I agree. An academy to go with all of our free scientists is a good use of a GS.
SGOTM 09 - Fifth Element
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
I agree. An academy to go with all of our free scientists is a good use of a GS.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
Astronomy first is out of question. Trading resources is too much impotant. Better income from Trade Routes is noticeable.
If we wanna win the Economics race, Bio must go after it. I can agree on Democracy after Bio. Anyway, i'll try a test with Bio first, no Astro, to see if we can still win the Economics Race.
greatbeyond
King
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2002
- Messages
- 989
I will post a plan for everyone to review Friday night, revise Saturday night, and hopefully play and post Sunday night.
Off I go to consolidate the flurry of ideas and activity of the last day.
Off I go to consolidate the flurry of ideas and activity of the last day.
greatbeyond
King
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2002
- Messages
- 989
In reviewing the posts it seems there are only a couple areas of contention
Research:
Chem then Biology
OR
Nationalism then Astro
Builds:
We still need Universities. Let's decide where and when we're going to build them and get Oxford built for the science boost.
Pindus seems to be the only city there is any disagreement on. I favor emphasizing infrastructure over military.
My initial assessment on this is that Biology has so much more to offer in the way of one extra food per farm and we don't need to daisy chain farms to spread irrigation. Our slow growth is delaying increased production and science.
The below section lifted from a previous post that I think is OK.
1) Paras for kassite:
More to follow later....
Research:
Chem then Biology
OR
Nationalism then Astro
Builds:
We still need Universities. Let's decide where and when we're going to build them and get Oxford built for the science boost.
Pindus seems to be the only city there is any disagreement on. I favor emphasizing infrastructure over military.
My initial assessment on this is that Biology has so much more to offer in the way of one extra food per farm and we don't need to daisy chain farms to spread irrigation. Our slow growth is delaying increased production and science.
The below section lifted from a previous post that I think is OK.
1) Paras for kassite:
Spoiler :
More to follow later....
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
A detailed report i took while testing will follow.
Anyway, Mesix, in the Chem>Bio after Nationalism variant, when i was researching Economics, HC has Edu. He has also Constitution. Probably i won for 1 turn.
I'll post the report later.
Anyway, Mesix, in the Chem>Bio after Nationalism variant, when i was researching Economics, HC has Edu. He has also Constitution. Probably i won for 1 turn.
I'll post the report later.
In light of your suggestion (and the time we wasted getting Theocracy and Nationalism ahead of Biology), may I recommend this tech path:
Economics > Corporation > Chemistry > Biology
We already have Medicine, so if we go for Economics > Corporation we can use the free GM from Economics to found Sid Sushi. This will provide a lot of free food and then Biology will provide more. The extra specialists from Biology will be a big boom to our economy/research. This will also give us more time to build the necessary infrastructure (Universities, Oxford, Forest Preserve Improvements, etc.) to get the maximum use out of the National Park.
The down side is that putting off Biology for so long has already cost us some GS that could have popped out of the NP/NE combination. The longer we put off creation of the city, the less useful this combination will be.
After we found Sid Sushi, we need to think about taking Atlantis. With paratroopers and galloens/frigates we should be able to take out the Barbarian longbowmen and galleys. To get maximum benefit from Sid Sushi we need to stop the barbarians from razing our fishing resources.
Economics > Corporation > Chemistry > Biology
We already have Medicine, so if we go for Economics > Corporation we can use the free GM from Economics to found Sid Sushi. This will provide a lot of free food and then Biology will provide more. The extra specialists from Biology will be a big boom to our economy/research. This will also give us more time to build the necessary infrastructure (Universities, Oxford, Forest Preserve Improvements, etc.) to get the maximum use out of the National Park.
The down side is that putting off Biology for so long has already cost us some GS that could have popped out of the NP/NE combination. The longer we put off creation of the city, the less useful this combination will be.
After we found Sid Sushi, we need to think about taking Atlantis. With paratroopers and galloens/frigates we should be able to take out the Barbarian longbowmen and galleys. To get maximum benefit from Sid Sushi we need to stop the barbarians from razing our fishing resources.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
First, Theo and nationalism are not a waste.
Just compare the rate of improvements with and without HS. Second, a GAge is not a thing to diminish.
