SGOTM 09 - Fifth Element

[BLubmuz]

Xposted with me

I can play tonight, or tomorrow night as soon as the comments are in. I think it's still simple enough to get it done in an hour.
If I'm playing tomorrow night, I'll post a revised PPP tonight or tomorrow AM taking into account all comments.

If enough comments are gathered, i'm all to speed this. So i prefer tonight if we have consensus.

Do we want a vote on the HS ?
My gut feeling is it's not worth it, not when we need Unis, courthouses and paras needed. But, I'm happy to go down that route if that's the consensus.

Unis are useless without commerce generated from the improvements. HS means faster windmills and FPs, all generating gold. But since LP if fully structured the problem is: better the HS or 2 Paras?

I have no doubt.

Pindus can contribute with some Para for the Portuguese campaign and we can start the war with 8 Paras, better 10, ready to take Nippur jumping from Athens and Corinth.

 

[Simon_c]

OK. I may get a chance to post an updated PPP this afternoon some time, but assuming nobody sais "STOP" I'll play tonight, probably around 2200 UK time.

 

[Sweetacshon]

The unis are for Oxford, not for the cities they are built in. Last time I checked , LP produced about 85% of our science!!! Is this not still the case?

BTW, using the argument "well, we already researched theo" for building HS is NOT a valid one. The only decision is whether the benefit outweighs the cost. What's in the past is in the past. Why not gather our 8 troopers (or whatever the number is) and get attacking before any more wonders.

 

[BLubmuz]

The unis are for Oxford, not for the cities they are built in. Last time I checked , LP produced about 85% of our science!!! Is this not still the case?

BTW, using the argument "well, we already researched theo" for building HS is NOT a valid one. OK, i take it. Anyway is good to trade, as you can see in previous The only decision is whether the benefit outweighs the cost. What's in the past is in the past. Why not gather our 8 troopers (or whatever the number is) and get attacking before any more wonders.

hm... OU will need some 10 turns to be built. 5 with stone.
We can't have everything.

With an improved land our cities will better contribute to research.
I'm afraid that OU will have to wait until we'll have Joao's stone. A waste. pity.
But over 20 cities up and running will compensate.

The HS will pays for itself in no time in terms of improvements for the other cities.
Send a single worker to a tile, road in 1 turn. then the ones needed to improve will join and the improvement is done in 1 turn by 2, 3 or 4 workers stacked. Send them to a forest (each one in a different one), turn lost, road. then they will join again and improve. No price for this.
I even built 2 useless FPs to help spread the forest for Pindus. Successfully. then chopped. you can do thing like this with the HS. Waiting for Steam is too long. Workers cost in terms of maintenance, too.

8 Paras are the minimum, but we need to have 3 more almost built. 10 is great. Remember that Hammu has SoZ.
I'll post a war plan right before the thing will start.
In the meantime i recommend to take a look at my "guide on Paras warfare" linked in #3. and to experiment with test games on WB. Misclicks are quite easy with paras, better be prepared and play with great attention.

 

[Mesix]

Pollution will be more of a problem in New York as that will be where most of our great people will come from after Bio.

If we want a GP for a shrine, we better try for it now. Athens currently has an 80% chance at a GP if we boost the GPP generated there by building a temple we can be pretty assured of a GP. The shrine will be a big $$$ maker if we can crank out a few missionaries under OR.

If we trade for Engineering then we only need 2 techs to reach Bio. Chemistry > Biology should be our tech path after trading on the first turn of the upcoming TS.

 

[Mesix]

Sorry, the NP/NE city is Pindus, not New York. Perhaps we can rename it Jellystone or something to remind os of the city's purpose. We should build a Library and a University there after the Granery to prep it for all of the free scientists. We should also get workers down there to build forest preserves.

