greatbeyond
King
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- Jan 7, 2002
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Nice one, ... but it's not April Fools Day yet!
SGOTM 09 - Fifth Element
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
I got the save, let me try to fogbust before take a decision.
Edit:
done, my thoughts are:
1) send the scout where you like, he will reveal nothing interesting, but more forests, i think.
2) no room for a city north if we settle riverside, so i propose: pity for the Levee, but we'll settle ON the N corn: not a great move in long term, but the capital will be coastal (great for trade routes later) and we can access the fish and gain some time on the first worker.
3) revolt to PS and Environment on turn 0
4) first build Warrior, then worker, warrior, settler. No WB until we'll have triremes: when Gyathaar says "barbs are meaner" i'm worried for our nets.
5) research: wheel, then mining > BW
More thoughts:
We'll need lots of Forest preserve to keep our people happy, but they're good for commerce, too.
Edit:
done, my thoughts are:
1) send the scout where you like, he will reveal nothing interesting, but more forests, i think.
2) no room for a city north if we settle riverside, so i propose: pity for the Levee, but we'll settle ON the N corn: not a great move in long term, but the capital will be coastal (great for trade routes later) and we can access the fish and gain some time on the first worker.
3) revolt to PS and Environment on turn 0
4) first build Warrior, then worker, warrior, settler. No WB until we'll have triremes: when Gyathaar says "barbs are meaner" i'm worried for our nets.
5) research: wheel, then mining > BW
More thoughts:
We'll need lots of Forest preserve to keep our people happy, but they're good for commerce, too.
greatbeyond
King
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2002
- Messages
- 989
I would send the Scout 2S1E. It is a hill and will reveal more of our terrain. There is land to the SE and what appears to be a grassland 1S of the hill.
I wasn't sure, but I checked and we can revolt before we settle. We should do so, as it won't cost us any wasted turns later.
City location:
In my tests I've been settling 2N1E. This allows the city to quickly grow very large. It is especially good if there is a second sea resource within the BFC.
I'll try a couple of games settling on the corn (1N1E) and see how it looks.
I will also modify the test map a little to conform to the additional tiles visible in the fog. There seems to be more open area to the NW along the coast
Build order:
I have been building a WB first, another WB (if a second sea resource is there), then a Worker. Sometimes I have built a 2nd Worker before starting the GW. After the GW I build a defensive unit for the extra happy face, and then a Settler to set up a city to build the Oracle in.
Barbs have been ferocious in the test games and the GW saves a lot of pain. I have been able to build both the Oracle and the Pyramids very quickly. In only one test did I have to worry about the Barbs getting to me before the GW was completed, as I was trying to build it without whipping.
Techs: I favor Mining, BW, Masonry, Myst, Meditation, PH.
I used the Oracle to pop Genetics. Not very useful until later, but at 7K beakers it's a steal.
I wasn't sure, but I checked and we can revolt before we settle. We should do so, as it won't cost us any wasted turns later.
City location:
In my tests I've been settling 2N1E. This allows the city to quickly grow very large. It is especially good if there is a second sea resource within the BFC.
I'll try a couple of games settling on the corn (1N1E) and see how it looks.
I will also modify the test map a little to conform to the additional tiles visible in the fog. There seems to be more open area to the NW along the coast
Build order:
I have been building a WB first, another WB (if a second sea resource is there), then a Worker. Sometimes I have built a 2nd Worker before starting the GW. After the GW I build a defensive unit for the extra happy face, and then a Settler to set up a city to build the Oracle in.
Barbs have been ferocious in the test games and the GW saves a lot of pain. I have been able to build both the Oracle and the Pyramids very quickly. In only one test did I have to worry about the Barbs getting to me before the GW was completed, as I was trying to build it without whipping.
Techs: I favor Mining, BW, Masonry, Myst, Meditation, PH.