Anyway, this is the detailed report of my attempt. To you the conclusions.
Last, do not even think to found Sushi. The beakers from the specialists can not compensate the huge costs for planting and maintaining a Corporation under Environmentalism.
Another thing is Mining inc, necessary to speed the SS parts.
Anyway, those compared attempts are proving what i'm sustaining by weeks: the NP is a good thing, but not game breaking.
Just compare the rate of improvements with and without HS. Second, a GAge is not a thing to diminish.
Anyway, this is the detailed report of my attempt. To you the conclusions.
Spoiler :
*3Another thing is Mining inc, necessary to speed the SS parts.
Anyway, those compared attempts are proving what i'm sustaining by weeks: the NP is a good thing, but not game breaking.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
Greatbeyond, let me offer some suggestion for your TS.
We'll discuss the research path last, after you all will read and evaluate my report.
I must add that i'm more in favor of this than of my previous proposal.
More risk, more reward, right?
In case we can go (just to confuse the AI) Chem - Astro - Bio (trade for Guids + Bank) - Econ - Const - Corp - PP - Demo - Elec.
Let me try this variant, too. With borbers closed with Joao
For now, only some MM suggestion.
I also think we all agree on the trade for Optics.
First, you'll stop all the workers, but the ones clearing jungle S of Panama. One of them will finish the job in this same turn, you'll send the freed one to the Forest Panama shares with Sparta. Road. Then you'll send the other one in the forest N of Sparta. Road. This one will join the other building a FP, raising the happy cap of both cities. Then a FP in the other forest. edit: NO, workshop where you cleared the jungle, then windmill on the forested hill, watermill in the flood plain. Water mill on the Flood Plain, Windmills on the hills. No cottages this game. Strange indeed.
Southern cities: fire all the specialists, but a merchant in Panama. Put Sparta in max hammers, stagnating, switch the build to a caravel. Put Panama in max hammers (?) it will grow after the FP is built. Stole the GLFor tile from Sparta, Switch to forge.
Back to the other workers: you'll send them in forest tiles but the one already free, on the hill near Pindus. Next turn they will road those tiles. Then they will complete the winery, the FP along the river near NYC and a windmill near Pindus.
Later, you'll send one to build a farm NW of Blubz (road first) so we can bring water to the wheat. And later to the rice.
Remember the roads are of great strategic importance. We have a war to fight and we need them to move troops at the best. Later we'll need to fully road the south to be connected to Joao.
Pindus and Athens are fine as is.
NYC must work more hammers, stole the winery from Pindus, work only the unimproved fish as sea tile.
Sparta is not growing: fire the Eng, work some forest
LP: Fire 2 sci, work max hammers and grow in 2. Then (s.15) you'll run 4 sci + 1 eng., growing 1 food/turn. After this, Athens can temporarily steal the FPs.
After the HS, an Xbow for Kassite, then a para, then a Whaling boat: it will arrive right when Kassite will expand 2nd borders.
Kassite: thanks for your appreciation on my small war plan. I just add this: when the 2nd Para will arrive, send the worker to him. He can road, then go to road the furs the turn you'll take the city.
We'll discuss the research path last, after you all will read and evaluate my report.
I must add that i'm more in favor of this than of my previous proposal.
More risk, more reward, right?
In case we can go (just to confuse the AI) Chem - Astro - Bio (trade for Guids + Bank) - Econ - Const - Corp - PP - Demo - Elec.
Let me try this variant, too. With borbers closed with Joao
For now, only some MM suggestion.
I also think we all agree on the trade for Optics.
First, you'll stop all the workers, but the ones clearing jungle S of Panama. One of them will finish the job in this same turn, you'll send the freed one to the Forest Panama shares with Sparta. Road. Then you'll send the other one in the forest N of Sparta. Road. This one will join the other building a FP, raising the happy cap of both cities. Then a FP in the other forest. edit: NO, workshop where you cleared the jungle, then windmill on the forested hill, watermill in the flood plain. Water mill on the Flood Plain, Windmills on the hills. No cottages this game. Strange indeed.
Southern cities: fire all the specialists, but a merchant in Panama. Put Sparta in max hammers, stagnating, switch the build to a caravel. Put Panama in max hammers (?) it will grow after the FP is built. Stole the GLFor tile from Sparta, Switch to forge.
