SGOTM 09 - Fifth Element

[BLubmuz]

Attaching the GG to a Para...that is the dumbest idea out of you yet. One of the first things that you learn when playing at levels higher than Prince is to attach your GG medic to a scout/explorer. It is cheaper to build, quicker to move, and doesn't die unless you make a mistake. As long as he is in a stack of units (which you want him to be...he is a medic after all), he will never be picked to defend the stack. You are right...he can't jump. He can be airlifted into a newly conquered city though. That is how I got him to Babylon so fast and how our troops were ready to take another city so fast. After the Babylonian war, we can put the Medic/Explorer in Blubzville and wait for the first major city to fall in S America and then airlift him to treat the wounded.

Maybe you need to pick up a copy of Winning Civ IV for Dumbies. Wasting Time is writing it. I think you can get an advanced copy if you ask him nicely.

Mesix, since you do not demonstrate any respect for your team members and particularly for your captain doing not planned and not recoverable decisions in your TS.
Since you think you're too better than the most of us.
I think is better you let this team.
Surely i don't put again you in the roster.

 

[BLubmuz]

The GG on an explorer is a good move in a normal game, but in this case where our units are 4x strength, I would've preferred it on a para. It gives an extra fighter, and can move 6 from a jump instead of 2.

And a great fighter. Capable to take units in enemy territory surrounding our new conquered city and retire in it. I carefully planned this. Lost, forever.

Vancouver lib > uni what i said
NY odeon > taj > uni possible, but we're still close to the happy cap. I'll see if possible, otherwise a market before it
LP Oxford asap I'd like it too, but it takes too long without stone maybe after my TS
I can't believe how long we've had education!! Oxford will add about 80 bpt immediately (well, 7 turns) which is about 1/4 of our current capacity. I guess you're all tired of hearing me say this by now. Plan looks ok, otherwise. That's the point, 7 turns. More than a WW.
BTW, i'm thinking if building Pyramids was a good decision. It costed us in terms of expansion, since we stuck with 3 cities for ages. Maybe arrive to 6 cities earlier and build the OU earlier was the right choice. I approved that decision, but now i got some doubts.
I favour chem > bio. DR we can still probably take after that. Surely it is a low priority for AI after Islam is gone. Just keep an eye on if someone researches it.

A GArtist Well that's one we don't mind burning on a GA. Or... what does he bulb after drama/music??

Anything he can bulb, he's the right choice for a GAge. We can still do a good thing settling the GM or found Sushi. I don't like Sushi and i think the benefits in terms of beakers from the increased specialists are overridden by the corporations costs, even if spreaded in few selected cities.

Also, waiting to settle the GM in the Wall Street city can be a waste. Probably the best thing to do is settle him in LP. If we decide to use Lisbona for Wall Street it can be effective in over 20 turns, maybe more. By then we can gain 5 raw gpt (or 6? can't remember) for 20 turns. Also, since buddism is not so diffused and that the IW will go in Nippur we can consider to build the Wall Street in LP and to found Mining Inc there.
It will also benefit from bureaucracy

Please tell me if this can be a good choice, so i don't waste turns keeping the GM idle.

 

[Mesix]

So you can dish out disrespect...but you can't take it.

Now you know how the rest of us feel when you berate us after our TS.

We all have different strategies. Learning from one another, both from our good strategies and our bad, is what makes a SGOTM enjoyable. Getting the requisite "You're stupid because you play differently that I would" after every TS does not.

 

[BLubmuz]

So you can dish out disrespect...but you can't take it.

Now you know how the rest of us feel when you berate us after our TS.

We all have different strategies. Learning from one another, both from our good strategies and our bad, is what makes a SGOTM enjoyable. Getting the requisite "You're stupid because you play differently that I would" after every TS does not.

Pointing out that something not well done, like MM, workers actions and so on is not disrespectful.
Can be annoying, but if we're here to learn each other amongst other things it can help to improve our gameplay.

Different strategies and tactics are the salt of an SG.
Discussing them is the best part of it.
Accomplish them is mandatory for any member of this (any) team.

Once those strategies and tactics are discussed and approved​

You never mentioned your intention to attach the GG to an explorer.
You just did it, despite i posted my plan for that GG.
This is lack of respect, not only for me but for any other team member.