 

[Simon_c]

Sofar, I don't see a consensus on
a) building the HS LP. sofar, i favour BLubmuz's analysis, over my gut feelings and Sweetacshon's warmongering tendencies. but only jsut.

b) so shrine or not to shrine. I guess if we can spread it quick enough during the GA, it's worth 30/turn before Wall St. But, that would take LP out of action while it's air-lifting missionaries to the other cities. If we can spread it to someone who would spread it for us, that would be worth big bucks to us. Do any of the AIs we have go for culture victories ? Lizzy is always a good one but I don't see here here.

c) do I build paras for war, or the plan I had (and slip a worker or two more in there)

d) Was the outline plan for workers accepted ?

I'm out this evening, but unless I see some consensus I'll post a revised, detailed PPP tonight and play tomorrow night.

 

[Mesix]

Let's hold off on trading Theo to anyone. Hammy is the only other player with Theo, and if we keep it that way then he will build the AP for us under the Jewish faith. We can then capture the AP and take over all of his cities with tthe AP religion already spread. A few missionaries under OR and we can have AP in all of our cities for +2 and +2 (one from FR when we adopt and one from the temple). We never need to adopt a religion.

We can hold off on the campaign against Hammy for a few turns. That will give us time to recover our economy and get a bigger force of Paratroopers. That will also give him time to build the AP for us. Maybe he will continue to spread Judism since he is running OR already.

 

[BLubmuz]

The risk of HC build the AP is high if we trade Theo to him.
But we need another partner than Wang. And we can't afford to give to Wang more advanced techs, at least until we have won the Economic race.
A solution can be stand by for some turn, say 3-4. But we need Feud for the Economics race and to see Guilds.
Probably Hammu is already building the AP, usually - in my tests - I capture Babylon with the AP and the SoZ.

Perhaps you noticed it, but after the initial missionary spread in almost any of our cities, he stopped.
He's busy building wonders.

So, the 7 turns delay to build the HS will give him more time for that.

Mesix, our under-developed cities have more important things to do than build missionaries. And by the time they can afford to build them, 30 gpt are not that great. A nice help, no more.
The 3 core will build Paras, followed by some of the 2nd vawe.
We need at least 25 of them to take Joao quickly. And with 2 Medic II Paras

Astro has to be prioritized to Bio, if we want to trade for resources with the other continent. Just to remember, the NP - in Pindus - will need FPs built, and to be built itself. Another good help, but not like the Paras. And the HS before them.
Please remember also the SoL: 1 specialist per city. 25 cities = 75 raw beakers if we run an engineer.
What is the NP? 9 free sci = 54 raw.

BTW, a simple math: Pindus needs some 9 FP, 11 if you build the useless to try to spread the forests.
9*(6+2)=72 without roads. 6 to build the FP, 1 to move in, 1 to move out
with HS: 9*(4+2)=54 with roads (1 to move in, 1 to road). Only for Pindus. And you're doubting to build it?

Remember? i managed to arrive on Alpha Centauri before turn 200 with this strategy.
I'd like to see if anyone can beat this.

 

[unclethrill]

I agree with BLub on the math for the HS. Those improvements will help the economy too. In addition we need CH ASAP in the cities. These two things will do the most good. I like the idea of a shrine but I'm not sure if both the gamble and the lost other GP is worth the potential results. I think we build a shrine if a GP pops but otherwise we need to go with the tried and true CH.

I also like the idea of warring sooner than later but I'm a warmonger at heart. The downside of it is that 25 cities are great but 25 cities at 0 research and no units is a quick ticket to another piece of wood.

 

[greatbeyond]

I'm not against the HS. It will help us build infrastructure quicker and will give us GE points for great people. These apply even after Steam Power. We don't want to build the HS in LP if we want Oxford there. Our next quickest city to build in would be Athens.

"Trades: Wang will give us Engineering, compass, world map and 30 for Monoetheism, Civil Service and Philosophy. 1720-1430. Not too bad. "
I like this trade even though we are giving away CS which I'd like to keep a little longer. I'd be curious to see what other techs we can get after we make this one.

Research Nationalism then Chemistry and Biology

Happy - there are a couple of ways to do this:
Temples and Odeons - This fits with a plan to build Missionaries and eventually a shrine. 30G/turn times the multipliers adds up very quickly.
Luxuries - This fits with Astro, but if we get use one of the other paths we won't need it for awhile.
Notre Dame - This will take some time to build (unless we pop with a GE) but it gives 2 happy faces in each city and never goes away. Our happy cap would be a minimum of 7 in each new city, and that doesn't count Odeons and the Luxs we have now.

