SGOTM 08 - Geezers

[The-Hawk]

Would it be better to leave sailing and just go masonry/construction immediately?:

My only reason for leaving sailing here was there are only two turns left and I didn't want to lose beakers. However, Mason/Constr has the advantage of earlier cats and probably is fast enough to avoid beaker loss. So delaying sailing is fine by me.

We are currently building a warrior in Hari. I assume we switch back to barracks temporarily, wait for copper and Hari to be hooked up and then switch back to what will now be a spearman, to finish him before cats are on-line?

I'm OK either way. The warrior can be an MP in a new or captured city. Or fog bust.

Until Hari can build cats, I think we should micro-manage the city to run 3 science specialists as often as we can. Should be able to shave at least a couple of turns off the great scientist, the spear will still build, and we only have 3 useful tiles to work in Hari anyway, so I don't think we're desperate for that 4th population immediately. If we do that, the GS will be born on or very soon after we get construction, research rate will drop when 3rd city is founded - if it's within a turn or so we might just keep those 2 scientists going to get the academy? - especially if it speeds IW, massive production boost in 3rd city.

I'm OK with getting the Academy done. It really won't cost too much time.

Do we max growth or research or production in Yas?

Production. Yas needs to build units quickly, especially if we let Hari pop a GS. I think Confus can wait.

You're suggesting a couple of axes initially, presumably for the choke-point. Then we can use the warrior to break the FoW to ensure our workers are safe in the ivory area and subsequently as third city garrison.

I would leave a spear back at the homeland. Seems unlikely that Shaka has sailing, but if he does, a Galley with a couple of chariots could ruin our day.

My thinking on the war with Shaka was to get in early, it sounds like we are going to give him time to develop and establish his production.

That's certainly not my intent. I want to get at him asap. However, I am skeptical we can kill him with a handful of axemen. Capturing his out cities is not sufficient, his capital is the prize. I would intend to finish him in one war.

Spears are a must as the BTS AI seems to love building lots of horse units.

Sorry, I oversimplified in sketching out my plan. We certainly need a couple of spears to join our armies. I like using spears as MPs as well (I hate archers). If Shaka wanders a chariot near a captured city we want to kill it before it pillages, not wait for it to attack an archer in the city.

We have lots ot trees ready to be chopped, do we want to chop a settler? We can finish the warrior in Hari as mp for the new city.

We had better save some gold in case of tragic events. We don't want to lose the gold or copper mines for want of 10g.

I think we should save the trees in case we are in a wonder race. Not worth the chops to speed the settler. I agree on keeping some gold for a rainy day... I also HATE random events, usually turn them off.

New City produces 3 per turn after pasture.

Consensus against 3rd city.

Obviously I'm in the minority (maybe a minority of one ) on third city site. IMHO 1W of cows is easily superior (short and long term) to 1N or 1NW. 1W brings 6 at pop 2 (not 3 ). It will produce 9 once we have IW and can get the phants online.

However, Erik's point on Yas' overwhelming prod advantage is good. The 7 turns to build a settler might be better served creating a couple of units. I don't agree it will take long to make city 3 productive though... once we have construction (which is shortly after the city is founded) it can build cats. It does not need to be roaded. We only need to pasture the cows and mine the hill and the city is off and running.

Anyhow, I'm OK with waiting on city 3 and letting Yas build units only. But I still want more debate on it's eventual location. Later in the game, a site with 14 cottages is going to feel pretty good.

 

[markh]

Just a note : we should not forget that with construction and ivory we get our UU. Thinking more of this I would not build too many axes and spears. Building some will keep Shaka in check until we have some cats and phants (I forgot the name of our UU ).

Edit : forget about our UU. We need horseback riding which we are not about to research anytime soon, but maybe considerable in regards to our UU.

 

[Harbourboy]

Oooh, Ballista Elephants!

So, do you guys want me to play? I believe Hawk has validated the plan, and Thrallia is too young to count, wherever he is.

 

[Misotu]

Obviously I'm in the minority (maybe a minority of one ) on third city site. IMHO 1W of cows is easily superior (short and long term) to 1N or 1NW. 1W brings 6 at pop 2 (not 3 ). It will produce 9 once we have IW and can get the phants online.

Maybe a minority of 2 I agree completely with your arguements for the 1W site. Actually, I thought that had been agreed?

If we're going to run max production in Yas, do we want to set a limit on how many axes we're going to knock out before we can get cats? Presumably we can run the cows rather than grass hill mine for growth once gold is nearly hooked? That only costs us 1 hammer.

So, do you guys want me to play? I believe Hawk has validated the plan, and Thrallia is too young to count, wherever he is.

