SGOTM 08 - XTeam

I will try to mark where all of the pre-built workshops are.
I thought about doing it and forgot in all the action... :blush:

If we want Taj in 10 turns, we should get a couple workers to chop 4 forests in Furville. We shouldn't wait too long because Gandhi can now research Nationalism (and he has marble). Also, if finishing the game in 35 turns is a reasonable goal, the tail end of our 24 turn golden age will be wasted if it starts too late.
If Taj is something we need to do quickly? The problem is how long before we have our new lands set up to benefit from the Golden Age? Or, perhaps, getting to the end is more important atm?

The other thing we should consider is moving most of our slow units in Portugal west across the ocean, through Indian territory, and to the borders of Celtia and HRE. That's clearly the shorter distance. We could chop another galleon in Lagos to speed up the transfer. On the demographics screen, I see one AI with about 1/5 of our power. I can only assume it's HRE, as they were getting double-teamed a few turns ago. We should hit them while they're weak.

Most of the Cuirassiers could head back to our east coast by some combination of land and sea travel. If we move our medic axe in Coimbra to Braga, each of our wounded Cuirassiers can stop there until healed, and then each can move on its way as it finishes healing. We should be ready to declare on Celtia/HRE in 6-7 turns.
Yes, this approach could work quite well. :thumbsup:

I debated where to send the Galleons because using them in the inland sea left no fast way to get them around to the other side...

For techs, I was thinking whether we should spend 1 turn to research Chemistry after we partially bulb it with the free GS from Physics. There will only be ~800 beakers left to research. It would give our workshops +1 hammer and let us upgrade a caravel to a frigate (and build more). Then we can go for Electricity (6 turns), Liberalism (2 turns), and Radio (free). Gandhi is the closest AI to Liberalism now that he has Philosophy. But he still lacks Paper and Education, so it looks like there is no danger in losing the race.
Please keep an eye on Gandhi. In my edit above, he has Philosophy. Once he gets Paper, we'll need to consider heading for Liberalism. I know the additional hammers would be most welcome. I think we should have time to grab Chemistry. :)
 
"I have to tell you that my wife enjoyed reading your comment on the 5,000th post. She claimed it was proof that I really don't have a life..." Rather, you have two.

Still haven't had a chance to look at the save, but SCT's plans, especially shipping most of the slow units west and galleon-chaining others east, sound good. Do need to keep some mix of units in both forces.

Will check in again late tonight.
 
Rather, you have two.
And how rich they both are! :clap: :woohoo:

We have not yet discussed the terms of Joao's surrender. Taking him as a Vassal will add a -1 to our relations with the other continent civs. Of course, once we attack, that won't matter much...
I would prefer that he keep his second city.

Have we made a definite decision on Victory Condition? Domination, Conquest by Vassalizing or Diplo? I am still not entirely clear? :confused:
 
We have not yet discussed the terms of Joao's surrender. Taking him as a Vassal will add a -1 to our relations with the other continent civs. Of course, once we attack, that won't matter much...
I would prefer that he keep his second city.

I think the best option is to vassalize him and leave him his two icy cities. We don't need good relations with the AI for much longer.

Have we made a definite decision on Victory Condition? Domination, Conquest by Vassalizing or Diplo? I am still not entirely clear? :confused:

Pericles vassalizing himself to Augustus eliminates the chance of anyone voting for us peacefully. Augustus would be our opponent in the UN and Pericles would vote for him. Any viable victory has to come from conquering at least Boudica, Charlemagne, and Gandhi. We could go for Conquest through vassalizing everyone or Domination with some settler spam (we might need to do some settler spam anyway if Gandhi doesn't grow another Prophet soon).
 
We may want to consider building a Worker or two at Canal-ville or one of the other less endowed hammer cities for service in our new territories.

Coimbra, Lagos, and Evora would all be good places to build some workers. We don't need any more courthouses and those cities don't have much wonder potential. Braga, Oporto, Lisbon, and Guimaraes can be developed for wonder building.

Notre Dame would be a good wonder to build soon in one of our new cities. We lose 3 happiness resources by declaring on Boudica/Charlemagne.

We also can start building Airships next turn. It's probably better to build them in remote cities since they can be rebased to any of our cities in 1 turn. Land units are better built close to the front.
 
I like the idea fo a Conquest victory through making vassal by capitulation. With Joao, he had ten cities and was ready to become our Vassal after we took 4, razing one; 40%. I wonder how closely that will track with the other civs.

