SGOTM 09 - Fifth Element

[Mesix]

We could build the GW in city number 2 or 3. Any good production city that will not be used to build other wonders. The GS points won't matter too much if we aren't running specialists in that city. We could use that city to crank out Paratroopers once we get Rifling.

Paratroopers is another good reason to go for the tech path I outlined. We should be able to take nearby AI territory with Paratroopers, but only if we get to Rifling first. Our military advantage will be short lived if we don't beeline Rifling and use Paratroopers before the AI get them.

 

[greatbeyond]

You won't have time to build the GW in a 3rd city and probably not a 2nd city that even has Stone.

The first GP will be a GS if you build the GW. The next GP will almost certainly to be a GrSpy. Now this may sound unwanted to those who have not used Espionage in BTS, but you can use them to steal techs from the AI. Early in the game it can help you keep pace with the AI without tech trading good techs to them. This is especially helpful when you get into the WFYABTA situation, and the AI won't trade with you.

Depending on the tech path you choose, You build the GW first and it will be done before you can even start building the Oracle.

Here is the build order I used for the tests I ran. I did not whip any of these nor did I chop any forests, so we can do much better. As I discussed earlier I had one test where the AI got both the Oracle and Pyramids very early, which leads me to believe we will need to use whipping and/or chopping.
Site A:
WB T12
Warrior T17
GW T34
Settler T41
Oracle T50

Site B:
WB T8
Warrior T12
GW T26
Settler T32
Warrior T33
Worker T37
Oracle T47
Worker T51

I will try to run a couple of tests tonight using Mesix's suggested path for a CS sling.

 

[Mesix]

I still don't see the point in a CS sling. I have teched to Liberalism without bulbing or Oracle on cheap/early techs in all of my games. In the OOC Gauntlet, one of the players used the Oracle to pop Education. This could be useful. Otherwise I'm still a big fan of getting a more expensive late game tech. Genetics seems like the best choice.

In addition to the extra health in every city and early SS component build, Genetics makes a great tech to trade the AI playes for techs that we miss while beelining. About the time that we finish Apollo and the National Forest, we can whore out Genetics to every AI player to catch up on any techs that we missed and be ready to head for the late game with a big lead.

 

[WastinTime]

You will be so far ahead in Tech. No one will have anything to trade you. I constantly give away tech in the gauntlet. Genetics will take you about 3 turns to research. Electricity would be ok if you thought you'd spam windmills, but I doubt it. CS gets you to Biology 10 turns faster and that's all that matters.

My test got me NatPark and Rifling both on turn 110. The AI was just getting longbows. You'd have time to conquer the entire planet before you see anything tougher than macemen.
The tech jump from 200+ to 500+ beakers/turn is amazing. I'm using Oxford/NatPark, 16 forests in the capital. The early forest perserves are awesome in the capital! The happiness allows it to grow to 20+ quickly with the 2 corn.

BTW, now I love GW for barbs games. You only build a couple warriors, then paratroopers. It's definitely worth the investment to completely ignore barbs. Of course...it doesn't work in the water. So I would try to avoid fishing boats.

 

[Sweetacshon]

Sorry, chaps, I'm having assets probs that only just surfaced. I installed the OOS patch for multiplayer... perhaps this was the problem. After stuffing around for too long with .dlls and whatnot, I'm just reinstalling. Should have it sorted soon. Sorry

 

[Sweetacshon]

Not sure what that was all about, but it was messy.

Anyway, so here we are. The scout ends up due west and finds SFA. I can play any time from now, but will wait a little while. I'll also trawl this thread and put opinions into a summary so we know where everyone stands.

 

[Simon_c]

Ooo. I see the first move before I have to go offline

So, I think the settler going 2N would be the best bet, then workboat, warior,
then if there's no stone close enough to get a 2nd city on it, go worker then GW before getting the other cities up.

I don't think the sky points are a problem. A settled GSpy gets 3 :beakers: and lots of EPs for steeling techs.


But then I probably don't play as effecianly as others.