Of these three I prefer ND.

Theo/AP/shrine - Let Hammy build these, we'll take it as soon as he's done. In the meantime we can crank out some Jewish Missionaries in between some builds and be ready to settle them as soon as we get the AP. This means don't trade Theo yet.
I still think we could go with either Pacifism or OR for some immediate benefits.

Warmongering - As suggested by Sweeta the Hun, let's get our Para's ready. First order of business is Beaver City. Remember there is no city razing so we have to be ready to take cities quickly and build Courthouses first. We could always switch civics and cash rush (turning research to zero) for a few turns

 

[BLubmuz]

AAAaaaaaarrrrgh!!!​

Notre Dame without stone?

argh!

Let Joao build it for us, possibly. AIs loves engineering for pikemen and for ND, too.

I'd like too Bio, but Astro first will ensure much needed resources. Otherwise we can arrive too late. And the Trade Routes? a big improvement on that side, research and cash will raise a lot.
Mainly after we'll eliminate Hammu and DoW Joao

Odeons first: incredibly cheap and 2 happies: first build in any new conquered city, no doubt.

Unclethrill, in my tests in always kept research at least @30%. After a certain number (12, IIRC) of cities we'll be on the cap of "number of cities" = 6 gpt in any city. Just run a merchant and you almost compensate.

Piece of wood? you can come here and plug it in my axx if we don't get a medal.

The HS in Athens? it's not stupid, but i think it will take too long. We need the benefits from the HS ASAP.
Pollution? a GE is always welcome, he's not a damn spy.

 

[Simon_c]

So, here's the revised PPP

I think the only thing that is stopping me playing is the trades to do. The other things under discussion don't need to be decided now.




TS 15 goals:
research: Nationalism for the Taj. I don't think anyone was against that while we get our trades sorted out to get Economics for the next turnset. Keep at 40%. (we could bring nat in in 8T, but it will burn through our gold)

Wonders: HighSophia in LaunchPad.

Trades: The discussion seemd to be not give Copac theo, otherwise he'll go and build the AP. I'm not sure how we know Wang will have Optics for the deal Bulbz suggested, he could have spent all our money by the time he has optics.
How about:
Huaya Copac: Feudalism for Paper +185

Wang: Aesthetics Compas and Engineering +10 for civil services, philosophy and metal casting ? If Wang has optics, he would probably trade it for paper + some If we give theo to Wang, then I think HC will end up with it anyway if he has anything left to trade with wang cos he HC likes wang.


demands: I guess older techs, say < 400 :beakers: is OK to give away *if* we are not on +4 trading with them. otherwise people can sod off. Unless it's Joao with a stack on our borders.

Cities:
LaunchPad: Keep always at least 3Sci + 1Eng at work - HS (7) xbow(1) para(3)
Athens: Para (3t) Para (9)
Bulbzville: Airport (2) Baracks(2) Para (6)
Pindus: Granary (2), Library (4), University (8), NE (assuming literature by then) <> NP (assuming bio)
Spata: Lighthouse(3) Courthouse(12). Is this a good location for the Moai Statues ? Or keep them for Atlantis ?

Panama City: Granary(3), Courthouse(40)
NewYork: Lighthouse(4) Forge(12). I propose a workshop or watermill 1E at least until the city is developed. Preserve forests. (lower priority than Pindus)
Corinth: forge (37) I think we need a mine in the hills

GPersons: If GS, settle. If GSpy, keep for a GA. If a GE, keep him at sleep: half the SoL.

Workers: We have 8, and could do with more. I want one in NY, and one in Corinth area to improve those. I want at least 2, Panama area to cut down that jungle. two to Pindus to start preserving it. I guess the other two can continue the irrigation chain planned for Athens on my last TS.
EDIT: I plan to reroute roads away from the Plains pindus' BFC to and hope the we get more forest growth.

