... and of course I also forgot to account for the +100% production bonus of Library for Creative.... and I just realized that my sheet is wrong since we get +100% production bonus of Granary for Expansive. Nice!
SGOTM 08 - Smurkz
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
It's a bit of a shock to see library: 3 turns off the bat when you're only making 8hpt, isn't it? 
Don't even need to whip them, even at the purple site. This has to be my favorite combination of production bonuses in the game.
Don't even need to whip them, even at the purple site. This has to be my favorite combination of production bonuses in the game.
r_rolo1
King of myself
National wonders can be retained if you haven't built your version. But I can count the times that it happened to me by the fingers of one hand ( and normally wasting a nice combo, as the AI loves to do the Nat wonders in the wrong places
)
Xcalibrator
Ultraviolet Catastrophe
Interesting about retaining nat'l wonders if you haven't built yours yet. So, what happens if we raze a city with a national wonder we haven't built yet? Can we (re)build it ourselves? I know that we can only build "our" national wonder once.
It's counterintuitive, but the many production bonuses we get (for library, granary, harbor, theatre, colosseum) may strengthen the case for having less food/whipping. The revised spreadsheet results will be interesting.
BL, please tell us more about the advantages of "splitting Great Library and the Pyramids up into two separate cites" (post 20). Is the idea that you can fine tune when each type of GP pops out?
It's counterintuitive, but the many production bonuses we get (for library, granary, harbor, theatre, colosseum) may strengthen the case for having less food/whipping. The revised spreadsheet results will be interesting.
BL, please tell us more about the advantages of "splitting Great Library and the Pyramids up into two separate cites" (post 20). Is the idea that you can fine tune when each type of GP pops out?
r_rolo1
King of myself
I'll try to see the code and/or ask someone more familiar with it regarding that issue of the nat. wonders ( I never had that problem ). Anyway it doesn't always retain the Nat wonder, so we should not act like if it was a assured thing.
... and of course we should ensure that we build all national wonders in good time anyway. 
ChrisShaffer
Board gamer
I don't think this is true. Niklas and Renata showed that the Purple site actually has higher productivity through good use of the whip.
No, it doesn't. In fact, the opposite is true. Purple IS the decent eastern city - arguably the great eastern city. If we settle green, then there won't be a good eastern city site - because the capital will take every resource except one fish.
Backwards Logic
Emperor Palpatine
One splits the Pyramids and Great Library to produce Great Scientists and Great Engineers separately without any pollution from other types of GP. Ideally, the mids should be built in the production city (along with Hanging Gardens later for more GE points) while the Great Library be built/rushed in the GP farm city. While running scientists via either a library or caste system, you can still churn out more great scientists at a higher rate while having another city focus entirely on the occasional GE without GS pollution. It gives the best of both worlds - dedicated GE creation with GS to tech well.
Well, that depends on what you mean by "long-term". At some point we want to ditch slavery and run Caste System and/or Free Speech. At that point, purple is less productive. But if it's good enough, and we have more towns with good production, I think the benefits in the early-to-mid game, when the whip is available, make it worth strong consideration.
Then again, if by "long-term" you count the time when we could have beefed-up workshops, i.e. the very end-sprint of the game, then the site with all the food becomes very nice again...
This is so very very true. This is exactly what I've felt too, but haven't managed to formulate properly. If we settle Purple, it will be a great site, and allow us to settle a site with good production capacity 1W of the start (as well as a village on the NE tip of the land, if there's more resources there). If we settle Green, we can settle a second town NE of the Gold, which has a Fish and a bunch of grasslands. Not really all that tractable and not useful for any specialization.I've now played the Purple start up to turn 106. I built the Great Library on the IBT 101-102, and National Epic 105-106. Before that I had built Moai, completing perfectly in time before I started Great Library. Thanks to a well-placed whip with lots of overflow, and a forest chop, I completed GLib in roughly 10 turns (I forget exactly).
The down side of it is that I failed the second part of the plan, i.e. to build the Pyramids in the second town. This was not due to that site building too slow, but rather that the Mids were built by someone else very very early - on turn 88 to be exact. I would have finished it 4 turns later, and had I chopped another forest I could have finished it on 89. So instead I got nearly 500 gp, and went on to complete the Parthenon in 13 turns.
