SGOTM 08 - Smurkz
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
I've been having fits with the spreadsheet trying to duplicate the Turn 85 (87 after accounting for Methos' mistake) Pyramids I had yesterday, and after correcting my own mistakes, I can't do it. I think I can get 88 with some additional sacrifices; can anyone do better? I need to check one thing with a test game before I'm sure.
(if anyone gets the chance first, move your worker immediately to the northern of the two forested river tiles and chop. When the worker build finishes in Hari-Smurkz, what is your hammer overflow?)
@XCalibrator -- we want to keep 10 g in the bank after writing in order to have the option to choose the "best" outcome for a slave revolt. The idea is to go 1 turn at zero research to get some cash, then 100% until we'd fall below 10 gold, then 1 turn at zero again, and so forth.
(if anyone gets the chance first, move your worker immediately to the northern of the two forested river tiles and chop. When the worker build finishes in Hari-Smurkz, what is your hammer overflow?)
@XCalibrator -- we want to keep 10 g in the bank after writing in order to have the option to choose the "best" outcome for a slave revolt. The idea is to go 1 turn at zero research to get some cash, then 100% until we'd fall below 10 gold, then 1 turn at zero again, and so forth.
@Niklas regarding the last point in your IM about maybe getting the Pyramids on turn 87 (and sorry for disappearing like that): the fly in that ointment is that we won't have two mined plains hills until turn 78 the way I currently have things; in fact, in order to get the third worker out a little earlier, from turn 74-77 the second plains hill doesn't even have a forest. 
I switched to using the plains forest for those four turns, which means we can't whip on turn 86, so finish is back at 88.
The worker movements really need to be looked at to see if there isn't a better way to do things.
I switched to using the plains forest for those four turns, which means we can't whip on turn 86, so finish is back at 88.The worker movements really need to be looked at to see if there isn't a better way to do things.
Xcalibrator
Ultraviolet Catastrophe
Unless rolo is nocturnal, I don't think he'll get to the new test game until tomorrow. Renata, were you able to reproduce Methos's moves and bring the test game up to current? If so, could you post it? No problem if not--I'll have time for testing tomorrow, too.
No, I didn't have time to do that; I was too busy bashing my head in about the Pyramids.
I like the capital situation much better; I really should have looked at that first. From where we are, it looks quite straightforward to whip the baray on turn 73, the Moai Statues on 93 and the Great Library on 103 (to finish on 104). This should work as long as we get lit by turn 94, I believe. I don't *think* it's possible to finish Moai by 83 whether we chop our two remaining forests right then or not, so I suggest we leave the forests alone until they can go towards the GL and slot in a worker right after the baray. Maybe even two. We have enough worker turns available to get all the Pyramids chops done with just one each from towns 2 and 3 (barely), but it leaves us in desperate need of things like hooking up the pigs, sticking a camp on the elephants, pasturing the second cows, mining the grass hills, and so forth. I'm sure we can find something else to whip on turn 83.
I like the capital situation much better; I really should have looked at that first. From where we are, it looks quite straightforward to whip the baray on turn 73, the Moai Statues on 93 and the Great Library on 103 (to finish on 104). This should work as long as we get lit by turn 94, I believe. I don't *think* it's possible to finish Moai by 83 whether we chop our two remaining forests right then or not, so I suggest we leave the forests alone until they can go towards the GL and slot in a worker right after the baray. Maybe even two. We have enough worker turns available to get all the Pyramids chops done with just one each from towns 2 and 3 (barely), but it leaves us in desperate need of things like hooking up the pigs, sticking a camp on the elephants, pasturing the second cows, mining the grass hills, and so forth. I'm sure we can find something else to whip on turn 83.
Both me and rolo are definitely nocturnal - test save will be up in a short while. 
r_rolo1
King of myself
Sorry for the BIG delay, but I was really overboard today 
Anyway, here is the save.
P.S Shaka seems to prefer to settle 1 W of the rice
P.S 2 . Me, nocturnal? Nah
Anyway, here is the save.