May i point out something more?
You never MM any city, despite my recommendations to verify any city at the end of any turn.

Just a couple examples which i can remember:
- NY could have been stagnated to avoid or limit unhappiness and to speed the Taj or the odeon.
- Pindus is not working one of its best tiles, a windmill.

Then the masterpiece of the explorer.
The preceding TS the city founded in a crappy spot. By mistake? Now i doubt.
In your first one you irrigated the corn, despite my recommendations to not do so.
In fact, LP grew too fast and we has unhappiness there.

Is this team play? If you don't approve my strategy tell it clearly before to play.

Anyway, you're making me losing fun on this SG. I think we can renounce to your contribution. Pity, i don't like those things and you has some good idea.

Good luck

 

[Sweetacshon]

Look, this bickering is a little childish, and on top of that, if you are putting into the public forum in the hope that perhaps the other team members will support one or the other, I doubt it will happen, well, I can only speak for myself, but I suspect that it is the case of others. If you two are going to flame on, at least PM or email it, because it is counter-productive to the rest of us. Better if you perhaps don't post what you may be feeling today and write something more considered when not steaming.

In Mesix' defence, Blubz, you have made remarks of a personal nature, not just game critique. Really, you both have. I'm not taking sides, I wouldn't want either of you to leave the team, I hope it's resolvable, but I'm not sure, because things have been said which are unfair. I'm fairly sure that the problem stems from the fact that Blubmuz' captaincy has transformed into a driving force rather than an administrative role as it was previously. I haven't minded that, as someone needs to drive, but at times he's been a bit undiplomatic and dismissive of certain game ideas. This can at times feel like being railroaded as opposed to the beauty of the sgotm, finding the best path thru cooperation. Sometimes extensive "testing" experience still doesn't highlight the best path, although it does count for a lot. In essence, this has felt like a completely different sgotm, and not what we're used to.

That''s not an attack on you, Blubmuz, you make a valid point on PPPs and so on, but that's about all I want to say about it. I don't really have the energy to talk about the game, now.

 

[BLubmuz]

Look, this bickering is a little childish, and on top of that, if you are putting into the public forum in the hope that perhaps the other team members will support one or the other, I doubt it will happen, well, I can only speak for myself, but I suspect that it is the case of others. If you two are going to flame on, at least PM or email it, because it is counter-productive to the rest of us. Better if you perhaps don't post what you may be feeling today and write something more considered when not steaming.

In Mesix' defence, Blubz, you have made remarks of a personal nature, not just game critique. Really, you both have. I'm not taking sides, I wouldn't want either of you to leave the team, I hope it's resolvable, but I'm not sure, because things have been said which are unfair. I'm fairly sure that the problem stems from the fact that Blubmuz' captaincy has transformed into a driving force rather than an administrative role as it was previously. I haven't minded that, as someone needs to drive, but at times he's been a bit undiplomatic and dismissive of certain game ideas. This can at times feel like being railroaded as opposed to the beauty of the sgotm, finding the best path thru cooperation. Sometimes extensive "testing" experience still doesn't highlight the best path, although it does count for a lot. In essence, this has felt like a completely different sgotm, and not what we're used to.

That''s not an attack on you, Blubmuz, you make a valid point on PPPs and so on, but that's about all I want to say about it. I don't really have the energy to talk about the game, now.

Sweeta, is true i'm really angry for what Mesix did.
I recognise that i in some way have tryed to drive the team instead of limit myself to "an administrative role" as i enjoyed to do in the past SGs.

I also agree on the fact that "extensive "testing" experience" as you said not necessarily drives to the best paths or ideas. In fact Mesix gave some good ideas, like other members did and i changed mine. The actual game made the rest to change things.

But the point which hurts me is the way Mesix did what he did in his TS.
Not a word preannouncing that move, not a word telling that my suggestion was wrong or he not like it.
He did more things not in line with our strategy and they wasn't mistakes, like the fort in Greenland's BFC instead of a much needed windmill or FP.
Add this to his preceding TSs and the picture is complete.

The fact that i express my opinions in this forum is, for me at least, natural.
PM him does not resolve anything. I don't want or need any member to take part for anyone of us. I just want my thoughts are clear to all the members.