Conclusions - we can't be safe from losing the Pyramids no matter what, if it can be built that early. And the purple capitol has definite potential to build what it needs, even while allowing the Cows and Clams to the second town. I challenge you to beat my 102 GLib with a Green start.
r_rolo1
King of myself
I think that both Niklas and ChrisShaffer failed my point
We don't know what is to the west... as far as we know it can be water or desert. I'm simply making reasoning on the tiles we know to exist... and I would take green + blurry fish city to purple and nothing else in a blink of a eye.
Purple assumes that we can make a decent city in the west to do a lot of the hammer workout.... and we don't have intel enough to take that for sure. That is why I called it a high stakes gamble. Green is far less risky.
In the end it is a matter of how much are we willing to bet .....
We don't know what is to the west... as far as we know it can be water or desert. I'm simply making reasoning on the tiles we know to exist... and I would take green + blurry fish city to purple and nothing else in a blink of a eye.
Purple assumes that we can make a decent city in the west to do a lot of the hammer workout.... and we don't have intel enough to take that for sure. That is why I called it a high stakes gamble. Green is far less risky.
In the end it is a matter of how much are we willing to bet .....
My only real concern about purple is/was wonder building, since the whip is less efficient for that. It's really not a horrible spot with regards to production (especially with Moai, obviously!); it's just not spectacular. So I guess we just need to decide exactly which wonders we need, and when. And for someone to play out Green for 100-odd turns a few times to see what can be done.
XCalibrator, what don't we know about the west? Isn't Niklas' second city based largely on known tiles? If so, your comparison isn't really valid. This is not a vote for Purple, by the way; I really want to see what Green can do in the early game before deciding.
XCalibrator, what don't we know about the west? Isn't Niklas' second city based largely on known tiles? If so, your comparison isn't really valid. This is not a vote for Purple, by the way; I really want to see what Green can do in the early game before deciding.
Xcalibrator
Ultraviolet Catastrophe
Oh, it's ON, baby!
Uh, assuming I can find enough low-demand time for the home computer. 
Are there any rules we need to follow so we can compare apples to apples, like only build cities in the unfogged area we can currently see, don't adopt any religion, reload if there are random events, etc?
@Renata: Get your team mates right!
@rolo: Like Renata said, my test game is based on nothing but what we can already see. I'm basing my production center only on the tiles we already know are there. Hey, it's played on your own WB map, you know how nice the land outside the visible starting area looks on that one.
In fact, that's a rather important point. The production site I plan for with the purple start, and that I used in my test game, is a minimum approximation for what the real town will be like. There could be lots of interesting things in the fog - more forests to chop, Copper on the mystery tile 2S, Deer, who knows? Any one of those would make the town even better than the one I've played and planned.
@Xc: If you use rolo's save, you're free to build cities wherever you like, since the area outside the visible range is very dull. In my game I only built one more town - on the NE tip - but there's room for more on the island out west.
If you manage to adopt a religion on this map then I will congratulate you. I guess it's possible with Oracle taking CoL for Confusion, but then you'll lose the challenge. What I'm saying is that on rolo's map we're totally isolated on our own little island, so there's really no chance for religion spread.
Regarding random events, reload if you get some that will obviously affect the outcome of the test, such as +2 hammers on a tile. I got a few that caused me to lose gold - one vermin and one slave revolt - and one that I could ignore completely.
One more thing I should note. I played according to my sheet up to around turn 60 or 70, after that I winged it and played rather sloppily. The whips could have been optimized better than what I did, and I didn't even make a plan for the second town. So I'm sure that with some proper focus and planning I could get that down by a few more turns. And in particular I'm sure I could get the Pyramids - I didn't hurry since I thought they were safe before turn 100 or so.
@rolo: Like Renata said, my test game is based on nothing but what we can already see. I'm basing my production center only on the tiles we already know are there. Hey, it's played on your own WB map, you know how nice the land outside the visible starting area looks on that one.
In fact, that's a rather important point. The production site I plan for with the purple start, and that I used in my test game, is a minimum approximation for what the real town will be like. There could be lots of interesting things in the fog - more forests to chop, Copper on the mystery tile 2S, Deer, who knows? Any one of those would make the town even better than the one I've played and planned.
@Xc: If you use rolo's save, you're free to build cities wherever you like, since the area outside the visible range is very dull. In my game I only built one more town - on the NE tip - but there's room for more on the island out west.