P.S Shaka seems to prefer to settle 1 W of the rice
P.S 2 . Me, nocturnal? Nah
Xcalibrator
Ultraviolet Catastrophe
Did a test last night playing straight through with a few mistakes and many non-optimal moves. I'm very impressed with Renata and Niklas getting the Pyramids around turn 88! The movie played on turn 90 for me (2nd city) --might be able to shave one turn at best. The Great Library (capital) appeared, however, on turn 99, with Literature on turn 93. I wasn't getting good whip timing in the capital so I decided to make lemonade and intermittently put one or two scientists specialists to work. That speeded up the techs and also gave a Great Scientist on turn 95 that I used to build an academy.
Other dates: On turn 69 I got Math, finished the chops to the 3 forests around the 3rd city ("red") site to put 76 hammers into the Pyramids, and settled that city. The Moai were still under construction in the capital when I quit--would probably come in around turn 105.
Lessons? Sounds like the spreadsheet plan is pretty well optimized for Pyramid construction, which is probably our biggest challenge. As a plan B in case the AI beats us, maybe we should try to hold off on the last chop or two until the turn when we whip, in order to keep those forests for something else (that gets a production bonus, for example)?
My impression is that I got the Great Library a little earlier by running the science specialists, but the tradeoff is less production. That decision will be affected by, among other things, what our galley finds to the south after he's dropped a worker on the marble.
I'm going to try again in an hour or so--I'm taking a few days off and have some time
. Any suggestions on what to emphasize or experiment with?
Other dates: On turn 69 I got Math, finished the chops to the 3 forests around the 3rd city ("red") site to put 76 hammers into the Pyramids, and settled that city. The Moai were still under construction in the capital when I quit--would probably come in around turn 105.
Lessons? Sounds like the spreadsheet plan is pretty well optimized for Pyramid construction, which is probably our biggest challenge. As a plan B in case the AI beats us, maybe we should try to hold off on the last chop or two until the turn when we whip, in order to keep those forests for something else (that gets a production bonus, for example)?
My impression is that I got the Great Library a little earlier by running the science specialists, but the tradeoff is less production. That decision will be affected by, among other things, what our galley finds to the south after he's dropped a worker on the marble.
I'm going to try again in an hour or so--I'm taking a few days off and have some time
. Any suggestions on what to emphasize or experiment with?
ChrisShaffer
Board gamer
Probably impossible, but can you slot in another settler to start the third city?
Xcalibrator
Ultraviolet Catastrophe
Yeah. Everything in the "On turn 69" sentence happened that turn --> the 3rd city was settled then. It would be no problem to make another settler or two if we find a good spot.
Ok, so you delayed construction of the third city a few turns in order to make all the chops post math. I thought about trying that myself, but couldn't manage all the chops and mining well with such a delay on the third worker. Is that what happened to you? When did your second city grow to size 5?
Yeah, I realized last night after I posted that I overestimated the time needed to build the Pyramids. With 2 chops and a size 6 (happy) capital, they can be handbuilt in 8 or 9 turns, I think. We probably should plan to take a close look at what the galley finds, as you suggest: if we find a really yummy spot we can whip a settler on turn 83 and send it down there; if not, we could consider passing up a whipping turn in order to finish the GL prior to turn 100 instead of a couple turns after, and just hire more scientists instead.
Is it 2 GP points per scientist? I can never remember.
How many workers did you build, and what did city 3 do after founding?
Yeah, I realized last night after I posted that I overestimated the time needed to build the Pyramids. With 2 chops and a size 6 (happy) capital, they can be handbuilt in 8 or 9 turns, I think. We probably should plan to take a close look at what the galley finds, as you suggest: if we find a really yummy spot we can whip a settler on turn 83 and send it down there; if not, we could consider passing up a whipping turn in order to finish the GL prior to turn 100 instead of a couple turns after, and just hire more scientists instead.
Is it 2 GP points per scientist? I can never remember.
How many workers did you build, and what did city 3 do after founding?
ChrisShaffer
Board gamer
ah, it was the "and settled that city" that I didn't get. No antecedent.
Oh and: I really don't know if it's worth the shields, but it would be nice to know if it's possible to get the G Light in city 3, and what you'd have to sacrifice to do so. The capital could surely do it before G Lib, without costing more than a turn or two on the latter but that's a long delay on Moai if we really want it there, and a long time with nothing but wonder production in the capital.
(A quick look at the BOTM 2 results showed G Light mostly around turns 110-115. BOTM 7 was all over the place: anywhere from 88 to 120 in the handful of results I looked at.)