I'm the oldest member of this team, together with you.
I invited Mesix 'cause he seemed a pleasant person and a decent player.
I don't find his conduct pleasant now.

About my "remarks of a personal nature" on Mesix, i just said that he's probably overconfident on his cheesy Deity EQM.

I'm sorry and i apologize with anyone of you if i've been harsh in criticizing some action of your TSs. That wasn't my intention. Far from me to hurt anyone.
My intention was to try to improve this team gameplay.

But all Mesix's TSs registered some bad, not planned, not mistaken but deliberate moves, which go beyond simple mistakes or inadvertences.

 

[greatbeyond]

I usually do what Sweetacshon suggested, and composed this and then set it aside to come back and re read before sending. Words written in haste are usually regretted quickly.

We'll I don't have much time to comment right now, but I can say "ditto" to Sweetachson's remarks. I can also understand some of the comments Blubmuz has made and Mesix. You can both be partly right!

It is hard when you play with people you don't know personally, or haven't played with long enough, to know what their personality is like and the personal quirks they have. In addition, words translated or used in your second language may have a different meaning than what you think. Cultural differences can also affect how we treat others of our culture that when used on others might come across differently than meant. This can lead to problems when one person hates sarcasm and the other loves to use it. It can also mean that someone "types" a personality in the forums that comes across different than they would in person. Take the example of the 14-year-old who is really good at a combat game and plays on-line and trash-talks and generally acts like he knows the answer to everything, but in real life is much different. This medium of just typing words doesn't convey thoughts accurately, personalities, jokes, etc... and sometimes people get carried away. It is imperfect, so I usually give the benefit of the doubt.

I have learned much in past SG games from the different types that have been part of this team and others. Variety is the spice of life. Sometimes I don't care for the way it is presented or I could have thought of a more pleasant way to get the idea across. Sometimes I don't have an idea what the difference is.

As for the decisions, I can hardly believe that Mesix did anything he did because he wanted to ruin our chances. He has a proven track record just like Blubmuz, if I don't agree with the action, but can't prove why mine was so much better, I leave it alone or agree to disagree.
I do expect that sometimes even EQMs can make what appear to be "less than perfect" choices. If it appears that way, ask why. Sometimes there are firm differences that neither faction wants to budge on. Thus we turn to the vote and the majority decides. It isn't possible to vote on everything, so if it gets that far it is time to step back. Sometimes it may just have been a less than optimal choice made in a hurry or at a time of unclear thought.

The GG
Blubmuz did discuss this and Neither myself or any others commented otherwise. I know for myself I didn't give it as much attention as I should have for I considered it a preference, not a completed act. It wasn't until the last two SGOTMs where I came to firmly believe in the power of the supermedic. The results of the last TS where we lost one Para shows just what might have happened to our superpara. Unless we use all the GG points to make him a superdefender (impregnable but defeating the purpose of him healing units) at some point he will defend. With my recent streak of bad luck of losing at combat odds of 99.8% and 100% I know it is possible he could have been the one to die. As for the airdrop capability, it is a trade off and one that can be acceptable. At least to me anyway....

As everyone should, I would suggest this be resolved between the two of you via PM and not a flamewar.

 

[BLubmuz]

Words written in haste are usually regretted quickly.

Sure.
That's why i wrote the first post on this page only this morning (the time you see in my first post on this page is morning here).

As any important decision in a SG, the one Mesix took could have been debated, discussed, approved or disapproved.
It wasn't.
He just did the wrong thing.
Not absolutely wrong since there may be some cons (the explorer will never defend), but wrong since i clearly recommended another thing.
And nobody posted a comma saying different.

As for the decisions, I can hardly believe that Mesix did anything he did because he wanted to ruin our chances.

But the results demonstrate the opposite. Or at least we need efforts to recover those mistakes. 2 for every TS, on average.
And the way he made certain moves demonstrates some kind of sabotage. Why? ask him.

Your point about the fact english is my second language is absolutely correct.
I probably can catch sarcasms in this language, but it's very difficult for me use it actively. And i feel i lack something since in italian i use often sarcasms and jokes with words.
In fact i find often difficult to expose my thoughts as i would do.
Sometime i choose the shortest way to say something, since what i wish to say is too complicated for my english skills.

This situation is ruining this SG, but sincerely, it's stronger than me.
I can't accept certain actions and attitudes.