It sounds like we are pretty much reaching agreement. Remember erikthecelt's detailed plan? I've amended it slightly to reflect what appears to be the consensus:

Detailed plans - please review

HB turnset- (turn numbers are approximate – but the order of operations should be followed)

Turn 0 – switch research to Masonry
Revolt to caste and bureaucracy.
Both workers to road to copper
Switch Hari to build barracks
Scout boat to complete island circuit
Missionary to sleep in Yas

Turn 1 – if Yas barracks complete in 1 turn, convert to Confu
Both workers to road to copper
Switch Yas citizen from hill to cows (each turn verify that we are working clams, fish, gold, cows, copper, hills)
Scout boat heads towards Shakas south coast, hopefully will reveal useful info in a few turns

Turn 2 – 1 worker moves to cows and starts to road
Other worker starts road heading west, follow Misotu’s directions on the route so it is shortest distance for both Hari and elephants – complete the Hari leg first
Yas barracks – axe
Hari could switch to spear? or continue barracks – check to see if we can run an extra scientist - or even 2 - in Hari for one or two turns to use the accumulated food. No need to grow Hari yet, we want min # of turns to get a GS. Throughout turn set, keep checking food situation and using it. But don't let the city starve down to 2

Turn 3/4 ish, Masonry should be done so switch to construction

Turn 4 – worker moves to gold
Yas axe – spear (axe goes to choke point to reinforce warrior)

Turn 5 – worker starts gold road
Yas spear – axe

Turn 6 – 10
When gold has road, that worker goes off to build western road/ivory camp. Bust FoW with warrior from choke point, if you haven't already, to protect workers. Yas axe – spear – axe – axe (don’t worry if all the builds don’t fit in this plan)
Hari – see above notes

Is this about right?

 

[erikthecelt]

Maybe a minority of 2 I agree completely with your arguements for the 1W site. Actually, I thought that had been agreed?

Make that 3, I was sold on that sometime ago. I am also in agreement with the revised plan.

So, do you guys want me to play?

Yes Please, we want to get going, this could be a long haul.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

So, do you guys want me to play?

Yes please. Misotu's plan seems good to me.

 

[markh]

So, do you guys want me to play?

Yup, move it on.

 

[Harbourboy]

Sorry, missed that window of opportunity to play last night. It will probably be tomorrow morning now (i.e. in about 23 hours time).

 

[AgedOne]

Put me in the "Third city goes 1W of cows" camp, too.
Cows, lake, ivory, connects quickly to Yas and Hari.
And, of course, if the "iron in the grassy clearing" theory is true - we're right there already

 

[The-Hawk]

Only thing I'd add to the plan... we should keep checking Shaka for peace. No reason to stay at war, we can redeclare when our military is ready.

Go HB!

 

[erikthecelt]

Only thing I'd add to the plan... we should keep checking Shaka for peace. No reason to stay at war, we can redeclare when our military is ready.

Go HB!

As long as he is furious, there's a 0% chance of peace. It will take a long time or some unit loses on his part.

 

[Harbourboy]

OK, here goes:

Turn 0 - 1320 BC: Switch research to Masonry. Revolt to caste and bureaucracy.
Missionary to sleep in Yas. Switch Harihalya to Barracks.

Turn 1 - 1280 BC: Come out of anarchy. 40 beakers per turn at 90%. Move workers to road copper. Move workboat around island. Switch to Confuscianism.

Turn 2 - 1240 BC: Shaka won't make peace. Switch Yas citizen to cow. Workers roading copper. Hut island is biggish.

Turn 3 - 1200 BC: I've done something wrong because Yas can't build axe as copper road is not finished yet. Start warrior and hope it turns into a spear next turn.

Turn 4 - 1160 BC: Yas warrior is now a spear in 1 turn.

Turn 5 - 1120 BC: Yas: Spear => Axe. Masonry => Construction in 10.

Turn 6 - 1080 BC: A massive explosion destroys Harihalya's mine. Costs us 5gp to keep everyone happy.

Turn 7 - 1040 BC: Yas: Axe => Axe.

Turn 8 - 1000 BC: A barbarian shows up near choke point.

Turn 9 - 975 BC: Fiddle around with Yas citizens to stop it going unhappy.

Turn 10 - 950 BC: Yas: Axe => Axe.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm8/Geezers_SG008_BC0950_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

Hope I got some of the micromanagement right. Main issue was that mine explosion which we did not have enough cash to prevent.

 

[Misotu]

Interesting stuff We will have construction in 4 turns. Excellent.

There is stone on that large second island We *really* need to know whether we're alone on this island with Shaka. Marble City and Stone City must be built ... but with Iron City and Shaka's empire, that gives us a nasty little economy problem to solve. How many of his cities do we keep?

Here are my suggestions for the next turn-set:

• Lose the 2 scientists in Yas, work gold, cow, copper, fish and both mines. This way, we produce 3 axes in the next 4 turns, to add to the 2 we already have, making us slightly ahead of plan, axe-wise, when catapults become available. However, construction now arrives in 5 which we fix by:
• Running an extra scientist in Hari for exactly 4 turns (any more, it starves). This gives us construction in 4. It also knocks 2 turns off great scientist, which will then appear in 9 turns.
• Switch production to spear in Hari, although it won't build for a little while
• The barbarian warrior should be formally introduced to one of our axemen. He is a nuisance
• Obviously switch production from axes to cats after construction
• Finish sailing

Decisions

Yas Growth: If we follow this plan, Yas will grow in 7 turns, hitting the happiness cap again. Can't have ivory by then, could use the missionary. Or turn on avoid growth until ivory on-line, which won't be long.

