SGOTM 08 - Geezers

[erikthecelt]

Let's try to settle on our next objective. I think we have two choices:

1. Eliminate Shaka
2. Add 2 more cities while holding off Shaka

Either way our immediate need to change civics and build 2 axes + 2 spears (1 pair for the choke point, 1 pair to be annoying).

As an aside, any chopping of trees should go into worker builds so we get the additional 25% bonus on hammers.

@Misotu - welcome to geezerhood!

 

[Sam_Yeager]

I'm in the 'eliminate Shaka now' camp. Misotu has done a good job of selling the advantages of Bureaucracy & Caste to me so I'm content to go down that route. Converting to confucianism is fine by me but I wonder if it might be worth delaying this until after the first axe & spear are built rather than waiting through two turns of anarchy in succession.

IW as the next tech seems logical as does Sailing afterwards. Pottery and/or Ag sounds good afterwards although we might want Masonry & Construction first depending on what our scouting/pillaging axe/spear combo discover.

Oh and Misotu, I too remember living through decimalisation so count me in the over 50 group.

 

[Misotu]

Good grief. Let me guess. Thrallia, the Youngest Geezer, is actually 75 and uses the title ironically? Still, that explains our incredibly mature, considered, intelligent approach to the game Our rock line-up is going to look a bit decrepit though

I'm really undecided about the way forward - not much of a military planner - but when I have gone to war I've found that the earlier I can get to the victims, the easier they topple. We seem to be in agreement that Shaka has to go before too long so:

• Do two extra cities help us to do this faster, support/production/economy-wise? Or do they actually slow us down?
• Do we intend to keep Shaka's cities? I would say yes, at least the ones that are worth keeping, and especially if there is another civ in a position to move into the territory - in which case, do we want another 2 of our own at this stage?
• What will we need in terms of units? Will axes/swords be enough? How many?

I'm going to go with whatever people feel is right on this - The-Hawk will no doubt have some helpful comments at this stage and anyway, I think by the time we've got those 4 units built our work boat/expeditionary force may reveal more information about the quality of the cities & what units Shaka has hanging around. Just knowing whether any of the cities are on hills makes quite a difference (especially in my games. Sigh.)

@Sam_Yeager: On the 2 turns of anarchy, it depends whether the barracks builds in 1 turn or 2 after bureaucracy. If it builds in 1, then we might as well do the religious anarchy at that point because copper won't be on-stream until the following turn. Otherwise we could delay a few turns - we don't get any immediate benefit from converting at this point. We will need the extra happiness quite soon though.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

Let me guess. Thrallia, the Youngest Geezer, is actually 75 and uses the title ironically?

I believe Thrallia is actually the exception that proves the rule. Surely you must have realised by now that there was a lot of logic behind the choice of our team name?

On the 2 turns of anarchy, it depends whether the barracks builds in 1 turn or 2 after bureaucracy. If it builds in 1, then we might as well do the religious anarchy at that point because copper won't be on-stream until the following turn. Otherwise we could delay a few turns - we don't get any immediate benefit from converting at this point. We will need the extra happiness quite soon though.

Thanks for this information.

 

[Harbourboy]

Jeepers. I thought that Geezers was an ironic sort of title, in that most people who play computer games and inhabit gaming boards are about 14 years old and that anyone over 25 must be old and decrepit. I thought I was old because I remember watching the Montreal Olympics but I wasn't alive for the first moon landing or decimalisation.

I'm Gen X to you Baby Boomers.

 

[erikthecelt]

Our rock line-up is going to look a bit decrepit though

no worse than Mick and Keith.

Detailed plans - please review

HB turnset- (turn numbers are approximate – but the order of operations should be followed)

Turn 0 – switch research to IW
Revolt to cast and bureaucracy.
Both workers to road to copper
Switch Hari to build barracks
Scout boat to complete island circuit
Missionary to sleep in Yas

Turn 1 – if Yas barracks complete in 1 turn, convert to Confu
Both workers to road to copper
Switch Yas citizen from hill to cows (each turn verify that we are working clams, fish, gold, cows, copper, hills)

when a citizen is available to work a hill, check each turn to see if hiring a scientist will reduce the wait for IW

Turn 2 – workers to road cows
Yas barracks – axe
Hari continue barracks – when Hari has an extra citizen play around with the # of turns required to get a GS (sooner is better to take advantage of 50% bonus in Yas)

Turn 3 – workers complete cow road – move to gold

Turn 4 – workers start gold road
Yas axe – spear (axe goes to choke point to reinforce warrior)

Turn 5 – workers complete gold road
Yas spear – axe

Turn 6 – workers to start road to Hari – follow Misotu’s directions on the route so it is shortest distance for both Hari and elephants – complete the Hari leg first

Turn 7 – 10
Yas axe – spear – axe – axe (don’t worry if all the builds don’t fit in this plan)
Hari – see above notes

Sometime in here IW will complete – you may want to pause if iron shows up where I speculated or anywhere else we can see.