If you manage to adopt a religion on this map then I will congratulate you. I guess it's possible with Oracle taking CoL for Confusion, but then you'll lose the challenge. What I'm saying is that on rolo's map we're totally isolated on our own little island, so there's really no chance for religion spread.
Regarding random events, reload if you get some that will obviously affect the outcome of the test, such as +2 hammers on a tile. I got a few that caused me to lose gold - one vermin and one slave revolt - and one that I could ignore completely.
One more thing I should note. I played according to my sheet up to around turn 60 or 70, after that I winged it and played rather sloppily. The whips could have been optimized better than what I did, and I didn't even make a plan for the second town. So I'm sure that with some proper focus and planning I could get that down by a few more turns. And in particular I'm sure I could get the Pyramids - I didn't hurry since I thought they were safe before turn 100 or so.
I have some catching up to do. Great job everyone!
Xcalibrator
Ultraviolet Catastrophe
As the Black Knight said in "Monty Python and the Holy Grail," "All right, we'll call it a draw." Actually, purple wins by a nose. Settling on green, I got the Pyramids on turn 94 (that's when the movie came up) and the Great Library on 103, just playing straight through without optimizing. I was nowhere near completion of the Maoi in the second city (the jungle NE of our scout's current location), however--only had 68 of 250, with population 7 (2 unhappy). Also had a lighthouse and library in that city, with a granary, lighthouse, and library in the capital. Too tired to draw any deep conclusions, but I won't quit the team if the decision is to go with purple for the start
That's very interesting, I actually didn't think you'd get that close. I though the higher research from the purple start would mean you couldn't reach Literature in time. I suppose the 30 gold I lost to random events delayed me a few turns though, but you could have had some too, you never said.
But I also seem to read a few other things from your game, that all suggest to me that it's a weaker start than mine. I had Maoi, Granary, Lighthouse, Library and Baray in the capitol, along with the Great Library of course. The second town had Granary and Parthenon, along with the Pyramids-that-never-was (I would have had them on turn 92). And I also had a third town halfway to a granary, you never mentioned if you had more than the two. I note in particular that I had Pyramids and GL in different towns, with the benefits that BL discussed - I assume you built both in your capitol?
All in all I'm more and more convinced that Purple is the way to go. Especially considering it's the non-obvious choice, which means most other teams won't go for it. But I won't quit either if the decision is to go Green.
But I also seem to read a few other things from your game, that all suggest to me that it's a weaker start than mine. I had Maoi, Granary, Lighthouse, Library and Baray in the capitol, along with the Great Library of course. The second town had Granary and Parthenon, along with the Pyramids-that-never-was (I would have had them on turn 92). And I also had a third town halfway to a granary, you never mentioned if you had more than the two. I note in particular that I had Pyramids and GL in different towns, with the benefits that BL discussed - I assume you built both in your capitol?
All in all I'm more and more convinced that Purple is the way to go. Especially considering it's the non-obvious choice, which means most other teams won't go for it. But I won't quit either if the decision is to go Green.
ChrisShaffer
Board gamer
Go purple, play those first few turns, and let's get this show on the road.
ChrisShaffer
Board gamer
OK, I played green through 100 turns twice, reloading along the way to optimize. I won't claim by any stretch to be the best optimizer, but I couldn't even come close to Niklas' performance with purple.
Xcalibrator
Ultraviolet Catastrophe
I vote for purple, too. On my Green challenge, I only had 2 cities to match what I mistakenly thought was Niklas's scheme, not that it would have made much difference. I had 3 workers, by the way, and chopped every tree in sight--did you have any forests left, Niklas? Every hill was mined and I had a few hamlets up. In a real game we probably would have revolted to Representation (maybe waiting a couple turns to get Monotheism, too) which would have sped things up by a turn or two (and a lot for the 2nd city Moai), but Niklas's purple test cranked out more stuff, with the Pyramids and Great Library in different cities, and it's a contrarian start strategy, which I like. Go purple!
[Edit: No random event impact--had one forest grow outside the BFC that I left alone and got some free gold that I didn't use. And yes, Pyramids and GL were both in the capital.]
[Edit: No random event impact--had one forest grow outside the BFC that I left alone and got some free gold that I didn't use. And yes, Pyramids and GL were both in the capital.]
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