(A quick look at the BOTM 2 results showed G Light mostly around turns 110-115. BOTM 7 was all over the place: anywhere from 88 to 120 in the handful of results I looked at.)
Xcalibrator
Ultraviolet Catastrophe
I'll have to keep better notes this time 
but it looks like the 3rd worker was finished in the capital on turn 59. (By the way, when I cite turns, I mean the turn the build-item is ready for use--is that the proper convention?) That was the last worker I built, and it seemed to be enough (if I'd used them properly). I don't recall any problems with worker chops, but this next time I'll send them to work on the ivory camp and new cows sooner than I did. Don't know when City2 grew to pop 5. I was rather careless with City3--think I started with a granary and library. I think it would be hard to have it build the Great Lighthouse, but will do that experiment. Specialists give 3 GPP per turn.
Does your plan include building another boat to go explore up N? A workboat would be cheap, though risky cuz of barbs. I didn't build an extra, but will this time to be more realistic. (Building more axes would also be more realistic) I'll stick with the faster tech path (running some sci's) just to see how early we can get Lit. Oh, and I didn't revolt to Representation when I got the Pyramids. What's your thinking on that? Probably a good idea (or should we make a small detour to Monotheism and revolt to that at the same time?)
but it looks like the 3rd worker was finished in the capital on turn 59. (By the way, when I cite turns, I mean the turn the build-item is ready for use--is that the proper convention?) That was the last worker I built, and it seemed to be enough (if I'd used them properly). I don't recall any problems with worker chops, but this next time I'll send them to work on the ivory camp and new cows sooner than I did. Don't know when City2 grew to pop 5. I was rather careless with City3--think I started with a granary and library. I think it would be hard to have it build the Great Lighthouse, but will do that experiment. Specialists give 3 GPP per turn.Does your plan include building another boat to go explore up N? A workboat would be cheap, though risky cuz of barbs. I didn't build an extra, but will this time to be more realistic. (Building more axes would also be more realistic
) I'll stick with the faster tech path (running some sci's) just to see how early we can get Lit. Oh, and I didn't revolt to Representation when I got the Pyramids. What's your thinking on that? Probably a good idea (or should we make a small detour to Monotheism and revolt to that at the same time?)
I'm short on time, just a quick few notes from me before tonight. But I have to say, I'm thrilled to see the discussion rolling in my absence, something I wasn't too spoiled with last game. Way to go team! 
First of all, Moai in capitol is by no means an obvious choice, I just included that in my test game because I could do it. Xc obviously got a great date to GLib without them, and if we build them now then we can't build Oxford in the capitol later (assuming we want NE there, which to me is an obvious yes). And 250 hammers is a lot. If we don't build them, we'd have time for exploring galleys, a few more axes, or run a bunch of scientists in representation.
I think we should revolt to Representation as fast as possible. The only reason I'd go for OR too is if we could trade for Mono by that time. I have my sights set on Pacifism anyway, but OR would certainly be nice in the mean time.
Could Hari build GLight after Pyramids? Probably faster than city #3.
I really like the sound of speeding up research like Xc did. And yes, I'd like to see some more detailed notes on that - maybe even presented as a spreadsheet?
I'm generally against whipping wonders, I'd rather insert e.g. a settler for one turn and then whip that, and let the overflow go to the wonder, instead of whipping directly.
More thoughts later tonight.
Way to go team! First of all, Moai in capitol is by no means an obvious choice, I just included that in my test game because I could do it. Xc obviously got a great date to GLib without them, and if we build them now then we can't build Oxford in the capitol later (assuming we want NE there, which to me is an obvious yes). And 250 hammers is a lot. If we don't build them, we'd have time for exploring galleys, a few more axes, or run a bunch of scientists in representation.
I think we should revolt to Representation as fast as possible. The only reason I'd go for OR too is if we could trade for Mono by that time. I have my sights set on Pacifism anyway, but OR would certainly be nice in the mean time.
Could Hari build GLight after Pyramids? Probably faster than city #3.
I really like the sound of speeding up research like Xc did. And yes, I'd like to see some more detailed notes on that - maybe even presented as a spreadsheet?