Pericles has 7 cities, 40% is three.
Charlemagne has 6 cities, 40% is three.
Boudica has 10 cities, 40% is four.
Gandhi has 9 cities, 40% is four.
Augustus has 12 cities, 40% is five.

If this holds, we need about 20 cities.

Celtia
Bibracte holds The Hanging Garden and Sistine Chapel.
Achen holds The Mahabodi.

India
Delhi holds The Temple of Solomon, The Kashi Vishwanath, Stonehenge, The Parthenon, The Hagia Sophia, Chichen Itza and The Statue of Zeus.
Vijayanagara holds The Church of the Nativity.

Rome
Rome holds The Apostolic Palace and The Great Wall.

These five cities hold all thirteen Wonders that are built that we do not have. :yumyum:
 
Great job!
 
Finally looked at the save. Discussion has already covered most of the critical issues. Here is an unorganized listing of generally minor concerns:

It’s small change at this point, but there are resource trades to be made:
Marble to Pericles and Caesar for gpt; cancel rice for wine and get gpt for it instead (from Boudica);
We can also get a total of 200 gold for our map, but it might be wise to wait (though perhaps we should get what we can before we attack Boudica and start making enemies).

Are we counting on the GM from Economics?

Think we would benefit from a workshop on at least one of the grassland forests in Furville. Also, if we’re not going to build an MP there, then it is a good candidate to build a theater.

Why are we running a spy in Jute?

Spy in Braga can be shipped overseas and used as a scout during wartime.

There are units in Lagos that could be moved this turn and put on our galleon with GM next turn to be transported to the other continent.

Horseville will grow in two turns if a citizen is moved from a wkshop to a coastal tile.

Since we can’t continue to starve Ulundi indefinitely, perhaps this would be a good time to build up a little population while we quickly complete the needed galleon – thinking either removing 3 merchants onto 2 mined hills and one irrigated plain for three turns (or we could just put one merchant on a hill for 5 turns).

Before ending hostilities, we might want to run the cuirassier in Gui SE and see what is in the two remaining Portuguese cities – thinking there might be several workers and hopefully a weak defense in one (plus, the larger city would yield some gold if we razed it). As vassal cities, neither would contribute very much land area to Dom’n (or do coastal tiles count?), so we could get a cease fire and attack in a couple of turns.

Could the survival of buildings be affected by the extent of bombardment or by siege weapon attack? That would be logical.

Really like moving our medic axe in Coimbra to Braga for healing in route.

I’ve never won through vassals. Will the AI capitulate if doing so wins the game for you?
 
It’s small change at this point, but there are resource trades to be made:
Marble to Pericles and Caesar for gpt; cancel rice for wine and get gpt for it instead (from Boudica);
We can also get a total of 200 gold for our map, but it might be wise to wait (though perhaps we should get what we can before we attack Boudica and start making enemies).
Good idea concerning map trading. Not sure how long before we attack Boudica. I do have a question about this. It seems to me that in a recent game that I traded for a resource and, because of the deal, had to wait ten turns before I could declare war, I guess to honor the deal. Not sure which version of the software it was, but if we're thinking about attacking Boudica in the next ten turns, should we be careful of deals with her?

Are we counting on the GM from Economics?
It would provide some much needed gold for cash rushing wonders, if there is still a friendly civ to run a trade msiion to. Can we run it to a vassal?

Why are we running a spy in Jute?
The city just grew and I missed it in my late night haze... :blush:
Checking the Espionage Screen, Augustus must be targeting us with his espionage effort as the requirement for ep's to view his demographics has shot up significantly, now at 139 points. Gandhi's has remained at 26. Perhaps we should increase the weight with Augustus to 2? :D

Spy in Braga can be shipped overseas and used as a scout during wartime.
Good idea. :thumbsup:

There are units in Lagos that could be moved this turn and put on our galleon with GM next turn to be transported to the other continent.
Agree.

Horseville will grow in two turns if a citizen is moved from a wkshop to a coastal tile.
:thumbsup:

Since we can’t continue to starve Ulundi indefinitely, perhaps this would be a good time to build up a little population while we quickly complete the needed galleon – thinking either removing 3 merchants onto 2 mined hills and one irrigated plain for three turns (or we could just put one merchant on a hill for 5 turns).
I think I agree more with moving the one merchant for now. It delays the next great merchant by a single turn. Again, the gold will be nice for rushing wonders in Universal Suffrage.