Airship: I'll recon Africa with it.

Religion: No plans to spread anything yet. Depends on who builds the AP, and what shrines are built, and if we pop a GProf

Civics: to be decided before Taj built. No change yet.

Espionage: Do we drop Joao back to 1 now he's equaled up to the others ?

War: two paras built in Athens to jump to the island to capture it. Probably around T106. Airship to support.

 

[unclethrill]

Looks good to me.

 

[BLubmuz]

Looks pretty good to me too, but:

Feud for paper +185g. is good, but what if we wait some turn to give time to Hammu, then we give him paper?
Not sure about this, to you the choice. But maybe it's the way to go. Give him money, let's hope he needs it to buy remedies

So, here's the revised PPP

I think the only thing that is stopping me playing is the trades to do. The other things under discussion don't need to be decided now.

TS 15 goals:
research: Nationalism for the Taj. I don't think anyone was against that while we get our trades sorted out to get Economics for the next turnset. Keep at 40%. (we could bring nat in in 8T, but it will burn through our gold)

Wonders: HighSophia in LaunchPad.

Trades: The discussion seemd to be not give Copac theo, otherwise he'll go and build the AP. I'm not sure how we know Wang will have Optics for the deal Bulbz suggested, he could have spent all our money by the time he has optics. I showed the chance, of course i can't be sure. But if we give money to HC we'll be short for Wang. Give him MC, let's keep Mono to add to paper and maybe some money.
How about:
Huaya Copac: Feudalism for Paper +185

Wang: Aesthetics Compas and Engineering +10 for civil services, philosophy and metal casting ? If Wang has optics, he would probably trade it for paper + some If we give theo to Wang, then I think HC will end up with it anyway if he has anything left to trade with wang cos he HC likes wang.

demands: I guess older techs, say < 400 :beakers: is OK to give away *if* we are not on +4 trading with them. otherwise people can sod off. Unless it's Joao with a stack on our borders. yeah, but try to squeeze some money and maybe a WM.
Watch Shaka, it can be worth improve our relations. We need his luxuries.

Cities:
LaunchPad: Keep always at least 3Sci + 1Eng at work - HS (7) xbow(1) para(3)
Athens: Para (3t) Para (9)
Bulbzville: Airport (2) Baracks(2) Para (6)
Pindus: Granary (2), Library (4), University (8), NE (assuming literature by then) <> NP (assuming bio) NE in Pindus will go right after the NP: otherwise it pollutes badly with GA points. The last thing we want. Forge after granary, please, then barracks > Paras. Do you think to win a quick war with only 3 cities buiding military?
Spata: Lighthouse(3) Courthouse(12). Is this a good location for the Moai Statues ? Or keep them for Atlantis ? We'll NEVER take it. Please look at the city S of Lisbona. That one is simply fantastic for the Moai.

Panama City: Granary(3), Courthouse(40)
NewYork: Lighthouse(4) Forge(12). I propose a workshop or watermill 1E at least until the city is developed. Preserve forests. (lower priority than Pindus)
Corinth: forge (37) I think we need a mine in the hills windmill, more windmills, only windmills not only they give gold, but until railroads they give the same hammers.

GPersons: If GS, settle. If GSpy, keep for a GA. If a GE, keep him at sleep: half the SoL.

Workers: We have 8, and could do with more. I want one in NY, and one in Corinth area to improve those. I want at least 2, Panama area to cut down that jungle. two to Pindus to start preserving it. I guess the other two can continue the irrigation chain planned for Athens on my last TS.
EDIT: I plan to reroute roads away from the Plains pindus' BFC to and hope the we get more forest growth. OK, but we'll build a worker after we'll take the island: that city needs 2 to quickly improve.
No more until you find room in some minor city queue

Airship: I'll recon Africa with it. But remember to bring in LP when you'll have the 2nd Para ready there: it's needed to clear the path for the jump.

Religion: No plans to spread anything yet. Depends on who builds the AP, and what shrines are built, and if we pop a GProf

Civics: to be decided before Taj built. No change yet.