Back to the other workers: you'll send them in forest tiles but the one already free, on the hill near Pindus. Next turn they will road those tiles. Then they will complete the winery, the FP along the river near NYC and a windmill near Pindus.
Later, you'll send one to build a farm NW of Blubz (road first) so we can bring water to the wheat. And later to the rice.
Remember the roads are of great strategic importance. We have a war to fight and we need them to move troops at the best. Later we'll need to fully road the south to be connected to Joao.
Pindus and Athens are fine as is.
NYC must work more hammers, stole the winery from Pindus, work only the unimproved fish as sea tile.
Sparta is not growing: fire the Eng, work some forest
LP: Fire 2 sci, work max hammers and grow in 2. Then (s.15) you'll run 4 sci + 1 eng., growing 1 food/turn. After this, Athens can temporarily steal the FPs.
After the HS, an Xbow for Kassite, then a para, then a Whaling boat: it will arrive right when Kassite will expand 2nd borders.
Kassite: thanks for your appreciation on my small war plan. I just add this: when the 2nd Para will arrive, send the worker to him. He can road, then go to road the furs the turn you'll take the city.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
I'm testing the variant, and i manage to trade for guilds. Not much more for now, i'm still in the early phase.
Mesix, we'll *never* take that stupid city.
First, it gives no benefits in any term, second it needs some 17-18 turns to go out of revolt. Then we'll have the "motherland" thing until the end game. Yes, barbs with motherland. I carefully reproduced the situation in my tests, as you know.
Play more tests instead of spam the thread with absurdities.
To stop the galleys, a frigate is more than enough. Maybe even a caravel. I'm trying this in the present test. BTW, with a switch to caravel in Sparta, i managed to sunk the barb galley, and the caravel is now C1. It's on his way to cover the future nets.
Mesix, we'll *never* take that stupid city.
First, it gives no benefits in any term, second it needs some 17-18 turns to go out of revolt. Then we'll have the "motherland" thing until the end game. Yes, barbs with motherland. I carefully reproduced the situation in my tests, as you know.
Play more tests instead of spam the thread with absurdities.
To stop the galleys, a frigate is more than enough. Maybe even a caravel. I'm trying this in the present test. BTW, with a switch to caravel in Sparta, i managed to sunk the barb galley, and the caravel is now C1. It's on his way to cover the future nets.
No Sushi, never.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
Report on the test variant Chem - Astro - closing borders with Joao.
In this variant, HC went straight to Economics, successfully.
We must decide:
- if we want win the race or
- if we want try to save turns of research trading for Guilds and banking with Wang
I'm in favor of the second, a GM is not that much.
Closing borders with Joao brought 2 things:
1) loss of income from the TRs, suffering research and cash
2) Joao DoWed us.
The 2nd can be a good thing, but surely not the first. And can be good if we manage to keep Panama with the few troops we can send there.
One thing is sure for Pindus: once completed the forge it will start a library, then barracks to build Xbows (1 every 2 turns) to send to Blubz to be airlifted in newly conquered cities.
In this variant, HC went straight to Economics, successfully.
We must decide:
- if we want win the race or
- if we want try to save turns of research trading for Guilds and banking with Wang
I'm in favor of the second, a GM is not that much.
Closing borders with Joao brought 2 things:
1) loss of income from the TRs, suffering research and cash
2) Joao DoWed us.
The 2nd can be a good thing, but surely not the first. And can be good if we manage to keep Panama with the few troops we can send there.
One thing is sure for Pindus: once completed the forge it will start a library, then barracks to build Xbows (1 every 2 turns) to send to Blubz to be airlifted in newly conquered cities.
Pindus should build Library, University, National Epic, National Park, Observatory, and Laboratory as our technology allows. If any of these buildings are available, they should take precedence. Other cities can build Barracks and troops.
New York looks like a good candidate for garrison troop production. It will finish the forge in 8 turns. Pindus will finish the Forge and Library in six.
New York looks like a good candidate for garrison troop production. It will finish the forge in 8 turns. Pindus will finish the Forge and Library in six.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
Just a problem: NY has to build the Taj. Pindus can have Uni in time before the NP and still build some badly needed Xbows. BTW, the research is now (or in few turns) better in NY than in Pindus. NY can build the forge in 6, the library in 2, then the Taj, possibly with switch to Uni.