Before ending hostilities, we might want to run the cuirassier in Gui SE and see what is in the two remaining Portuguese cities – thinking there might be several workers and hopefully a weak defense in one (plus, the larger city would yield some gold if we razed it). As vassal cities, neither would contribute very much land area to Dom’n (or do coastal tiles count?), so we could get a cease fire and attack in a couple of turns.
It would be interesting to have a look. I do not think coastal tiles count. If the cities are not Hindu, and I don't think they are, then Joao provides a foil against a religious victory and needs to be preserved in some way. I do agree that making him a vassal will end our ability to eliminate him if we needed to.

I’ve never won through vassals. Will the AI capitulate if doing so wins the game for you?
Oh yes, they certainly will. The question is how many cities one needs to take to force the issue.

I was looking over Boudica's territory. If we base her capitulation on the need to capture 4 or 5 cities, looks to me like we should go up her right flank. We must have Bibracte and Aachen, both wonder cities. In addition, we could grab Tolosa, Vienne and Verlamion, and, pehraps, Durnovaria? This would place us on Charlemagne's doorstep to grab Prague, Nuremberg and Ulm.
 
It’s small change at this point, but there are resource trades to be made:
Marble to Pericles and Caesar for gpt; cancel rice for wine and get gpt for it instead (from Boudica);
We can also get a total of 200 gold for our map, but it might be wise to wait (though perhaps we should get what we can before we attack Boudica and start making enemies).

Will do. I'd add to that trying to extort resources from our vassal Joao and trading them. I'd like to get some sugar and spices from Gandhi.

Are we counting on the GM from Economics?

Yes, I was counting on that for founding Sushi or Cereal Mills. Since no AI is close to Education yet, there's no hurry on Econ yet. Maybe we can trade for Guilds soon. Banking-Econ will take 3 turns.

Think we would benefit from a workshop on at least one of the grassland forests in Furville. Also, if we’re not going to build an MP there, then it is a good candidate to build a theater.

How about Globe Theater in Furville after Taj? We have 4/6 theaters needed right now. Furville has strong wonder potential with more workshops.

Spy in Braga can be shipped overseas and used as a scout during wartime.

Will do. Also, will start scouting Boudica's cities with our scout in India. I'd like to know whether we can begin the attack with a smaller force or if we need to wait for the Portugese forces. If we can take one city early, we can base 4 airships there and soften the subsequent cities.

There are units in Lagos that could be moved this turn and put on our galleon with GM next turn to be transported to the other continent.

Yes, I'll start transporting units right away to that nearby Roman city.

Horseville will grow in two turns if a citizen is moved from a wkshop to a coastal tile.

Good idea. If Chem comes in 2 turns, we want to have more population for workshops.

Since we can’t continue to starve Ulundi indefinitely, perhaps this would be a good time to build up a little population while we quickly complete the needed galleon – thinking either removing 3 merchants onto 2 mined hills and one irrigated plain for three turns (or we could just put one merchant on a hill for 5 turns).

As for the starvation, it will end once we start using Ulundi as a production city (with workshops). Shall we plan on 1 more GP from Ulundi or 2? If we get one more GM, we can run it to Delhi again for 1900 gold (or 2100 gold if X-ville gets to Pop18). The only objection I have to delaying Ulundi's next GP is that our current gold plus impending trade mission give us ~16 turns of 100% research at the current gpt rate. A GM born in 12 turns is coming just in time to keep us at 100% research for 7-8 more turns. Will getting the galleon in 3 turns make a big difference somewhere?

The next GP from Marbleville can combine with the free Spy from Communism for a golden age. It should come in time to extend the golden age from Taj.

Before ending hostilities, we might want to run the cuirassier in Gui SE and see what is in the two remaining Portuguese cities – thinking there might be several workers and hopefully a weak defense in one (plus, the larger city would yield some gold if we razed it). As vassal cities, neither would contribute very much land area to Dom’n (or do coastal tiles count?), so we could get a cease fire and attack in a couple of turns.

Will do and see if there's a chance to steal more workers. One advantage of leaving him those last 2 cities is that he has resources that we could extort (fur, crab).

Good idea concerning map trading. Not sure how long before we attack Boudica. I do have a question about this. It seems to me that in a recent game that I traded for a resource and, because of the deal, had to wait ten turns before I could declare war, I guess to honor the deal. Not sure which version of the software it was, but if we're thinking about attacking Boudica in the next ten turns, should we be careful of deals with her?