Espionage: Do we drop Joao back to 1 now he's equaled up to the others ? No, that guy is planting spies like crazy. Let him to 3 and put Hammu to 2. 1 for the rest is OK

War: two paras built in Athens to jump to the island to capture it. Probably around T106. Airship to support.

So, you'll play tomorrow night? it's OK, we're recovering some days this way.

Also, after the HS, not much discussions on the strategy.
Be aware, you all. The game will become hectic from now on. Things will happen at lightspeed after turn 100.

Dunno if you manage to arrive to send the paras in the island or if it will be next TS. In case, do NOT promote them. They can do the first fight unpromoted (Para = 24, LB = 6), and be promoted to C1 after that. If they arrive to 5XP, give them Medic1. We need healers.
We'll need also a Xbow for the island.

If Joao has some money or some cheap tech, give him MC: i'd like to find some forge built
Good luck!

 

[Sweetacshon]

Pindus: Granary (2), Library (4), University (8), NE (assuming literature by then) <> NP (assuming bio) NE in Pindus will go right after the NP: otherwise it pollutes badly with GA points. The last thing we want. Forge after granary, please, then barracks > Paras. Do you think to win a quick war with only 3 cities buiding military?

I don't agree. Pindus will not aid the army production much, at least in the near future, as it has the 2 NW to do. So skip the barracks and the paras here, and concentrate on infra. I like your proposed path, with NP before NE.

Otherwise, looks good. re: trades - well, you know what we need, and where we are heading, so do whatever you think is the best. Ha anyone checked "worst enemy" recently?

 

[Mesix]

Stalin and Shaka are the worst enemy of Wang...but Stalin and Shaka do not have a worst enemy.

 

[Simon_c]

Feud for paper +185g. is good, but what if we wait some turn to give time to Hammu, then we give him paper?
Not sure about this, to you the choice. But maybe it's the way to go. Give him money, let's hope he needs it to buy remedies

What do you mean about giving Hammy money ?

Espionage: Do we drop Joao back to 1 now he's equaled up to the others ? No, that guy is planting spies like crazy. Let him to 3 and put Hammu to 2. 1 for the rest is OK

That gives 0EPs to the rest of the world, 7 to Joao, and 1 to Hammu.

I don't agree. Pindus will not aid the army production much, at least in the near future, as it has the 2 NW to do. So skip the barracks and the paras here, and concentrate on infra. I like your proposed path, with NP before NE.

I was about to say "Yeh, by the time Pindus has build a forge and barracks, it will be taking about 7-8 2 turns for a para. " but then I thought, we'll probably be close to our first GA (taj) by the time para1 is built, then it's output will go up loads.... And if we're not fussed about oxford until after the war with Joao and we have stone, then maybe forge is best. It will speed up production of the NE/NP anyway.

I may be able to play today, and I'm happy to make decisions on the above points. But I'll keep an eye on the forums in-case anyone has any more views.

If not playing during today, it will be tonight.

 

[BLubmuz]

What do you mean about giving Hammy money ?
Misunderstanding here!
The subject was HC and his request for Feud.
I mentioned Hammy in "give him time" by delaying the paper+Theo trade with HC (and avoid to spend money)

That gives 0EPs to the rest of the world, 7 to Joao, and 1 to Hammu.
It's OK for now

I was about to say "Yeh, by the time Pindus has build a forge and barracks, it will be taking about 7-8 2 turns for a para. " but then I thought, we'll probably be close to our first GA (taj) by the time para1 is built, then it's output will go up loads.... And if we're not fussed about oxford until after the war with Joao and we have stone, then maybe forge is best. It will speed up production of the NE/NP anyway. Not exactly: until we'll take his stone city. By then we should have enough paras in the field to afford to build OU in LP.

I may be able to play today, and I'm happy to make decisions on the above points. But I'll keep an eye on the forums in-case anyone has any more views.

If not playing during today, it will be tonight.

Forges are always good.

@Sweeta
about your reinstall: have you tried if Vanilla is OK? if so, you'll need "only" to reinstall BtS.

 

[Simon_c]

Playing tonight. Around 5 hours from now.