Don't worry by the right time we'll have 6 Unis, maybe more and Pindus will be ready for his NP. During a war is a good habit training troops for the front
or do you think to conquer half the world with the units produced by 3 cities?
Sparta will help too with troops, after his HE. But we need time for that.
What we lack is time to build decent troops to garrison our new cities.
Edit:
I performed 4 attempts until now.
Only in the first i managed to win the Economics race, and with great luck.
Otherwise, HC goes straight there.
Also, in 3 attempts out of 4 2 more GEs popped in a row, in 4th, 2 GS. I swear i changed nothing in LP.
In all the 4 attempts, Joao declared on Hammu. Well, to be accurate, not in the one i close borders, but that was his intention.
A good idea, to be verified: Braga is barbarian. Once we have enough troops to finish Hammu (and a GG Para medic3+morale is a great boost), we can send 2 paras, followed by a third to take Braga from Barbs. This will save us a lot of turns later, swince Joao has now the forces to take it back.
Last thing: it's pointless to have all the paras in position: we don't need 20 of them to take a city.
Better, we can start the war with a dozen or so (in position, i mean). Joao will still have troops inside our borders, but they will be teleported right inside his. With a stack ready on the border, we can massacre them, then siege the first city.
Don't worry by the right time we'll have 6 Unis, maybe more and Pindus will be ready for his NP. During a war is a good habit training troops for the front
or do you think to conquer half the world with the units produced by 3 cities?Sparta will help too with troops, after his HE. But we need time for that.
What we lack is time to build decent troops to garrison our new cities.
Edit:
I performed 4 attempts until now.
Only in the first i managed to win the Economics race, and with great luck.
Otherwise, HC goes straight there.
Also, in 3 attempts out of 4 2 more GEs popped in a row, in 4th, 2 GS. I swear i changed nothing in LP.
In all the 4 attempts, Joao declared on Hammu. Well, to be accurate, not in the one i close borders, but that was his intention.
A good idea, to be verified: Braga is barbarian. Once we have enough troops to finish Hammu (and a GG Para medic3+morale is a great boost), we can send 2 paras, followed by a third to take Braga from Barbs. This will save us a lot of turns later, swince Joao has now the forces to take it back.
Last thing: it's pointless to have all the paras in position: we don't need 20 of them to take a city.
Better, we can start the war with a dozen or so (in position, i mean). Joao will still have troops inside our borders, but they will be teleported right inside his. With a stack ready on the border, we can massacre them, then siege the first city.
I ran a test game.
In my test I was able to take Hammy by starting a war with 6 paratroopers (eventually 12 or so). They cut through medieval troops like butter.
I was not able to get Economics. HC beelined and nobody would trade Guilds or Banking to me. We should tech Guilds > Banking > Economics to ensure that we win the race. Guilds and Banking will help us to recover our economy.
I popped a GA from Athens in my test. I built the Taj in LP in 8 turns, then used a GS and a GS+GA to get three consecutive GA. This helped to speed up troop production, research, and recover the economy.
I never DOW Joao, but I am convinced that we should. He never DOW me, but he did not become a strong ally either. We should take both American continents. To make this work we need to build Varsailles in South America and the Forbidden Palace in Babylon.
In my test I was able to take Hammy by starting a war with 6 paratroopers (eventually 12 or so). They cut through medieval troops like butter.
I was not able to get Economics. HC beelined and nobody would trade Guilds or Banking to me. We should tech Guilds > Banking > Economics to ensure that we win the race. Guilds and Banking will help us to recover our economy.
I popped a GA from Athens in my test. I built the Taj in LP in 8 turns, then used a GS and a GS+GA to get three consecutive GA. This helped to speed up troop production, research, and recover the economy.
I never DOW Joao, but I am convinced that we should. He never DOW me, but he did not become a strong ally either. We should take both American continents. To make this work we need to build Varsailles in South America and the Forbidden Palace in Babylon.