That only applies to demanding a gift from the AI. Bilateral trades don't carry 10 turn peace treaties.

It would be interesting to have a look. I do not think coastal tiles count. If the cities are not Hindu, and I don't think they are, then Joao provides a foil against a religious victory and needs to be preserved in some way. I do agree that making him a vassal will end our ability to eliminate him if we needed to.

I don't see why we would need to eliminate him. He wont build any wonders. If Hinduism spreads to one of his cities, eliminating him wouldn't change anything.

Oh yes, they certainly will. The question is how many cities one needs to take to force the issue.

I have finished Conquest victories through Capitulation. I think the AI decides based on power difference.

I was looking over Boudica's territory. If we base her capitulation on the need to capture 4 or 5 cities, looks to me like we should go up her right flank. We must have Bibracte and Aachen, both wonder cities. In addition, we could grab Tolosa, Vienne and Verlamion, and, pehraps, Durnovaria? This would place us on Charlemagne's doorstep to grab Prague, Nuremberg and Ulm.

This gets into the question of exactly how we want to pursue Domination/Conquest. Do we want to capture just the best cities and try to get capitulation quickly so we can move on to the next AI faster, aiming to vassalize everyone. Or do we want to gobble up as much population and land as possible and aim for more traditional domination? If we go for Conquest through capitulation, we need to fight everyone. We'll have more units surviving from battles with Boudica, Charlemagne, and Gandhi for taking on Augustus (who is nearly our power equal now), but then again, we'll have to subdue Rome and Greece. If we go for more traditional Domination, we'll need to take more time with Boudica, Charlemagne, and Gandhi, but may be able to trip Domination with some settler spam after just capturing Rome's wonders.
 
Looked through the save and came up with a proposed build list:

Marbleville - wealth
X-ville - Cuirs, frigate?
Ivoryville - trebs (how many more?), Cuirs
Pigville - Hermitage
Stoneville - galleon->airship
Canalville - galleon->worker->worker
Ulundi - galleon->theater?
Horseville - Cuirs
Jute - stable->airship->airship
Furville - Taj->theater
Braga - courthouse->airship->ForbiddenPalace
Oporto - courthouse->NotreDame?
Coimbra - worker
Lagos - galleon->worker
Lisbon - forge->Broadway?
Evora - worker
Guimaraes - airships

Please comment
 
This gets into the question of exactly how we want to pursue Domination/Conquest. Do we want to capture just the best cities and try to get capitulation quickly so we can move on to the next AI faster, aiming to vassalize everyone. Or do we want to gobble up as much population and land as possible and aim for more traditional domination? If we go for Conquest through capitulation, we need to fight everyone. We'll have more units surviving from battles with Boudica, Charlemagne, and Gandhi for taking on Augustus (who is nearly our power equal now), but then again, we'll have to subdue Rome and Greece. If we go for more traditional Domination, we'll need to take more time with Boudica, Charlemagne, and Gandhi, but may be able to trip Domination with some settler spam after just capturing Rome's wonders.
Thanks for this post. When I read it earlier, it got me to thinking, a dangerous thing... ;)

Boudica is not well liked by her fellow civs, both that are in the + column (Pericles and Charlie) are vassals of someone else. Augustus and Boudica are cautious towards each other while Gandhi and Boudica are annoyed with each other. This should delay her becoming a vassal of either. In order to hedge our bets, perhaps a good strategy would be to take as much of Boudica's land and population as we think is fruitful. This will prevent her from building any more wonders and may provide us a base that may produce a few units for our continued adventures. And it shouldn't take much to push Charlemagne over the edge either. This would also reduce cultural pressures on our new acquisitions.

Once we get established, the combination of Airships and Cuirassier should make the conquest of the interior relatively quick, provided we have enough of what we need. Once we have this accomplished, it looks to me like Gandhi is next. I think you said it earlier, that we should quickly take as many cities as possible and force him to capitulate to us, not to Augustus. Nearly all of Gandhi's important cities are coastal, except Bombay. Also, the Christian Shrine city, Vijay.. can be reached in one turn by Cuirassier. The problem will be bombardment. But a quick strike on Delhi and a movement of Airships into the captured city should allow us to take it the next turn? Now I'm getting too far ahead... :rolleyes:
 
Looked through the save and came up with a proposed build list:

