SGOTM 09 - Fifth Element

BLubmuz · May 27, 2009

Mesix said:
We don't need Chemistry before Guilds. But you never know... if maybe guilds arrives on the table. We can finish Chem, then Guilds if we don't see it. At the present Guilds is not researched ny anyone All it gets us is extra from workshops (we don't have many) and new boats (which we don't plan to build). Not soon, but not too late. We need the 2 frigates to protect our nets in Atlantic and to escort the galleon to the south We can wait to finish Chem on the way to Bio. We may (on your TS Blubz) want to get Devine Right before Chemistry > Bio so that we can put down Versailles in Babylon.

LP can build one more paratrooper before the Observatory. We need the extra from though.
Sparta needs an Odeon to grow past current happy cap. It only takes 2 turns...and I hae it after the Library.

I'll try to MM New York to improve build time.

I will add an extra WB in Cornith.

Also an Harbor will contribute to :science:

: it's the cheapest building and LP can build it in 1-2 turn(s)
No, DR is too expensive in terms of turns for now. I'll go the Economics path, Bio, Democracy path then DR. Unless i'll see we can found Islam and researching it in 1-2 turns under the GAge. In this case i'll surely start Versailles in Babylon, hoping to capture it with a Forge. Versailles is expensive.
We can build the FP in Sparta during the war, or maybe better in the northernmost Portuguese city if it has enough :hammers:

Better start discussing this now: i'd like to revolt to FR in the first turn of our GAge.
All our projects about OR and missionaries can be for next GAge. Right?

Please remember that OR is an expensive civic and we can't afford it now.
Also, we can't distract our production from structures and military.
To add benefits, we'll can also build some buddist missionary in former Portugal if/when we'll decide to adopt OR in next GAge. Obviuosly to revolt back to FR the last turn of the GAge.

Sweetacshon · May 27, 2009

DR is gone, baby, gone. And actually we can trade for it. I guess I didn't mention this in my report, but it happened 1-2 turns ago.

PPP looks OK. I think Corinth should go 2x wb > lib > uni >court tho. :deadhorse:

Probably slide a frigate in after lib in Sparta, then either Vers or the FP. Perhaps 1 more para in LP pre-obs, and perhaps stick a xbow in after the uni in Pindus (considering we're delaying bio). Also, rename Kass > Greenland, so we know what's going on.

And the worker should complete the farm on the floodplain, as the city still has quite a bit of growing to do. As I said, it can be changed later to a mill.

Otherwise, PPP gets the tick from me.

Mining Inc and Sushi... a great combination, of course. is this the plan?

Mesix · May 28, 2009

We will found both corps, but not until our economy recovers. The HQ for both will be our Wall St. city (hopefully with a shrine) to mitigate corp maint. We will only spread them to the 5-6 cities that will be used to build SS components.

unclethrill · May 28, 2009

Looks good to me too.

BLubmuz · May 28, 2009

Sweetacshon said:
DR is gone, baby, gone. And actually we can trade for it. I guess I didn't mention this in my report, but it happened 1-2 turns ago.
You did it, i forget. But Hammu did not founded Islam IIRC. And it's not on the table, if not from Hammu. And we surely will not sue for peace for that tech.
PPP looks OK. I think Corinth should go 2x wb > lib > uni >court tho. Probably slide a frigate in after lib in Sparta, then either Vers or the FP. Perhaps 1 more para in LP pre-obs, and perhaps stick a xbow in after the uni in Pindus (considering we're delaying bio). Also, rename Kass > Greenland, so we know what's going on.

And the worker should complete the farm on the floodplain, as the city still has quite a bit of growing to do. As I said, it can be changed later to a mill.
The farm can go later in the grassland S. We need the road on the hill now.
Sparta is on the happy cap, better delay the growth.

Otherwise, PPP gets the tick from me.

Mining Inc and Sushi... a great combination, of course. is this the plan?

Mesix said:
We will found both corps, but not until our economy recovers. The HQ for both will be our Wall St. city (hopefully with a shrine) to mitigate corp maint. We will only spread them to the 5-6 cities that will be used to build SS components.