As much as I have harped on this not being a war monger game, I think we should take some troops overseas and make one of the AI players our vassal. In my test, Shaka vassalized Stalin and then DOW me. He was not able to make much headway into the Americas, but he did destroy my guard boats, and generally harrass my coastal cities enough to distract me from the goal.
My idea is to take the barbarian city in Europe and use it as a staging ground. Wang and Stalin are worst enemies and it should not be difficult to get Wang to DOW Stalin. We can then get a shared war with Wang and work towards capitulating Stalin.
Once we get a foothold in Europe, we should form a Colony. Then we will have a vassal in Europe and eliminate the maintenance costs of having overseas cities. When we force Stalin to capitulate, we will have two vassals. That should be enough to keep Shaka busy if he gets any crazy ideas.
My idea is to take the barbarian city in Europe and use it as a staging ground. Wang and Stalin are worst enemies and it should not be difficult to get Wang to DOW Stalin. We can then get a shared war with Wang and work towards capitulating Stalin.
Once we get a foothold in Europe, we should form a Colony. Then we will have a vassal in Europe and eliminate the maintenance costs of having overseas cities. When we force Stalin to capitulate, we will have two vassals. That should be enough to keep Shaka busy if he gets any crazy ideas.
A thought on corporations. It is true that they have high maintenance under Environmentalism. I found that they became useful in a limited capacity in the late game. By limited, I mean that I only spread them to a few select cities...the cities that were my production powerhouses for building SS components. By the time I got to this point (about turn 180), the additionl maintenance didn't hurt me much since I had about 2,000 
stockpiled.
stockpiled.
I ran another test.
In this game I researched Guilds > Banking > Economics and got the free GM. THis also helped me to get a strong economy.
I don't know if this is the fastest way to victory, but it sure is the most fun. I took the barbarian city in Greenland and then built the fort on the eastmost tile. I then jumped paratroopers into Europe and took the two barbarian cities there. Once they were mine I spung off a colong and each city of his had two riflemen defending. Once I had about eight Paratroopers in Europe, I DOW Stalin and bribed Wang to join in the war. Every time I took a Russian city, I was given the option to liberate it to my colony/vassal. This is what I did to build a big empire for my vassal. I think the European vassal is a good move, because it gives us a super happy civ to trade with later in the game.
I was also fingting a second war against Hammy. I waited a few more turns in this game and had 10+ paratroopers ready to roll. Hammy went down a lot fastrer with the extra guns. As a bonus, waiting longer allowed Hammy to build the shrine in the Jewish holy city.
After Hammy was gone, I redeployed my paratroopers to the south and made a blitz for Lisbon taking four cities on the way. Once Joao's capital fell, it was a mop up action.
After getting Economics, my tech path was Chemistry > Biology > Devine Right > Astronomy.
Devine Right should be researched to make Versailles available when Babylon comes out of revolt. Babylon has plenty of
and is a great location for Versailles. Later on the Forbidden Palace can be built in one of Joao's cities.
In this game I researched Guilds > Banking > Economics and got the free GM. THis also helped me to get a strong economy.
I don't know if this is the fastest way to victory, but it sure is the most fun. I took the barbarian city in Greenland and then built the fort on the eastmost tile. I then jumped paratroopers into Europe and took the two barbarian cities there. Once they were mine I spung off a colong and each city of his had two riflemen defending. Once I had about eight Paratroopers in Europe, I DOW Stalin and bribed Wang to join in the war. Every time I took a Russian city, I was given the option to liberate it to my colony/vassal. This is what I did to build a big empire for my vassal. I think the European vassal is a good move, because it gives us a super happy civ to trade with later in the game.
I was also fingting a second war against Hammy. I waited a few more turns in this game and had 10+ paratroopers ready to roll. Hammy went down a lot fastrer with the extra guns. As a bonus, waiting longer allowed Hammy to build the shrine in the Jewish holy city.
After Hammy was gone, I redeployed my paratroopers to the south and made a blitz for Lisbon taking four cities on the way. Once Joao's capital fell, it was a mop up action.
After getting Economics, my tech path was Chemistry > Biology > Devine Right > Astronomy.
Devine Right should be researched to make Versailles available when Babylon comes out of revolt. Babylon has plenty of
and is a great location for Versailles. Later on the Forbidden Palace can be built in one of Joao's cities.Similar threads
- Sticky