Please comment
I am unsure how the Forbidden Palace in Civ 4 really works? Does it cut distance maintenance by a % or does it matter how close cities are to it, as in Civ3? I ask because Braga could continue building Airships and Lisbon could build the Forbidden Palace and then Broadway? This area is pretty food poor. How are we going to prioritize worker effort. The greatest payoff in hammers would seem to be Guimaraes because it has plenty of food. I think it merits a Worker pair? The Cow bonus on plains doesn't give us much food. :hmm:

We have 5 siege units, 4 cats and a Treb in the west. A Galleon out of Lagos is important. :thumbsup: Once the next Treb comes out of Ivoryville, that may be enough for an initial assault? Airships until we have 4, then Cuirassier?

I think the rest of the list looks pretty good. :goodjob:
 
I am unsure how the Forbidden Palace in Civ 4 really works? Does it cut distance maintenance by a % or does it matter how close cities are to it, as in Civ3? I ask because Braga could continue building Airships and Lisbon could build the Forbidden Palace and then Broadway? This area is pretty food poor. How are we going to prioritize worker effort. The greatest payoff in hammers would seem to be Guimaraes because it has plenty of food. I think it merits a Worker pair? The Cow bonus on plains doesn't give us much food. :hmm:

FP works just like the Palace - it reduces distance maintenance in nearby cities (the nearer, the better). The reason I'm suggesting building it in Braga is that it can be built there before it becomes useless. State Property eliminates all distance maintenance, effectively obsoleting the FP and Versailles. If we build it in Lisbon, we'll never get any use from it (except for wonder points). If we were to research Communism (4 turns) before Mass Media, building FP in Braga would be nearly useless as well. In such a case, we could just build it in any old place before the game is over.

For the 5 workers in Portugese lands now, and for the new ones from Portugese cities, I was thinking that first they should do any needed chopping (galleon in Lagos, maybe FP in Braga). Then they could workshop any empty grassland in the Guimaraes-Lisbon-Oporto-Braga corridor. Then chop grass forests and build workshops underneath. Then build workshops on empty plains, and finally on top of cottages. Since no one Portugese city is going to be very big (like X-ville or Ulundi), these cities can build some of the cheaper wonders and prereq buildings (banks), while our most productive cities build the really expensive wonders at the end (UN, Hollywood, Rock, Cristo).

New workers out of Canalville are needed most around Ulundi I think.

Maybe Guimaraes can do the Eiffel Tower after we get Radio?

We have 5 siege units, 4 cats and a Treb in the west. A Galleon out of Lagos is important. :thumbsup: Once the next Treb comes out of Ivoryville, that may be enough for an initial assault? Airships until we have 4, then Cuirassier?

Accuracy trebs reduce defenses at 24% per turn in cities with no walls or castles (like most of Boudica's coastal cities). So 3 is enough to reduce a city to 0% in 1 turn. 6 trebs would let us open the battle against Boudica attacking 2 cities at once, so I was thinking that might be the right number. Depends on what our scout finds though.

8 airships (eventually) would be nice so that we could fill two front-line cities. Many cities will have more than 4 defenders, but rarely more than 8. And airships can attack units that might otherwise attempt to attack our stacks, but which will need at least a turn to heal after being attacked.
 
The reason I'm suggesting building it in Braga is that it can be built there before it becomes useless. State Property eliminates all distance maintenance, effectively obsoleting the FP and Versailles. If we build it in Lisbon, we'll never get any use from it (except for wonder points). If we were to research Communism (4 turns) before Mass Media, building FP in Braga would be nearly useless as well. In such a case, we could just build it in any old place before the game is over.
Perhaps we should consider grabbing Communism before Mass Media so we can get a start on The Kremlin and the 33% discount on cash rushing? As we will also be conquering soon, the State Property civic can't hurt either.

As Forbidden Palace is only 200 Hammers, given your reasoning above, we should build it in a backwater somewhere and use higher production cities as you describe, but also to build Airships.

For the 5 workers in Portugese lands now, and for the new ones from Portugese cities, I was thinking that first they should do any needed chopping (galleon in Lagos, maybe FP in Braga). Then they could workshop any empty grassland in the Guimaraes-Lisbon-Oporto-Braga corridor. Then chop grass forests and build workshops underneath. Then build workshops on empty plains, and finally on top of cottages. Since no one Portugese city is going to be very big (like X-ville or Ulundi), these cities can build some of the cheaper wonders and prereq buildings (banks), while our most productive cities build the really expensive wonders at the end (UN, Hollywood, Rock, Cristo).
Yes, I think makes good sense. I only hope we have sufficient food to work them all.