After IW switch to Sailing,

 

[AgedOne]

I am, of course, officially extremely old.
Physically, I am indeed a True Geezer, in my sixth decade of life.
Mentally. Hmm. Varies from adolescence to near-death. Must be a mid-life crisis.

I'm guessing Thrallia is actually a 7 month old child prodigy, hired by the Geezers in a desperate attempt to lower our average age.

Indeed, The Geezers do. But since AgedOne and I remember decimalisation, I think you can assume that we do it very slowly, making sure we don't strain our backs.

Don't even think about pogo-ing!! Old brittle vertebrae will turn to powder!!




Back to the plan.

As erik says, the turns are not the important thing; the sequence of event is.
I like the plan.
Tech: IW - Sailing
Civics: Bur & Caste
Religion: Conf
Workers: hook up copper, then cows, then gold, then link cities.
Builds:
Yas: Barracks, axe, spear, axe, spear, axe, axe
Hari: Barracks (then what?)

Plus the citizen MMs that are described.

I would not argue against this.

When the first axe and spear are built, they should move over towards the causeway between us and Shaka to cause him grief should he decide to push forward.

I'm looking forward to it.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

Detailed plans - please review

I haven't loaded the game to check but reading through them they look great.

Turn 6 – workers to start road to Hari – follow Misotu’s directions on the route so it is shortest distance for both Hari and elephants – complete the Hari leg first

Are the directions below what you are referring to above erik?

Hooking up resources: Just 9 roads will give copper, gold, elephants, (cow), and a direct route, crossing no rivers, from Yas towards Shaka, with a one-road spur connecting Hari too (then the two cities trade as an extra bonus). We can do this really quickly with 2 workers.

 

[erikthecelt]

Are the directions below what you are referring to above erik?

That's correct - I was too tired to go and look for them myself

 

[Harbourboy]

Whose turn is it next? Was I skipped or swapped?

 

[markh]

You were swapped, so you are up, HB ! However we should let The-Hawk state his views before continuing, too.

I am 34 btw, so also a quite young Geezer as I observe.

 

[Harbourboy]

I never realised how crusty this team was. Surely it is the most aptly named team ever. How come no teenagers ever manage to sneak in?

 

[markh]

I would build a settler while researching IW to claim it as soon as possible. I expect iron to show up in the tile erik suspects it, too. Early CR swords are always nice.

What are we planning to do with our tech lead ? Hanging Gardens and Chitchen Itza we should get easily if we start them soonish. The Pyramids would fit in nicely, too, but I guess they will be out as we are going for Shaka. A marble island city would be high on my list once we have a decent stack for Shaka.

 

[Misotu]

I never realised how crusty this team was. Surely it is the most aptly named team ever. How come no teenagers ever manage to sneak in?

:snicker: We Crusties know our own kind and we congregate in hidden corners, in the Dark Places where Youth never ventures :mwahahaha: So ... Young Man ... welcome to Crusty Heaven

By my reckoning, the rock line-up currently is:



Kind of awesome, in a crusty kind of a way, and yet lacking that certain something. Youth, maybe? Or Mick & Keith?

I've given The-Hawk honourable Crusty status, which will stand unless and until he produces a certificate to show he is under 50

I would like it to be known that, although I am a Crusty and can no longer rock in that swingy-head sort of a way, I do not have a beard. Unfortunately there is no graphic in the list for female Crusties.

I believe Thrallia is actually the exception that proves the rule. Surely you must have realised by now that there was a lot of logic behind the choice of our team name?

Call me slow if you like but I claim the honourable badge of Crusty Senility And that excuses a lot. For all I knew, you were a bunch of 12 year olds thinking "Geezers" sounded kind of You know, Youth of Today and all that. Now, in *my* day ... mutter mutter mumble gripe

I'm Gen X to you Baby Boomers.

