SGOTM 08 - Geezers

[Misotu]

I would not research IW next, I'd vote Masonry-Construction first. A few cats will work wonders if Shaka has built a lot of units.

I'm very comfortable with this. My war efforts always go much better with cats and we can get them pretty quickly, while building the settler & axes in Yas. If we research IW after construction and get iron in our 3rd city, that will really help too.

A few questions/comments:

• Would it be better to leave sailing and just go masonry/construction immediately?
• We are currently building a warrior in Hari. I assume we switch back to barracks temporarily, wait for copper and Hari to be hooked up and then switch back to what will now be a spearman, to finish him before cats are on-line?
• Until Hari can build cats, I think we should micro-manage the city to run 3 science specialists as often as we can. Should be able to shave at least a couple of turns off the great scientist, the spear will still build, and we only have 3 useful tiles to work in Hari anyway, so I don't think we're desperate for that 4th population immediately. If we do that, the GS will be born on or very soon after we get construction, research rate will drop when 3rd city is founded - if it's within a turn or so we might just keep those 2 scientists going to get the academy? - especially if it speeds IW, massive production boost in 3rd city.
• Do we max growth or research or production in Yas? If growth ...
• Yas can grow in 6 - so we must either delay growth a bit or convert to Confu & use the missionary, can't hook gold by then
• Worker actions: the agreed 9 roads, agreed mine the second hill at Hari and build road on from ivory to connect 3rd city site
• You're suggesting a couple of axes initially, presumably for the choke-point. Then we can use the warrior to break the FoW to ensure our workers are safe in the ivory area and subsequently as third city garrison.

Sorry, I am still 3 weeks away from age 49. However, if it makes you feel better... my daughters are quite happy to point out all the grey in my mustache.

Grey mustache? Good enough for crusty status

I always thought the baby boomers were the kids born in the sixties, possibly due to early-onset senility. And yeah, you guys caught me out. I lied about us inventing Everything Important. I just assumed that the young 'uns would be too young to know any better

Not retired - part-time and a very fast typist, hence the number of posts

I've been looking at the graphs on the progress site. Culture and power are quite interesting-looking but unfortunately I don't have erikthecelt's Mystic Graph Interpretation Power. It appears that the Misfits are doing battle with Shaka. And possibly that we're the only ones who built early libraries

 

[erikthecelt]

My thinking on the war with Shaka was to get in early, it sounds like we are going to give him time to develop and establish his production. We out hammer him now with just Yas and no bureaucracy. A raiding party of axe/spear will keep him occupied. A second party with spear and 4/5 axes can eliminate his secondary cities while additional axes are being built to take Ulundi.

Cats and axes will die a horrible death if faced with chariots and impi. Spears are a must as the BTS AI seems to love building lots of horse units. I would like to see how many hammers we have invested in the Hari barracks before deciding not to finish it. A CR1 cat has a very high survival rate against archers.

I am with Misotu on trying to get the academy, another 50% bonus on beakers in Yas will help keep us teching as we are seem to be semi-isolated. So after masonary and construction. we should finish sailing.

I don't know about mystic powers but from the culture & power graphs I would guess that CRC built Henge or Wall and then Oracle without expanding. Misfits are definitely in the build up to war and probably have the Great Wall or Henge. Smurkz have added a library. The rest of the teams are deciding how to handle Shaka.

It also looks like everyone esle went fishing and fishing boats before building warriors. Geezers are always unique

 

[Sam_Yeager]

Whether we go IW or Masonry->Construction I feel we should go axe->spear->axe-> spear in Yas after the barracks finish. With the revolt to Bureaucracy this will take us to the end of HB's turn and gives us some initial defence/pillagers/scouts against Shaka. We can continue to discuss further about the direction we want to pursue after that. However the axe/spear combo will allow us to scout so that we have some tangible data to feed into our plans.

I think it makes sense to finish the barracks in Hari so that the current warrior becomes a spear. Misotu's idea of concentrating on the science side sounds better than a fairly puny production city. HB should also be able to make good progress on the various roads.

I really don't see that much point in a third city until we have IW.

EDIT: I don't mind if we finish off Sailing first or defer it.

 

[Harbourboy]

My mystical powers of Geezer Thread Analysis suggest to me that we do not have consensus on what direction we should head to next. Given that a false move now might result in us being swatted off the face of the map by crazy Zulus, what do we need to do to agree our short term strategies here?

 

[Sam_Yeager]

My mystical powers of Geezer Thread Analysis suggest to me that we do not have consensus on what direction we should head to next.

Given that a false move now might result in us being swatted off the face of the map by crazy Zulus, what do we need to do to agree our short term strategies here?

Everybody agrees we should go after Shaka sooner rather than later. The disagreement seems to be on the best way to do this.

Erik's plan which had broad support was to use Yas as the primary military pump, Hari to speed research and be the source of a GS for an academy, research IW and send an axe/spear combo to scout/pillage Shaka.