Worker Actions: Our workers need to do all of the following, but we need to prioritise carefully:

1. Road to ivory, plus camp (gives growth in Yas, but camp could be delayed if we use the missionary. Or just don't grow in Yas for a few turns)
2. Rebuild mine at Hari (Can use this in 9 turns)
3. Add second mine at Hari (Can use this in 9 turns)
4. Road to choke-point (for fast military movement)
5. Build 3 cottages at Yas? In which case, pottery after sailing?

I think I've probably put these in what I think is priority-order, but that's not necessarily the order in which we do them. When roads take only 2 turns to build, it's pretty wasteful turn-wise to have 2 workers building as a team. Ditto mines. Think I might use one worker to road to ivory, send the other to rebuild the mine at Hari. They join forces to build the camp (since ivory will be roaded by time mine is finished so no turns lost) and then split up again. One roads to chokepoint, other builds second Hari mine & then goes off to cottage Yas or whatever.

Rearch: I think sailing, then pottery and then ... ? If we want pottery (currently 3 turns), is it sensible to do agriculture first (2 turns) to save beakers on pottery or not? We won't need agriculture for a while ...

I think it's looking really good

Edited to add: I suppose we might think it's worth having one worker just working the road to the choke point, while the other does mine - ivory - mine. That road is very key to speeding our attack, and Yas will build those cats very fast. Each jungle tile takes 3 turns before it has a road (1 to move, 2 to build) so ...

 

[The-Hawk]

Woohoo, looks like I'm up. Looks like a good set HB... .

Any more comments on next turnset? I'd like to play this weekend. I'll post a draft plan tonight (I suspect it will look amazingly like Misotu's suggested plan). My goal is to play Sat night or Sun depending on how much more discussion is needed.

 

[Misotu]

Yes, well ... other than tweaking, there's probably not a lot of variation possible right now. Go The-Hawk!

BTW, the progress graphs are interesting. Rubbish score, great culture, great power. :Hmm: Er ... Erik?

The Wonder Bumpkins have a fan club. 19 visitor posts

 

[Sam_Yeager]

Any more comments on next turnset? I'd like to play this weekend. I'll post a draft plan tonight (I suspect it will look amazingly like Misotu's suggested plan).

We may need to do a bit more navel gazing. I suspect we might want the GLib. However that affects such matters as our tech research order and where and when we want to build cities. Marble would be rather nice for the GLib for instance. Do we build that next whilst waiting for IW? Probably not but it's worth raising the question now.

Now that random events have started we might want to build up a fund ( say 50 - 100 )? Forest fires can be a real pain. However this would hit research speed so we might just take a chance.

@Misotu - I'm hoping the bardb warrior will try and force his attentions on the spear.

 

[Misotu]

Now that random events have started we might want to build up a fund ( say 50 - 100 )? Forest fires can be a real pain. However this would hit research speed so we might just take a chance.

@Misotu - I'm hoping the bard warrior will try and force his attentions on the spear.

More fool the barb if he does. But I was hoping for a double-promoted city attack axe ...

On the fund, I'm hoping that will be sorted once conquest starts. We should get quite a reasonable treasury boost from taking Shaka's cities. Our research speed will be hit quite sufficiently with our army costs and the maintenance for those extra cities. Not all random events are bad - I've played with them turned on quite a bit in HoF games and have been quite interested to see that they can be rather beneficial. Wastin' Time seems to have them turned on for at least some of his best religious victory games ...

 

[Harbourboy]

I'd like to know what wonders we are proposing to build.

 

[AgedOne]

HB Turnset
No major problems. No massive attack from Shaky. In fact, no sign of him at all.
That's good.
We have metals hooked up, and we're only 4 from Construction.
We know a bit more about the world around us.
This is all good.

Next turnset
We could do with some more exploration from the WB to show us what Shaky's land connects to in the south (if anything?)
Once Construction comes in, do we want to settle Ankhor Thom by them cows (and elephants)?

The Emergencies Fund
Yes, I'd forgotten this was BTS. We don't need a huge fund, but it would be handy not to run ourselves down to 0.
Perhaps Shaky will contribute??


Wonders
I like the idea of building the Pyramids ourselves.
I notice the Gt Wall went (much as expected, Misotu) during this last turnset.
The Parthenonial building has been mentioned, and is best not forgotten.
Then we will surely want the Gt Lib.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

I like the idea of building the Pyramids ourselves.
I notice the Gt Wall went (much as expected, Misotu) during this last turnset.
The Parthenonial building has been mentioned, and is best not forgotten.
Then we will surely want the Gt Lib.

To make war is to choose. If we're going after Shaka then I doubt that we have the capacity to build the Mids before the AI does. Probably ditto for the Parthenon. That's why I raised the subject of the GLib in my post above.