I used the Oracle to pop Genetics. Not very useful until later, but at 7K beakers it's a steal.
greatbeyond
King
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Here is the revised save. A few tiles have been changed from Grass to plains, forest removed, and added. Oil was removed as I didn't realize it was visible at this stage.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
First off, thanks again to GB for his efforts on the test games.
Sure Genetics is appealing, and electricity, wich unlocks Broadway.
But also the poor MC has its pros.
Too soon to discuss this, it's a great doubt for now.
I suppose we must try the GW even if i suspect there's no stone nearby.
Sure Genetics is appealing, and electricity, wich unlocks Broadway.
But also the poor MC has its pros.
Too soon to discuss this, it's a great doubt for now.
I suppose we must try the GW even if i suspect there's no stone nearby.
unclethrill
Why am I up right now?
I agree that the GW is probably gonna be a must. As far as Genetics goes, it is a steal but from a turn and benefit standpoint is it really the best choice. Of course we have to get the oracle first. Depending who the AI are, this may not be trivial. If we can get an advanced tech that will really give us a leg up then I'm all for it but even as a SC game we are gonna need to roll a couple people due to the size of the map. An early advanced unit may be a better choice. MM are a solid unit for quite a while and the sooner we get them the faster we can really dominate.
unclethrill
Why am I up right now?
Okay I made a couple tries at the sample game. It is gonna be a real trade off as to whether to build the GW or get BW and build phal for expansion. A quick hit will be needed if we want to really cripple the AI. I took about 6 Phal at HC and was summarily dismissed by his Archers.
I'm not so sure about the GW now. Barbarians are not really a big issue in the early part and the map size will stop spawnning in the fog pretty quick.
I'm not so sure about the GW now. Barbarians are not really a big issue in the early part and the map size will stop spawnning in the fog pretty quick.
unclethrill
Why am I up right now?
I think move the scout 2S1W. It isn't on a hill but it has the potential to reveal more land. 2S1E will show more but the potential for a bunch of water seems to negate that.
Well, my initial thoughts were to settle on the on the northern corn, but the discussions on capitol south on the river and GP farm in the north there made me change my mind.
So, I'd say the scout to go S1W and probably the settler SE of the current location.
Hopefully I'll get a test game played this weekend.
So, I'd say the scout to go S1W and probably the settler SE of the current location.
Hopefully I'll get a test game played this weekend.
unclethrill
Why am I up right now?
Just got a new computer and need to get Linux loaded. I may be offline for a day or so.
greatbeyond
King
- Joined
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- 989
Techs
While replaying yet another test, I think Electricity is a better choice than Genetics. It is more useful in the early game. The problem with trying to get Metal Casting is that the timeline to complete the Oracle successfully, appears to be before MC is reached on the tech tree. One thing I have noticed is that depending on what you research, there are later period techs that become available long before you get to them via the tech tree. It wasn't noticeable with Genetics, but it was with Electricity.
MC is a very good choice to pursue as I have been able to build the Colossus most games, and it really helps the gold income.
Wonders
I have never had to have Stone hooked up to complete the GW before any of the other Civs. I have used it for the Pyramids.
The wonders I have routinely completed are (in order): GW, Oracle, Colossus, Pyramids, Hanging Gardens
Scouting
If you zoom in as closely as you can , you'll see that moving the Scout 2S1W will only reveal one square of Forest. He'll be on ground level and can't see past the first tile of Forest. There may be a bonus tile past that but the Scout won't be able to see that until at least the next turn. I am thinking that the Forest was placed like it is to slow down the Scout to keep the player from knowing what better/worse tiles are nearby. Perhaps to discourage you from settling anywhere but near the starting area.
Once we are in somewhat of an agreement on where to move the Scout, (perhaps by Saturday night/Sunday morning?) then Sweetachson can move him and take a screen shot. Then we can update the test map if necessary and compare notes on the couple of proposed settling sites. Then each play a couple of tests.
City sites so far.