The-Hawks's plan is to research Sailing->Masonry->Construction, build a couple of axes for defence, build a settler and found a new city 1W of the cows, change Hari to production after Construction at which point both Hari & Angkor_Thom build cats whilst Yas builds axes and then go and visit Shaka.

I have to say that I think The-Hawk is trying to do too many things. My compromise plan is mostly to follow erik's plan but research Sailing (optional)->Masonry->Construction instead of IW. After HB's turnset (10 turns) we can refine the plan.

 

[erikthecelt]

Let's try to settle on our next objective. I think we have two choices:

1. Eliminate Shaka
2. Add 2 more cities while holding off Shaka

Either way our immediate need to change civics and build 2 axes + 2 spears (1 pair for the choke point, 1 pair to be annoying).

As an aside, any chopping of trees should go into worker builds so we get the additional 25% bonus on hammers.

@Misotu - welcome to geezerhood!

Hawk has added option 3. Build 1 more city while holding off Shaka

 

[Harbourboy]

So which choice do we want to follow? Do we want to be able to strike straight for Shaka's heart, or do we want to slow him down for a while? If I read things correctly, erik's plan is more the latter (harrying him with axe/spear guerillas in the first instance) while Hawk's is more the former (building formidable siege power and mowing him down in one campaign).

 

[erikthecelt]

We have lots ot trees ready to be chopped, do we want to chop a settler? We can finish the warrior in Hari as mp for the new city.

We had better save some gold in case of tragic events. We don't want to lose the gold or copper mines for want of 10g.

I don't see any reason to finish Sailing in hawk's plan. We won't be building a galley or lighthouse for awhile. The sooner we get Construction, the sooner we can take out Shaka. That is the prime directive. If we chop some more, then Hawks plan can be executed just as quickly. I still think running the Scientists in Hari is our edge over the pack. After we take out Shaka, our next objective should be settling the marble and building the Mausoleum and GLib by way of Aesthetics and Lit.

 

[erikthecelt]

So which choice do we want to follow? Do we want to be able to strike straight for Shaka's heart, or do we want to slow him down for a while? If I read things correctly, erik's plan is more the latter (harrying him with axe/spear guerillas in the first instance) while Hawk's is more the former (building formidable siege power and mowing him down in one campaign).

Not quite how I would interpret it. My plan is more incremently tear down Shaka while Hawk's is more "Shock and Awe".

Although you might say it's a matter of technique as to how you get this done the fastest. If we chop the settler and some troops then we can afford to build the cow city. But it will take ~15 turns before it produces a cat.

 

[Harbourboy]

So is it iron working or masonry??

Are we agreed that Yas builds axes and spears?

Who builds the settler and when?

 

[Sam_Yeager]

So is it iron working or masonry??

Masonry

Are we agreed that Yas builds axes and spears?

Yep.

Who builds the settler and when?

Yas is best for the settler but don't start it until after Construction is in which will be after your turnset.

 

[AgedOne]

The way I'm looking at it is this:

While I'm slightly nervous about Shaka, I'm not going to get paranoid.
I would guess that we won't have to worry about a strong attack from him for quite a few turns - certainly enough time for us to build a good few axes and spears.

It looks like our next strategic aim is to rid ourselves of Shaka. Having decided that, we need to get it done. We've got to keep in mind our overall aims:- staggering home under the weight of all our accumulated wonders
So we can't let this war hold us up for too long.

Having said that, I feel we may already be too late to take Shaka without Construction, so I would make that a priority on our tech list.

Iron Working adds a little to our attack strength, but maybe not enough to mean we drop everything else in order to get it. So does that mean Masonry next? Masonry for Pyramids I like, but we'll have to go for the Pyramids to get them, which means stopping military production in Yas.

So I would say we go for Masonry next. We build a settler in Yas, and build Ankor Thom by the elephants. I agree that we don't need this city until we have Construction. Yas should be happy building military until then.

We need to get Yas fully productive, then Hari and then Ankor.
So the workers improve the copper, cows and gold, join the cities and then mine the hills for Hari. Once Ankor is settled they can switch their attention to the elephants and cows over there.

 

[erikthecelt]

Some Math

Yas produces 24 per turn after revolt
Hari pruces 5 per turn
New City produces 3 per turn after pasture

Axes/Spears are 35 each
Cats are 50 each

4 axes + 2 spears + 4 cats = 6 * 35 + 4 * 50 = 410

410/32 = 13 turns

3*13 = 39 New city can produce 1 axe for the stack
5*13 = 65 Hari can produce 1 cat or 2 axes for the stack
24*13 = 312 Yas will produce 4 cats and 3 axe/spears

8 axes + 2 spears = 350 = 15 turns in Yas

The bottom line is Yas will produce almost all of our attacking stack anyway. It will take time to get the new city up and running because we need our workers for the road building. Axes and spears can cripple Shaka even if it does not take out Ulundi right away.

I think a more detailed plan from The-Hawk would help at this point

 

[Misotu]

Here's the question. If we send in a raiding party (or 2) that does nothing but pillage - does Shaka go into exponential military production mode?

