge of what I would call minimum safety for random events.

Science is @80% now, with Machinery in 8 turns. If we cut science to 70% we get +7 gpt and Machinery gets bumped to 9 turns. I am inclined to (at least) do this for one turn and then bump science back up to 80% again and let it run back down to 25.

Another approach would be to alternate 0%/100% science. If we go 0% science for one turn it will net us +62 gold. Running 100% science would (right now) lose us -16 gpt, but gain us +105 science per turn. 80% science gets us 84 science per turn. So, let's see... quick calculation (probably wrong) means in 4 turns...

105 * 3 = 315 science; +62 - (16*3= 48) = +14 gold.

vs.

84 * 4 = 336 science; -1 * 4 = -4 gold

Guess I just talked myself out of that. I'm sure someone out there can do better though. What say y'all?

----EDIT----
Okay, if we stretch that out to five turns, things look a little different:

105 * 4 = 420 science; +62 - (16*4 = 64) = -2 gold

vs.

84 * 5 = 420 science; -1 * 5 = -5 gold

HMMMM....

-------EDIT #2------------
With two more libraries coming online in 3-4 turns I think running 0% science for a couple of turns and then switching to 100% science is worth considering seriously. The new libraries will improve the calculations above, I think. Will someone please double-check me on this?

MacBalt · Oct 17, 2008

Okay, no advice.

Going to damn the torpedoes and play anyway running 0% science for two turns followed by 100% science until either Machinery or 25 gold. It might delay machinery by a turn or so, but I don't think we would be able to begin building maces by then anyway. If this screws up the game plan then I promise to crawl back into hiding and grovel obsequiously to everyone for the rest of the game.

dutchfire · Oct 17, 2008

Go for it.

culdeus · Oct 17, 2008

Sounds good. I usually allow for 40gold buffer to be safe.

MacBalt · Oct 17, 2008

Bad news guys. Pyramids BIFL on turn 100 -- just when Fifthburg's forge completed.

I decided I'd better stop so the team can re-think our plan.

Shaka has lots on his hands now too, so I started an Axe in Parma after the Library. Everything else is according to plan, I think. Machinery in 3 turns, IIRC.

The save is attached (and uploaded now too).

The Autolog:

Spoiler :

Session Turn Log:

Spoiler :

greatbeyond · Oct 17, 2008

No Pyramids will mean a slight change in plans, I say build the Colossus in Fifthburg. Along with TGLH it will make it a GM farm.
As for what has happened, no looking back, we have to reassess and move forward.

culdeus · Oct 17, 2008

Bad luck. First setback. Things had been going too smooth to this point. Lets ramp up the war machine and get S dead now applying the chops to maces. Will save us going to slavery and can allow most other cities to continue on their Plan.

WastinTime · Oct 17, 2008

well we don't really need those granaries then. Bummer about losing the GE points, the happiness too. Wasn't all that excited about the +3 science.

BLubmuz · Oct 17, 2008

Sh*t!!!

Pyramids in 400 BC on Monarch?
ToA is OK, i expected to loose it, but i was pretty sure we can build mids.

and we're without any more luxuries.

We need to draw a strategy to Astro ASAP.
We need 2 GS to pop, and probably convert to confu for happiness.

I'll see the save tomorrow, now it's too late.

HG are usually safe until the early ADs. I guess we need more turns for the Baray than for the HG.
But pyramids too are usually safe until 100 BC.

Maybe the GLib is the way to go... in Engineering.
But we need Lit, so we must delay our caravels.
Tomorrow i'll post some alternate plan to vote on.

In any case, no problem:
if he aims J. he will be weak on the east side, if he aims us, we'll be spared a lot of WW... we have enough to defend now, and maces are behind the corner... poor Shaka, in any case.

MacBalt · Oct 17, 2008

Yeah, but things could have been worse. At least we didn't lose the mids a turn or two from completion -- wasting the chops and all. What about GB's idea about the Colossus, or even the Hanging Gardens (to take advantage of our stone). It seems a shame to waste the extra 50% for stone now that we finally have it hooked up.

I suppose Shaka needs to be dealt with quickly now though. Should be quick enough with maces though. Maybe there will still be time for HG later?

Edit: Only one granary in progress, I think (in Engineering). I postponed the one in Parma when Shaka said he had stuff on his hands. Probably good in hindsight, but do we think Shaka is aimed at us or at Joao?

Edit #2: Also, the 0%/100% science thing seems to have worked out well. I use that in my games a lot. Maybe we should think about it as a general item for our pre-play plans? It appears to provide a good buffer against random events while at the same time staying competitive with other science strats. What do y'all think?

x-posted edits with BLub's edits.

SGOTM 08 - Fifth Element

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