Now, since i don't wanna change my thoughts, please let's decide what to do.

 

[unclethrill]

I have known Mesix personally for 2+ years. In fact, he and I have worked together in a very small building for 40 hours a week for those 2 years. He is a good guy but very opinionated. He will argue his point to death if he thinks he is right (which he believes most of the time). I assure all that while he may not have followed the PPP to the letter every turn, he did not do anything maliciously. He has a way he plays and it is the best way in his mind. Whether or not it is the best could be debated to the end of time.

There are a lot of strong personalities in this group as I am sure are in the other groups too. The key to winning anything team-based is not necessarily having the most optimal plan but working as a team to get and implement the best ideas. We all have our strengths and all have weaknesses. The idea is to capitalize on the strengths and eliminate the weaknesses.

Whether or not things can be worked out is beyond my control but as Sweet and GB have said, the arguments should be taken off-line and hopefully the issues can be worked out and we can use this to make the team stronger.

When life gives you lemons, ... well you know how it goes.




As far as deciding what to do, we need to press on. We need OU as soon as we can do it. I don't think that 7 turns is that long especially based on how many extra beakers we get. We also need to make quick work of this war so that we can press on to the end game. We have a supermedic. It may not be the optimal choice (while it may be, who knows??) but we have the scout so lets use him to the best of our abilities.

As far as not following the PPP to the letter, I think that we all need to try to follow as close as possible and if there is gonna be a significant deviation then save the TS where you are and make a post to see what the team's opinion is.


That's my 2 cents so lets keep driving to the finish line and win this one!

 

[BLubmuz]

When life gives you lemons, ... well you know how it goes.

No, i don't.
Sorry, this is one of the limits GB pointed out.
It's surely a saying every native-english speaking child knows.
Not me

Anyway, i'm sure that Mesix is not a bad person, just ... well you know him (one of the rare cases in CFC, i guess).

I was surely harsh with my post after his TS, and i don't regret a comma of what i posted. I regret only to not being able to expose my thoughts as i can do in my language.

Obviously Mesix did not enjoyed that post and the war began.

I started this openly by intention, and i'll finish this openly.
Since you all (at least, the ones which posted today) ask to close this accident, let's close it. But the things will stay.
To Mesix decide what to do.

Just this: next time you'll take a key decision not even discussed or, worst, opposed to a suggestion of any other member without informing the team, you're out.

In your TS you wasted worker turns, hammers and gold not MM properly.
I can't accept this by a - supposed - deity player. We're on quick, Mesix, not on marathon as we HoFers use to play.
I already listed your mistakes, aside the GG. Pointless repeat them.

Well, i already posted my PPP and i can play probably tomorrow night if some things i have still not decided will be clear. I mean mainly the research path, once finished Econ in 1 turn. I can't even start OU in my TS, we still lack 2 Unis, IIRC.

Then the GM. I'm strongly against Sushi, and the benefits of settling him in LP are immediate. With OU and WS there it will the best bet for us.
Since i don't wanna waste turns if we decide in this way, better the things are clear before i play.

 

[Sweetacshon]

When life gives you lemons, ... well you know how it goes.

I'm not sure I understand, either.

I'm certain Mesix didn't intentionally sabotage anything. Misclicks happen. I seem to remember loading all units into a galleon in a previous game to lose the newly conquered double shrine Delhi for a turn, and so increasing revolt there by another 10ish turns. Ingame decisions should be in the PPP ideally, but not all can be. The GG was brought up before the TS, tho, and if a scout was planned, it could've been discussed. The fort I don't mind, as the workers over there are stuck until an airport or boat anyway. Fell free to change a tile every turn to keep yourself interested. I'm not sure any of us has played perfectly, and in any case we won't know until we compare ourselves with the laurel teams. So, let's try and keep the melodrama to a minimum, hey? What say you, Mesix? Are you still around?

Techs- I'm up for bio, I already stated this. In any case, the GA will crank things along. I'm just not familiar enough with corps - I really should make more of an effort to become moreso. Considering that we haven't cottaged and are effectively a SE apart from FP/windmills, I thought the extra food from Sushi to support extra specialists or, say, workshops for more prod'n would be welcome. Am I wrong? We do have a fair bit of seafood... should we try and collect more? I guess I'm up for sushi (in the game as well) from my limited experience, unless someone has some damning numbers that rule it out.