And if he does - once we've pillaged the key bits - can he produce anything but archers?

We can knock out axes/spears in Yas like there's no tomorrow, regardless of the research path. Both plans agree that Yas should produce military units initially, given the presence of horse definitely one+ spear plus axes. So there's no conflict here, other than on the timing of the third city and the choice of research. (OK, yeah, that's quite a lot of conflict. But heck )

I'm falling between two stools. I like the cats route, but I'm not convinced that a third city will add much, pre-iron working, other than a fall in our research rate.

Iron working will *probably* produce iron in that grassland square based on the info posted here. But it's still a gamble. Cats, on the other hand, are a sure thing, although admittedly longer to research.

Having read the discussion here, I'm convinced on the cats route - they are just *so* excellent at reducing defenders to rubble and only twice the research time of iron. I'm not so convinced on the third city - especially if we intend to annexe Shaka's little empire. The annexation will impact our economy quite sufficiently.

OK, I give up going with the flow, since there isn't a single flow (Places single-player HoF hat firmly on head - remember I totally suck on conquest so treat accordingly)

So ... how about a hybrid plan? We build military (mostly axes with a couple of spears) in Yas like there's no tomorrow, send them out in small groups escorted by a spear (at least until we've smashed his horse) and we go for construction. If it turns out that axes will do the job, fair enough. If not, they pillage, we maximise research and then wait for our cats to roll out. Build a road and our cats, produced by Yas, will be all over Shaka in a trice.

Still think Hari produces the Academy, then switches to cats if needed. I agree with erikthecelt that, if the barracks is a few turns away, promoted cats are worth having. Thing is ... a settler currently takes 6 turns in Yas. In 6 turns, Yas will build 3+ axemen. Or 3 cats. No way that third city will produce anything like 3 cats pre-iron-working in the time-scale. We'll be lucky to get a single cat. Same with Hari. We put everything we had into bureaucracy partly because of this - Yas = military uber-factory. If necessary, we suicide a couple of axemen to take out each of Shaka's satellite cities, as Erikthecelt suggests. And then we have our third city. And maybe our fourth ... and for a lower cost than a single settler in Yas.

If we go cats, no third city. If we go iron-working, third city. I vote cats.

That's what I just talked myself into. I've probably over-looked something mega as usual (terrible warrior) Ovaltine time (no dreck, erikthecelt. Only original over here ).


Edited to add: We do need to take care with the pillaging and rampaging. Hitting sudden and hard with a big force is a Good Thing - hanging around with insufficient units just provokes military build-up and makes the job twice as hard. I know The-Hawk has had this experience, because he has posted to this effect elsewhere. Shock & Awe is terribly effective, and unit-economic. With or without cats.

 

[Misotu]

Cross-post with erikthecelt. I think we've reached a similar conclusion, separately. It's probably the original Ovaltine

 

[Misotu]

We've got to keep in mind our overall aims:- staggering home under the weight of all our accumulated wonders
So we can't let this war hold us up for too long.

Having said that, I feel we may already be too late to take Shaka without Construction, so I would make that a priority on our tech list.

Another cross-post. Agreed on the Wonders and construction. Masonry opens up quite a few Wonders, not just the Pyramids, but also Hanging Gardens. We're too late for Great Wall. And while we're talking about Wonders, I'd like to make a plea for the Parthenon. Great People are dead useful - and we can overwhelm that artist pollution. My test games proved that absolutely

However, the problem in hand is Shaka. Not because he is a threat. But because he is a Distraction.

I *hate* distractions ...

 

[Harbourboy]

So, the simple plan is: Masonry plus spears and axes? I like simple plans.

 

[Misotu]

Well ... yeah, maybe, if everyone else agrees. The-Hawk will have more to contribute.

But if we go with what we have now it's the simple plan plus the minimum totally optimised roads with the mined hill at Hari, and the micro-managed great scientist, and not too many spears - they are useless on attacking cities, and the switching back to the barracks in Hari and the change in civics and looking out for the optimised point to switch religions and growing Yas while getting our military out and sorting out happiness. And the switch to Construction after Masonry.

I know you Generation-Xers have attention problems - it's your extreme youth. Don't worry, it will pass. With the years

Go HB! Go Geezers!

 

[erikthecelt]

Edited to add: We do need to take care with the pillaging and rampaging. Hitting sudden and hard with a big force is a Good Thing - hanging around with insufficient units just provokes military build-up and makes the job twice as hard. I know The-Hawk has had this experience, because he has posted to this effect elsewhere. Shock & Awe is terribly effective, and unit-economic. With or without cats.

I agree, my technique is to withdraw from the cultural borders, the AI will then send a few units out or will switch back to REX mode if down to one city. The worst thing you can do is camp beside a city with not enough power to take it.

 

[Harbourboy]

not too many spears

Agree - the spears are really just for defensive and counter-attack purposes.

I know you Generation-Xers have attention problems - it's your extreme youth. Don't worry, it will pass. With the years

I can't wait for years. I want it to pass NOW!