As i said, i can't see the benefits from Sushi. If we use the GM stacked with the GSpy for our last GAge and use the GPro to build the Jewish Shrine is probably better. IF we pop a GPro, of course.

About Mining Inc: we'll spread it to our core cities, including Kassite/Greenland. And to Nippur, Babylon, Lisbona and the city south of it.

Maybe you have missed my proposal for a Palace move in Blubz.
This will spare us to research an useless tech and to build an expensive WW in Babylon. Not sure on this, but if you think it's worth i can run some tests after my TS.
LP will still be our Science city, with OU and so on.

Mesix · May 28, 2009

If we move the palace to Blubz, we will lose the Buro civic benefits in LP coupled with Oxford. Definately not worth it. LP was named such because we have been planning for that to be the Launch Pad from the beginning. It has both :hammers:

and

making it in ideal location. It's not an accident that the map was designed this way.

Once we have the Forbidden Palace in one of the Portugese cities and Versailles in Babylon (if we build Versailles before one of the AI do), we will have reduced maintenance for distance throughout the Americas.

BLubmuz · May 28, 2009

Mesix said:
If we move the palace to Blubz, we will lose the Buro civic benefits in LP coupled with Oxford. Definately not worth it. LP was named such because we have been planning for that to be the Launch Pad from the beginning. It has both and making it in ideal location. It's not an accident that the map was designed this way.

Once we have the Forbidden Palace in one of the Portugese cities and Versailles in Babylon (if we build Versailles before one of the AI do), we will have reduced maintenance for distance throughout the Americas.

It's just an option i would show.
I doubt it was good. That's what i did in my tests (versailles in Babylon).

Mesix · May 28, 2009

Turnset played...here's the save.

Here's the autolog:

Spoiler :

The TS went pretty much as planned.

in New York delayed the Taj MIhal. +1

from war and +1

from Emancipation.

I was able to take 3 cities from Hammy.

I snuck an explorer into the queue of Pindus to attach a GG for a healer. He is with our troops in Babylonian lands now.

Spoiler :

BLubmuz · May 28, 2009

Mesix, i just downloaded the save.

Why do you wasted hammers on a useless and not planned explorer when we could have tyhe GG attched to a Para?

I spent a lot of recommendations on this: fight a cat with the medic 1 para with 5 XP, gain the 6th, promote him to medic3+morale.

Why we spent time in planning and posting if the active player do what he wants?
An explorer is vulnerable to any unit, he will always need another unit with him. He can't jump, just move.

Few minutes and i'll post my thoughts.

BLubmuz · May 28, 2009

2 bad things out of your control: a para died despite good chances and a GA born in Athens.

That explorer... i can't digest it. :mad:

That fort in BFC ... worker turns wasted. First, to jump in Europe a fort can be built 1N of where you did. Greeland will expand its borders quickly after an Odeon and a Library+Uni.

Noticed you switched Chem. Nothing lost on that, just i recommended to finish it, since the Economics race was already won.

My PPP
Well, since the war is almost ended, i'll extend my TS back to 7 turns.

Economics can be due in 1 turn.
I guess we'll use the GM for Sushi. Pity the only Shrine we have is in Lisbona, which surely doesn't need to grow.

This is the first things i see for my PPP:
Kill the injured Xbow near Akkad, let the mace to Joao's pikes.
Bring the 4 lightly injured paras to begin with Borsippa, heal the rest, at least partially.
Finish the strategic road network south, including a road in portuguese land (not for much :evil:

)

Finish Chem.
If you think it's worth, start DR. It can be researched probably in 2 turns in GAge.
Start Bio, unless i pop a GE. If so, we can go for Democracy.
What about this? We already have 14 cities, 16 in 3-4 turns. Are 16 free spacialists better than 9?
Then, after an odeon in Babylon start Versailles there. I think that the diversion will pay for itself once Versailles will be completed. Luck we captured Babylon with the forge.