Site A: 1N1E Corn
Site B: 2N1E on coast
Site C: Ideas?
While replaying yet another test, I think Electricity is a better choice than Genetics. It is more useful in the early game. The problem with trying to get Metal Casting is that the timeline to complete the Oracle successfully, appears to be before MC is reached on the tech tree. One thing I have noticed is that depending on what you research, there are later period techs that become available long before you get to them via the tech tree. It wasn't noticeable with Genetics, but it was with Electricity.
MC is a very good choice to pursue as I have been able to build the Colossus most games, and it really helps the gold income.
Wonders
I have never had to have Stone hooked up to complete the GW before any of the other Civs. I have used it for the Pyramids.
The wonders I have routinely completed are (in order): GW, Oracle, Colossus, Pyramids, Hanging Gardens
Scouting
If you zoom in as closely as you can , you'll see that moving the Scout 2S1W will only reveal one square of Forest. He'll be on ground level and can't see past the first tile of Forest. There may be a bonus tile past that but the Scout won't be able to see that until at least the next turn. I am thinking that the Forest was placed like it is to slow down the Scout to keep the player from knowing what better/worse tiles are nearby. Perhaps to discourage you from settling anywhere but near the starting area.
Once we are in somewhat of an agreement on where to move the Scout, (perhaps by Saturday night/Sunday morning?) then Sweetachson can move him and take a screen shot. Then we can update the test map if necessary and compare notes on the couple of proposed settling sites. Then each play a couple of tests.
City sites so far.
Site A: 1N1E Corn
Site B: 2N1E on coast
Site C: Ideas?
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
GB, i guess you're right about the scout.
I'm convinced there's NO land north, so i abandoned my initial thought to settle S to have city #2 (Sparta) N to grab corn and fish.
If you want to have a confirmation on this, just send the scout NW.
I'm more and more convinced the best location for Athens will be the coastal corn (1N1E of settler, IIRC).
Let's try to figure an optimal research path:
1) Wheel
2) mining > BW
3a) agri > pottery > WRITING, for our cheap libraries OR
3b) AH > Wri
4) Myst > Masonry > (for GW and Mids) Poly > PH for Oracle
Let's try to make good use of our UU, one of the best in BtS, i think.
Alpha will come later, i'd like to be more aggressive this game.
Eit - Idea: If we can complete the Oracle, we can take CoL or MC, a classic.
But we can use Lib for Elec or Gen!!!
I'm convinced there's NO land north, so i abandoned my initial thought to settle S to have city #2 (Sparta) N to grab corn and fish.
If you want to have a confirmation on this, just send the scout NW.
I'm more and more convinced the best location for Athens will be the coastal corn (1N1E of settler, IIRC).
Let's try to figure an optimal research path:
1) Wheel
2) mining > BW
3a) agri > pottery > WRITING, for our cheap libraries OR
3b) AH > Wri
4) Myst > Masonry > (for GW and Mids) Poly > PH for Oracle
Let's try to make good use of our UU, one of the best in BtS, i think.
Alpha will come later, i'd like to be more aggressive this game.
Eit - Idea: If we can complete the Oracle, we can take CoL or MC, a classic.
But we can use Lib for Elec or Gen!!!
I don't like settling on the corn. The additional food is gained by having a farm on the tile, not placing the city there. I think we need to settle where we can pick up two corn farms and be coastal for the seafood. This capital city will make a great GP farm in the late game and a tremendous slavery production center in the early game with three food resources.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
I don't like it too, but i think it's the better solution.
You can't find another coastal spot with fresh water (the 1-tile-lake) and access to fish.
Other pros are that we have some forests (some along the river) and hills to work, and that with a LH the lake will provide 3 foods.
You can add that despite being coastal that city will have no more than 5 sea tiles.
No, i let that farmed corn, pity, but i think we must go there.
greatbeyond
King
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- 989
Site B does have fresh water access, it will have the Fish, both Corn, and both Hills. I have been able to get a pop of over 20 in my tests. The only limit being happiness. The Hills are essential to provide much needed Hammers for the city.