BTW, Blubz, Vancouver needs another wm almost immediately, I recommend stopping that roading worker and building one.

 

[Mesix]

Here's my PPP,

Research paths (my preferred on top...we can discuss)

Guilds (3) > Banking (3) > Economics (4)
alternate Chemistry (3) > Biology (10)

War plans - Take Babylon and Akkad...more from Hammy if I can

Building queues:

LP - Paratrooper (1) > Observatory (3) > Laboratory (4)
Athens - X-bow (2) > X-bow (3) > Paratrooper (6)
Blubzville - Paratrooper (5) > Paratrooper (5)
Pindus - University (4) > Observatory (5)
Sparta - Galleon (2) > Library (3) > Odeon (2)
Panama - Courthouse (1) > Forge (12)
New York - Taj Mihal (8)
Cornith - Granary (2) > Workboat (2) > Courthouse (8)
Kassite (Greenland) - Forge (13)
Opis - Forge (27)
Nippur - Courthouse (??? still in revolt)

Workers...we have 12 so I will post some general goals and not micromanage all 12 here

Finish forest preserves around LP
Finish forest preserves around Pindus
Build watermill and workshops around Panama
Build some forest preserves near New York
Build farms to spread irrigation from Nippus to the wheet near Blubzville

I have quoted my PPP. The only deviations from this were the ones that were discussed AFTER the PPP was posted. There is no mention of a GG in the PPP. You can all go back and read the past couple of pages for yourself and find that NOBODY mentions a GG in any of the discussion following my PPP. I'm sorry that I missed the earlier comment that was made about the GG. When I failed to mention the GG in my PPP (an oversight because I didn't plan to have one to use) nobody cared to comment on that ommission at the time...only after the fact. When ingame events occur that are not part of the PPP, it is up to the individual player to make an informed decision. I happen to use a GG on a scout/explorer in almost every game to great effect. It is a tactic that I learned by one of the better players on this forum that I have adopted which prooves effective. Because of this decision, we were able to take three cities insted of two during my TS. That will save us 1-2 turns...not cost us. If he is used correctly, the GG/Healer can also help to shorten the coming war with Joao. Taking time to learn why people do something different often yields better results than blasting them for not doing it your way.

As for the micromanagement...you are dead wrong. I spent about 10 minutes monkeying with New Yonrk to try to get the necessary to shave one turn off the finish of the Taj Mihal. There was just no way to do it without starving the city or reallocating the Lumbermill from Pindus (which is now a FP). I also went through the other cities and tried to find creative ways to run more specialists. I did miss the unworked windmill in Pindus...sorry about that...we all make mistakes. I was MM to find extra specialists since we are not utilizing our Representation civic nearly as well as we could. As for the unhappiness, New York did not grow into unhappiness do to mismanagement...it became unhappy when one of the AI players adopted Emancipation. The fact that someone is running Emancipation should clue us into the fact that someone has Democracy already and may be able to beat us to the Statue of Liberty (if that is a worthwhile goal).

As for remaining on the team...if you guys want me to play then I will play. If not...then I won't. When I play a game or a TS, I always play to the best of my ability. Sometimes the results are good, cheasy or not. I am competative and I like to win. I am not a resentful person who likes to spite people.

 

[unclethrill]

When life gives you lemons, make lemonade!


Meaning, when life gives you bad things, make the best of it.

 

[BLubmuz]

This is the post where i mention the GG, quoting yours with my comments in red.

Where i not comment, i agree. Some comment are just to remind you the mid term goals (say, what i'd like to find in my TS)

Final recommendations for the war:
jump the Para in Nippur to join the stack for Babylon. He will kill a cat, and he'll join our GG to gain Medic3+Morale. We probably have our GG in your first full turn, max in your second.
The other medic will try a safe combat, he must arrive at 10XP the hard way to gain medic2
The Para LP is finishing will JUMP in Athens and move next to that damn sword. He can eat our warrior for breakfast.

Once hooked, trade our only fur to Shaka for dyes. Soon Kassite will expand his borders and we'll have our fur by hooking the one on the hill.