We now have 11 Paras. Have you seen Joao's stacks? we need no less than 20-25 paras to win the war in a reasonable time.
3 in the galleon to Evora + 4th ready to be airlifted once we'll take it.
4 to keep (2 are enough to take it from barbs) Braga
2 more x bows for the former babylonian cities. One can be moved from Athens and be airlifted from LP or Blubz in Dur.
12 - at least - for the first attack. I counted some 14 Portuguese units in our territory. No match for our paras, but they don't have blitz.
This sum 20. Maybe 3 more are enough, we'll see.
In any case we need 9 to 12 more. After those 2 Xbows, stop with them.
The portuguese cities can not be defended by less than a Para. And our GG needs a full health para to be protected. Mesix, consider yourself badly insulted. Deity EQM? bah if you play in this way, you have not yet the basics of this game.

01- LP will finish the harbor, then 2 paras, then a grocer or a bank or a lab, then another para
02- Athens will finish the present one, then another, then structures.
03- Blubz will finish the para, xbow, para
04- Sparta will switch immediately to barracks/HE, 2 frigates, then it will complete the harbor, then a couple paras, then structures.
05- NY will switch to odeon (2 t) then will finish the Taj. Unless you think is better delay it further. Structures there after the Taj. Suggestions welcome. Maybe market uni or harbor uni?
06- Pindus can switch to xbow, finish the obs, para
07- Panama (after the forge in 1t): odeon, library, harbor, uni.
08- Vancouver (it seems more Seattle or Frisco, but OK) Uni after library: we need 2 more for the OU.
09- Greenland (former Kassite) forge in 3, then granary, library, odeon, uni
10- Nippur (CH in 4) library, uni.
11- Opis needs to grow, OK forge, but i'll work a farm
12- Babylon see above (finish revolt in 2)
13- Akkad ok forge (LH captured), but in revolt for 5 turns
14- Dur OK CH (forge captured), revolt for 7

unclethrill · May 28, 2009

BLubmuz said:
2 bad things out of your control: a para died despite good chances and a GA born in Athens.

That explorer... i can't digest it.
That fort in BFC ... worker turns wasted. First, to jump in Europe a fort can be built 1N of where you did. Greeland will expand its borders quickly after an Odeon and a Library+Uni.

Economics can be due in 1 turn.
I guess we'll use the GM for Sushi. Pity the only Shrine we have is in Lisbona, which surely doesn't need to grow.

Noticed you switched Chem. Nothing lost on that, just i recommended to finish it, since the Economics race was already won.

Well, since the war is almost ended, i'll extend my TS back to 7 turns.

This is the first things i see for my PPP:
Kill the injured Xbow near Akkad, let the mace to Joao's pikes.
Bring the 2 lightly injured paras to begin with Borsippa, heal the rest, at least partially.
Finish the strategic road network south, including a road in portuguese land (not for much )

Finish Chem.
If you think it's worth, start DR, it can be researched probably in 2 turns in GAge.
Then, after an odeon in Babylon start Versailles there.

We now have 11 Paras. Have you seen Joao's stacks? we need no less than 20-25 paras to win the war in a reasonable time.
3 in the galleon to Evora + 4th ready to be airlifted once we'll take it.
4 to keep (2 are enough to take it from barbs) Braga
2 more x bows for the former babylonian cities. One can be moved from Athens and be airlifted from LP or Blubz in Dur.
12 - at least - for the first attack. I counted some 12 Portuguese units in our territory. No match for our paras, but they don't have blitz.
This sum 20. Maybe 3 more are enough, we'll see.
In any case we need 9 to 12 more. After those 2 Xbows, stop with them.
The portuguese cities can not be defended by less than a Para.

Sparta will switch immediately to barracks/HE, 2 frigates, then it will complete the harbor, then a couple paras, then structures.

LP will finish the harbor, then 2 paras, then a grocer or a bank or a lab.

NY will switch to odeon (2 t) then will finish the Taj. Unless you think is better delay it further.