I see settling on the Corn to get the extra food as a possibility if we are going to go for a Worker or Settler first. We need to run some tests for around 50 turns and see how things stack up.
The Wheel first does not provide us any benefit. We want to start the GW as soon as possible, thus Mining then Masonry, followed by BW so that we can pop rush if necessary.
In my tests Barbs do not appear very early but when they do, they come in great numbers. Of course, there could be some nasty surprises the designer has made for us.
Sending the Scout NW won't help much initially I fear, as we see Ice to the North, but perhaps there could be a couple of ocean resources. I don't think that would be enough reason to move from where we are. Since we have a coast to the East, I had considered moving the Settler West to keep the other Civs blocked a little. I fear though we may spend 3 turns moving and either find worse land or another Civ very close.
I see settling on the Corn to get the extra food as a possibility if we are going to go for a Worker or Settler first. We need to run some tests for around 50 turns and see how things stack up.
The Wheel first does not provide us any benefit. We want to start the GW as soon as possible, thus Mining then Masonry, followed by BW so that we can pop rush if necessary.
In my tests Barbs do not appear very early but when they do, they come in great numbers. Of course, there could be some nasty surprises the designer has made for us.
Sending the Scout NW won't help much initially I fear, as we see Ice to the North, but perhaps there could be a couple of ocean resources. I don't think that would be enough reason to move from where we are. Since we have a coast to the East, I had considered moving the Settler West to keep the other Civs blocked a little. I fear though we may spend 3 turns moving and either find worse land or another Civ very close.
I think that we need to scout to the north to see how the coastline is formed. If the tile to the north of the lake has access to the coast, it is probably the best location because it gives more land tiles while also giving access to the corn and the seafood. If not, then the forest tile to the north of the corn is better because it has seafood, lake, and corn access.
As was already pointed out, if we change civics on turn 1, then we do not lose anything by moving 2 spaces and settling on turn 2 since we will be in revolt the first turn.
I am interestd in the idea of testing the fast build for a worker by settling on the corn. In the long run, working three food resources will probably be better in my mind.
As was already pointed out, if we change civics on turn 1, then we do not lose anything by moving 2 spaces and settling on turn 2 since we will be in revolt the first turn.
I am interestd in the idea of testing the fast build for a worker by settling on the corn. In the long run, working three food resources will probably be better in my mind.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
Do NOT settle N of the lake no, never.
Trust me, NE corn is the best solution.
Research-wise, i can agree to delay wheel, but remember that Myst gives a bonus for Masonry.
BTW, after his anticipated april fool, where is our beloved active player?
Trust me, NE corn is the best solution.
Research-wise, i can agree to delay wheel, but remember that Myst gives a bonus for Masonry.
BTW, after his anticipated april fool, where is our beloved active player?
berserks01
Obviously Very Confused
Sorry I've been oop, my daughter suddenly got a bad virus and high fever so I've been dealing with that.
I agree with Mesix about not settling on the corn. It only gives you 3F as opposed to the >5F it could potentially be. We'll need a really good GP farm to through out those GPeople we need to either bulb techs or speed up builds.
Agreed with delaying the wheel as well.
I agree with Mesix about not settling on the corn. It only gives you 3F as opposed to the >5F it could potentially be. We'll need a really good GP farm to through out those GPeople we need to either bulb techs or speed up builds.
Agreed with delaying the wheel as well.
berserks01
Obviously Very Confused
If we're not planning on settling on the first turn, how about moving the settler to 2E1S while moving the scout 2S1W?
unclethrill
Why am I up right now?
I also agree with not settling on the corn for those exact same reasons. I have been known to be wrong before but in the long run, 4 food with a farm versus 1 extra food seems to not make sense. Is one extra food from the start a huge advantage due to the quick speed?
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