Hopefully I'll be lurking by the weekend and posting early next week. But it could be up to two weeks.
Good luck. !!

 

[Sweetacshon]

Here's what I gleaned about the first few turns. Obviously I might've missed things, and far more was said, but this is looking at the first couple of sets.

Simon:
We might be able to get Guilds from the Oracle, and tech gunpowder before getting Liberalism to pop Rifling.

Blub:
3) revolt to PS and Environment on turn 0
4) first build Warrior, then worker, warrior, settler. No WB until we'll have triremes: when Gyathaar says "barbs are meaner" i'm worried for our nets.
5) research: wheel, then mining > BW

1) Wheel
2) mining > BW
3a) agri > pottery > WRITING, for our cheap libraries OR
3b) AH > Wri
4) Myst > Masonry > (for GW and Mids) Poly > PH for Oracle

site B

gb:
Build order:
I have been building a WB first, another WB (if a second sea resource is there), then a Worker. Sometimes I have built a 2nd Worker before starting the GW. After the GW I build a defensive unit for the extra happy face, and then a Settler to set up a city to build the Oracle in.

Techs: I favor Mining, BW, Masonry, Myst, Meditation, PH.

If there isn't any other Ocean resource in the BFC of either site, we should go with site B. If we are going to follow the strategy I have used. (You're right Blubmuz)
Research:
I have tested this tech line extensively.
Mining, Masonry, BW, Mysticism, Meditation, PH, Wheel, Pottery, MC.

There is very little chance of getting a CS slingshot unless the Oracle is the only wonder we try to complete and we prioritize our research over production. There is a chance that we may be able to research quick enough to take MC from the Oracle. After looking at all the options, I believe Electricity should be our choice, but MC is a good 2nd choice. The quicker we get it, the quicker we can build the Colossus, if we have Copper.

Barbs appear consistently on turn 34.

Spoiler plan :

Site A:
WB T12
Warrior T17
GW T34
Settler T41
Oracle T50

Site B:
WB T8
Warrior T12
GW T26
Settler T32
Warrior T33
Worker T37
Oracle T47
Worker T51

Mesix:
site A

Berserks:
A

uncle:
A then undecided

So in conclusion, my choices are to move the scout 1N2W and wait to decide if we settle 1N of the lake or 1N of the corn. Based on what the scout reveals we then move the settle either 2N to settle on turn 1 or 2N1E to settle on turn 1, revolt to PS and Environ. Settle on turn 1 and start building a WB to get the fish ASAP while not impeding growth of the city.

1. GW built around turn 37
2. Oracle built on average turn 55 but once as early as 46
3. First Barbs around 38
4. SH built around turn 40
5. Barb Axemen only appeared in the first 70 turns on one game at turn 53 but they tore through my warriors.

 

[Sweetacshon]

So, the questions for my TS:
1. Where to settle, A or B?
2. We seem to agree on mining first. BW or masonry after that?
3. Everyone seems afraid of barb galleys wasting our wb hammers. What are people's experiences with this in tests? wb, worker, or warrior first?
Otherwise, it's work tiles for growth, and move scout out in concentric 14 circles for 8ish turns (perhaps 2techs?).

 

[BLubmuz]

Sorry, i read the thread, but never found time to post.

First, it's nice see WT around, with some good ideas and suggestions.

But definitely i like to settle on the corn: more production, great number of forests, 2 along a river.
Warrior first.
Mining
Myst > Masonry, then we'll decide. Remember that have Myst will save some research on Masonry.

WB? no, until we'll have a trireme. But i can change my mind: maybe warrior > WB?

 

[berserks01]

Just wondering here, but do we really need to settle next to the lake for health? I mean, if we're going Environmentalism and with all those forests, health shouldn't be a problem.

I don't like settling on the corn because it would waste a very good food resource for a few less turns at the beginning. Settling on either 2N or 2N1E will net us that ice in our BFC, which isn't overly bad but still a bad tile and better than on the corn IMO.