I'm generally against whipping wonders, I'd rather insert e.g. a settler for one turn and then whip that, and let the overflow go to the wonder, instead of whipping directly.
More thoughts later tonight.
ChrisShaffer
Board gamer
It looks like there will be plenty of other cities where Moai Statues will be a good fit. Let's save space in the capital for Oxford, since we're planning a long game.
By the way, has anyone thought of how we will accomplish building all (most?) of the national wonders? Did anyone ever verify that we can capture national wonders?
By the way, has anyone thought of how we will accomplish building all (most?) of the national wonders? Did anyone ever verify that we can capture national wonders?
Backwards Logic
Emperor Palpatine
Only knock with Great Lighthouse in capital in or city #2 is it will spoil our GS or GE farms respectively. While I wouldn't object to it in city three, the likelihood of that happening in rather slim, as that city would need a lighthouse before it could start building it. If we really wanted it, I suppose city 2 would be the best spot for it, since by the time it is finished the city will have accumulated enough GE weight to 'hopefully' pop a GE and not a GM. If it were in the capital, it would setback our first GS, since while the Great Library is being produced the only GP points being made would be GM, thus upping the chance for a GM.
As for the national wonders, wouldn't you rather build them in cities that could actually use the national wonder to its full potential, or would you seriously like the capture them where they may not be optimized? Personally, the beauty of the national wonders is to customize your cities, and relying on typically terrible AI placement to acquire them seems more hazardous than helpful.
Oh, and a small note to all: Tomorrow my internet is being disconnected in conjunction with my impending move back home on Monday. So best case scenario for me would to be back online on Wednesday or so, but likely Thursday. Hopefully we won't be run over by barb axemen while I'm gone...
As for the national wonders, wouldn't you rather build them in cities that could actually use the national wonder to its full potential, or would you seriously like the capture them where they may not be optimized? Personally, the beauty of the national wonders is to customize your cities, and relying on typically terrible AI placement to acquire them seems more hazardous than helpful.
Oh, and a small note to all: Tomorrow my internet is being disconnected in conjunction with my impending move back home on Monday. So best case scenario for me would to be back online on Wednesday or so, but likely Thursday. Hopefully we won't be run over by barb axemen while I'm gone...
Hari could (possibly should) build the Parthenon after it finishes the Pyramids; hopefully we won't get too many artists from it. (It is artists, right?) And I agree that we really don't want to massively muck up our GS pool with additional wonders in the capital, at least before one pops out for an Academy. So regarding the Lighthouse, IMO it is city 3 or not at all.
I'm quite torn on Moai in the capital. We don't have a lot of native shields there without it. I count only 11 if the grass hill goes to Hari-Smurkz. 12 if we leave that last forest unmolested (we probably won't). It's tempting. But so is Oxford. And *not* building Moai leaves quite a lot of extra space for luxuries like a second galley, barracks, axes, scientists, another settler ... All stuff we need and probably can't get elsewhere in the same timeframe.
All in all I'm leaning toward not building it at this point, but am willing to be converted if anyone feels strongly otherwise.
@BL: I'd say that generally we'd want to build our own National Wonders.
Oh, and for those who didn't know, I'm going on vacation Sunday and won't have my computer along. I'll be back October 10th.
I'm quite torn on Moai in the capital. We don't have a lot of native shields there without it. I count only 11 if the grass hill goes to Hari-Smurkz. 12 if we leave that last forest unmolested (we probably won't). It's tempting. But so is Oxford. And *not* building Moai leaves quite a lot of extra space for luxuries like a second galley, barracks, axes, scientists, another settler ... All stuff we need and probably can't get elsewhere in the same timeframe.
All in all I'm leaning toward not building it at this point, but am willing to be converted if anyone feels strongly otherwise.
@BL: I'd say that generally we'd want to build our own National Wonders.
Oh, and for those who didn't know, I'm going on vacation Sunday and won't have my computer along. I'll be back October 10th.
@ Niklas, in case I don't get the chance to do any more real spreadsheet work before I leave: the first sets of moves of the worker from the capital (chop river forest, chop city 3 site, road city 3 site, road forested plains hill) need rearranging to get the first chop later. Otherwise you wind up with the granary done in Hari before you have masonry. Road forested plains hill, chop river forest, chop & road at city 3 is an order that should work, I think.
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