I already left you recover your skipped TS. Just take a look in my #2, in () there are the TS played by each one of us. you're playing your 3rd, like me. The player after me will begin the 4th cycle.

Exactly 3 posts below your PPP.
I can't believe you have missed it.
I've also talk about the GG previously, so this was just a refresh.

A post like your last one yesterday will probably have avoided my "flames".
I'm Latin, remember? northern, but Latin.

And the fort? you could have built almost 2 windmills instead.
Even if we use it (and i strongly doubt) it's in a wrong position. And we can use it after Portugal is gone and after the long trip north of our paras.

Back to my PPP, or i can't play. I need comments about:
1) my proposal for the GM: i think that the benefits to have WS in LP are great.
2) the tech path
I think that the 2 turns diversion to quickly build Versailles in Babylon will pay for itself in few turns after Versailles will be built. The later we build it, the later we'll benefit.
The soon we'll build it, the soon we can sell DR for money and/or techs like drama and music.
so: Finish Economics, finish Chem, finish DR or viceversa can be done in in my TS. I can probably arrive to start Bio, then we can discuss.

 

[greatbeyond]

No more "milk product" comments please.

The TS looks OK, but I haven't examined it thoroughly enough to find any little holes you might have missed. It is one of those things that I can trust you'll make a reasonable decision at the spur of the moment if something comes up. If something comes up you can always pause for a few hours and post and see what suggestions there are. Nothing more than I would expect from myself or any other player. I'll be able to check the thread off and on throughout the day, but not able to look in depth for about 8 - 10 hours.

 

[BLubmuz]

A brilliant idea is crossing my mind

At this stage of the game we need mainly money to increase the research, than pure research.
If the first GPerson we'll try to squeeze from Pindus will be a GM we can found Sushi and settle the GM in LP. The GM from Pindus can arrive just in time for the corps. In the meantime, 9 merchants will assure a good income to sustain our expansion and a decent research. What about it?
If we decide for Sushi, of course.

Last but not least, LP is the only city with good commerce and good production.
WS is an expensive NW.

The TS looks OK,
the PPP you mean?
but I haven't examined it thoroughly enough to find any little holes you might have missed.

In case, only in the PPP.
Rest assured i miss anything in my TS.

BTW, Blubz, Vancouver needs another wm almost immediately, I recommend stopping that roading worker and building one.

I'm suffering for the lack of improvements with a GAge approaching, but the roads are too much important for the war.

 

[Sweetacshon]

I'm suffering for the lack of improvements with a GAge approaching, but the roads are too much important for the war.

Won't they be "flying" anyway?

Double GM is a good idea. What's the % chance (ie is the pool already mixed?) and how long will it take? If these answers are acceptable, I'm ok with settling. The other option is trade mission for running a deficit. What about that option??

 

[BLubmuz]

Won't they be "flying" anyway?
On a certain extent, yes. But they need also roads to use the 2/3 spare movement.
A good road network can save 1 turn in wartime (on that specific tile). It can be a big difference.
Having a city with a para or the para right outside the city

Double GM is a good idea. What's the % chance (ie is the pool already mixed?) and how long will it take? If these answers are acceptable, I'm ok with settling. The other option is trade mission for running a deficit. What about that option??

We can do what we want in Pindus.
We'll just avoid to run an Eng until the first GPers will pop.
And we'll build something after the NP to avoid too much pollution from the NE.
Not much, after Bio.
Trade mission? we need to afford a 10 turns trip in a galleon to make it effective.
But we can see when the time comes.

 

[Mesix]

Will LP have WS and OU?

Part of the reason LP is producing so much is because we are at 50% on the slider. As our economy recovers and the slider is adjusted for more the in LP will be reallocated and the benefit will decrease.

I'm not saying it is a bad idea...just pointing out one of the potential downsides.

What are the other options for WS?

 

[Mesix]

We can run merchants in Pindus. They have raw 3 and 3 under representation as opposed to the 6 from a scientist. With the education buildings in place, the merchants will give slightly less return than the scientists, but the additional GM may make it worthwhile.

Perhaps the cost/benefit analysis should compare the adjusted output of the additional GM in LP (if he is settled) to the adjusted output of 9 scientists vs 9 merchants in Pindus.

A trade mission with Wang or HC may produce more than settling the GM. We can airlift the GM to his destination.