Why build HE is Sparta if it is only gonna build 2 frigates, 2 Paras and then infrastructure?

BLubmuz · May 28, 2009

unclethrill said:
Why build HE is Sparta if it is only gonna build 2 frigates, 2 Paras and then infrastructure?

hm... you quoted my post while i was editing it.

But yes, maybe we can build some more para there.
But my reasons for the HE are not the Portuguese war. Or not mainly.
To avoid surprises once Shaka will have Astro we need a strong navy. A drydock there, then destroyers and battleships. With structures before then.

A drydock also in Panama and the picture will be complete. Come Shaka, come.

Mesix · May 28, 2009

BLubmuz said:
Mesix, i just downloaded the save.

Why do you wasted hammers on a useless and not planned explorer when we could have tyhe GG attched to a Para?

I spent a lot of recommendations on this: fight a cat with the medic 1 para with 5 XP, gain the 6th, promote him to medic3+morale.

Why we spent time in planning and posting if the active player do what he wants?
An explorer is vulnerable to any unit, he will always need another unit with him. He can't jump, just move.

Few minutes and i'll post my thoughts.

Attaching the GG to a Para...that is the dumbest idea out of you yet. One of the first things that you learn when playing at levels higher than Prince is to attach your GG medic to a scout/explorer. It is cheaper to build, quicker to move, and doesn't die unless you make a mistake. As long as he is in a stack of units (which you want him to be...he is a medic after all), he will never be picked to defend the stack. You are right...he can't jump. He can be airlifted into a newly conquered city though. That is how I got him to Babylon so fast and how our troops were ready to take another city so fast. After the Babylonian war, we can put the Medic/Explorer in Blubzville and wait for the first major city to fall in S America and then airlift him to treat the wounded.

Maybe you need to pick up a copy of Winning Civ IV for Dumbies. Wasting Time is writing it. I think you can get an advanced copy if you ask him nicely.

Sweetacshon · May 28, 2009

The GG on an explorer is a good move in a normal game, but in this case where our units are 4x strength, I would've preferred it on a para. It gives an extra fighter, and can move 6 from a jump instead of 2.

Vancouver lib > uni
NY odeon > taj > uni
LP Oxford asap
:deadhorse:

I can't believe how long we've had education!! Oxford will add about 80 bpt immediately (well, 7 turns) which is about 1/4 of our current capacity. I guess you're all tired of hearing me say this by now. Plan looks ok, otherwise.

I favour chem > bio. DR we can still probably take after that. Surely it is a low priority for AI after Islam is gone. Just keep an eye on if someone researches it.

A GArtist :gripe:

Well that's one we don't mind burning on a GA. Or... what does he bulb after drama/music??

Mesix · May 29, 2009

We can get 3 GA by using Taj Mihal, GSpy, and GSpy + GArtist.

The GM from Economics should be able to found Sid Sushi to spread to our major cities.

Sweetacshon · May 29, 2009

Absolutely - the only benefit of a GArt is that we don't feel the burn of using a GS or GM instead.

Mesix · May 29, 2009

Our ability to get a GP for a shrine is almost zero now.

Sweetacshon · May 29, 2009

I think that's true. Is there any way to manufacture one, or is it too much effort?

Mesix · May 29, 2009

I suppose it could be possible if we run 3-4 priests in a city that has GP points from one or more wonders. It would be difficlut to keep up with the 9 scientists that Pindus will have in a few turns though...especially once the NE is built there.

Sweetacshon · May 29, 2009

Just our crappy luck with GMen this game, I guess. I mean 2 GSpies and a GArt?! What's the deal? :suicide:

SGOTM 09 - Fifth Element

HoF Quattromaster

In the foetal position

The Allfather

Why am I up right now?

HoF Quattromaster

The Allfather

HoF Quattromaster

The Allfather

HoF Quattromaster

HoF Quattromaster

Why am I up right now?

HoF Quattromaster

The Allfather

In the foetal position

The Allfather

In the foetal position

The Allfather

In the foetal position

The Allfather

In the foetal position

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