Accuracy trebs reduce defenses at 24% per turn in cities with no walls or castles (like most of Boudica's coastal cities). So 3 is enough to reduce a city to 0% in 1 turn. 6 trebs would let us open the battle against Boudica attacking 2 cities at once, so I was thinking that might be the right number. Depends on what our scout finds though.
Yes, I should have spent time scouting around Boudica. We currently have 4 Trebs, so two more should do it. We have 14 Cuirassier scattered around a bit. Many can be near X-ville in 5 or 6 turns overland. But many need healing, so a stop over in Braga with our Axe is what the doctor ordered... :mischief:

8 airships (eventually) would be nice so that we could fill two front-line cities. Many cities will have more than 4 defenders, but rarely more than 8. And airships can attack units that might otherwise attempt to attack our stacks, but which will need at least a turn to heal after being attacked.
Airships cost the same as Trebs, so Ivoryville can push out one every two turns.

We should also consider building a couple of units with Medic1 to sit in captured cities to aid in healing Cuirassier.
 
My two cents worth for this day:

Regarding spy points, thinking it might make more sense to put all of them on India. It would be helpful to know what Gandhi is building in his good cities, since wonders may be being constructed there, and we obviously want to avoid duplication of effort. We won’t learn much about Augustus without some significant investment. Could he hurt us much with spies?

Regarding the need for a galleon quickly out of Ulundi, if we get one in three turns it will set sail the same turn that Lagos comes out of anarchy and would be in place to move units in 4 turns. We could get a galleon chopped in Lagos a bit quicker, but there are other good uses for those hammers, such as a wonder or frigates. SCT, in calculating the need for more gold in 16 turns, are you factoring in a GA from the TAJ? The three turn slow down shouldn’t set us back many turns on a GM.

Theater, then Globe in Furville after Taj makes sense.

Fur and crabs are, of course, resources we already have, so extorting them is not a great benefit except for trading.

I’m having trouble projecting where we’ll be in about 30 turns, when a second GM could be created in Ulundi. There may be no one to establish a trade route with. Reiterate leif’s question of the possibility and profitability of a trade route with a vassal. If we don’t think there will be a good use for a second GM from Ulundi, perhaps a theater is not the best use of the city – rather, we could finish the WAT (still have 85 hammers invested in that). Would the extra hammer from priests be of any benefit?

Not clear on the logic of a forge in Lisbon and not in Oporto.

Regarding Conquest vs Dom’n, wondering if there is a need to decide now. It would be informative to see how quickly we are able to conquer Celtic cities, how soon capitulation is offered, and how opposing militaries are ramped up. Can airships be used to pillage strategic resource improvements?
 
Also, the Christian Shrine city, Vijay.. can be reached in one turn by Cuirassier. The problem will be bombardment. But a quick strike on Delhi and a movement of Airships into the captured city should allow us to take it the next turn? Now I'm getting too far ahead... :rolleyes:

Don't forget about spies inciting revolts. Maybe position 2 there (one for back up incase one is caught)
 
Do you know approximately how much gold a revolt there would cost, rrau?
Combined with your idea of directing our Espionage Points against Gandhi, this is an interesting idea. I'll take a stab at it and SCT can correct me... :)

Gandhi is directing his EP's against Boudica and Charlemagne. While our ratio with Augustus is 371/47, with Gandhi it is 0/47. To make it work, we need to do a couple of things. First, we need a Confucian Missionary sent to Vijay to give it our state religion. Next, we need a Spy, or two, to get there and sit in the city for 5 turns. If we do those things, and Gandhi continues spending little on EP's with us, then:

From SCT's primer on Espionage:
Base cost of supporting a city revolt with Gandhi is 715 EP's.
Modifiers are: -50% for Stationary Spy, -25% for State Religion in his city, +25 or 30% for distance penalty and then there would be a modifer for our ratio of EP's against him versus the EP's he has accumulated against us. The estimate is that it would cost in the vicinity of 300 EP's.

We are producing +14 EP's per turn. Turning them all to Gandhi would mean about 22 turns. If we fire the Spy in Jute, it would take nearly 30 turns, or we can get 21 EP's per turn per 10% on the Espionage Slider. Once we hit the beeline to Mass Media, we can probably afford to spend some Gold on EP's.
 
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