No. Sadly, we're pre-Baby Boomers. They're new-fangled sixties persons. Now, how sad is that? On the other hand ... we invented sex, rock and Everything Else That's Important.

@erikthecelt and in a mature, kind of old and insightful yet compassionate manner, as we Crusties do so well:

I like the plan very much. My only comments would be that:

• The workers, after copper, should split up in different directions and build out independently. When it comes to building a road over a hill or forest there's no point in losing two worker turns to move into those squares when a road takes only 2 turns to build. I know HB (young, youthful and impetuous though he is) can manage this just fine, because he is, after all, a Trainee Crusty
• We should play around with scientists in Hari before it grows. I think it is only plus 1 food. So once we are working a mine or sea, we have no food to play with. Our only choice is growing for a few turns, then taking the worker off the pig for 1 turn, then growing for a few turns again, if we want to get the scientist earlier.
• I know this probably doesn't matter now, since barbarians have a habit of mysteriously disappearing. But there was a warrior hanging around that FoW - so exercise caution, Young One, as you head for the ivory

And now I need to go to sleep with a nice cup of Ovaltine and a good, warm pair of bed socks

 

[Harbourboy]

Surely you can't be pre-Baby Boomers? Wouldn't that make you over 60? I thought the first baby boomers were just about to retire?

Or does that mean you are already retired, which explains the amount of time you have to devote to micro-analysis of CivIv decisions?

 

[erikthecelt]

Well, things have been a little slow at work but as far as I know, retirement is still many years away, given the state of the stock market and all :suicide:

The lady is obviously suffering from premature senility, there was the post war baby boom that invented sex, drugs and rock and roll. Then there were the 50's boomers that really rode the wave of of the first boomers, those geriatric Stones, Beatles and Beach Bums

Good points on the plan, although by the time you get to the ivory, we should have a stream of axes and such heading West

Now for my Ovaltine (Original Malt not that new fangled chocolate dreck).

 

[Harbourboy]

So, does anyone else have any riders to Old Erik's plan? Not that my Gen X attention span will be able to focus on anything that lengthy, but I would like to hear from the wrinkly Hawk first.

 

[The-Hawk]

According to the leader guide, Shaka is an "extreme" builder of military units (no surprise). Once he is done REX, he will build military over all else. Seems we might want to go get him while he is in REX mode and not building units. The longer we wait, the worse it will be.

I am concerned that with only Yaso to produce military, it will take too long to build enough units to route him out. We need to switch Hari to production (delaying the Academy) and/or settle a 3rd city. My vote is we do both, we need to get units built quickly. This delays some other objectives, but I'd hate to let Shaka live long enough to build a big defensive stack.

I still think 3rd city is 1W of cows so we can get the grasshill and Phants into its BFC.

I would not research IW next, I'd vote Masonry-Construction first. A few cats will work wonders if Shaka has built a lot of units. Also, his capital will have some culture defense.

My rough sketch of a plan:

• Full speed ahead on research (Hari working Sci Specs): Sailing->Masonry->Construction
• Yaso follows the barracks with a couple of Axemen just in case Shaka attacks, then a settler.
• Settle one west of cows.
• After the settler, Yaso goes full military production on axemen.
• After Construction is researched, Hari puts the Sci Specs to work on mines (need to mine the other grass hill). Hari immediately builds cats. I would not waste time with barracks. Unpromoted cats will suicide just fine.
• New city build cats directly. As with Hari, no barracks, right into building cats.
• Once we have 5-6 cats and 3-4 axemen we go off to check out Shaka. If he looks too powerful, we wait for reinforcements. Otherwise...

I've given The-Hawk honourable Crusty status, which will stand unless and until he produces a certificate to show he is under 50

Sorry, I am still 3 weeks away from age 49. However, if it makes you feel better... my daughters are quite happy to point out all the grey in my mustache.

 

[markh]

I like this much more than going IW next. In this early stage cats will do us more good than swords. Shaka will never stop going for us until he is gone, so he has to vanish and the sooner the better.

 

[Harbourboy]

I don't need a leader guide to tell you from painful experience that Shaka is an extreme military builder. His senate provide him a blank cheque for military spending.

Comments on Hawk's comments, please?

And where is Thrallia?