Any thoughts on settling on the hill 2E? About the same number of forests as 2N, with no ice.

Otherwise, I put my vote in to settle 2N.

 

[Mesix]

I really don't think that settling on the corn is a good idea. Only one person (including WT who pointed out that fish and 2 corn farms=7 specialists) seems to think that squatting on a resource and squandering the 3 is a good idea. I think the discussion on this is already over done.

I also think that MC is a waste to research or get with the Oracle. The Colossus will be obsolete very quickly in this game. We don't really need forges until later in the game. By the time we get Liberalism we can back fill the early tech tree through trading (or demanding techs when we war with a few civs).

In my recent OCC Gauntlet game, I used the Oracle to get CS around turn 40. I used Liberalism to get Biology around turn 125. We can get to Biology faster with more cities. Rifling or Rocketry from Liberalism are also possible.

We can find a better spot for the National Forest. Let's settle north of the lake for our capital. We will get the fish and both farms. We can use that food to crank out settlers and workers early on and to run multiple specialists later.

 

[Mesix]

If we aren't set on settling near the lake, then 2E1N will get us both hills (for mines), all three resources, and could possible reveal more seafood. As Berserks pointed out, Environmentalism should take care of our .

 

[Mesix]

What are we going to name our capital?

The usual: Fifthberg.

or something more space/time travel themed like Gallifrey.

 

[unclethrill]

Based on the scout's discovery, I'm kinda partial to 2E now. I'll look more and place a solid vote as soon as I get to work. About an hour or so.

 

[berserks01]

2E1N will actually give us 3 hills, the tile 1S of 2E is a forested grass hill.

 

[unclethrill]

2E1N will actually give us 3 hills, the tile 1S of 2E is a forested grass hill.

I think we may need to re-evaluate based on the lost tiles of ice. I agree with Berserk and Mesix that based on what the scout saw 2E1N is the prime spot to settle. As far as BW goes as an early tech, I think archery and a couple archers are a better choice. Simply because if there is no copper, we have no early defenders other than warriors. We don't plan to chop early since we can build LM. And I still think that if we want an early game tech from the oracle, it should be CS. The only wonders we need are Oracle, Mids and possible the GW but the first 2 are must haves. GL is already outdated. I'm also really leaning towards Bio for the NP like WT said from Lib. I have been able to get it everytime in the OCC in HOF and while getting Apollo really early would be nice unless we have parts to build it is of no use. We need to time Apollo's finish date to coincide with the ability to build parts or it is just sitting there idle. Those hammers could be better spent increasing research earlier to make the late techs come quicker.

 

[WastinTime]

I think you can't build a levee (or hydroplant) unless you're on the river. I'd leave the fish for a 2nd city. You need 6.

Please play a test game with the capital as Oxford/NatPark with 15+ forests. Build the preserves to keep the capital happy/growing all thru the early game. You already have freakishly high health from the forests and Environmentalism. Just build a small 6 city empire for Oxford. Biology free from Lib (turn 105). NatPark and Rifling t110. You will become a believer. Play another 10 turns to see how the city explodes cus you're popping out/settling so many GP. You can probably double/triple the size of your empire now with the paratroopers. Stabilize around t140. Launch t180.

 

[Mesix]

After playing a total of five test games and running through the OCC a couple of times I am beginning to see the benefit in getting CS from Oracle and Biology from Liberalism. I agree that the National Forest is a huge exploit that can help us get a pre turn 200 finish. The only thing I disagree with WT on the capital.

I think it is better to get the fish in the capital and have 3 food resources. All that food will help us to crank out settlers/workers early on. The OCC didn't need any settlers and only a couple of workers, so food was less important early on. I agree that we build Oxford in the Capital and settle most (one GS for Academy, perhaps another to bulb a tech) great people in the Capital as well. I just think that the Capital will generate a lot of early GS with food and a second city spot can be found later for the National Park (with 10 or so forests) where we can also build the National Epic (2 wonder limit since this is not OCC) to abuse all the GPP. Great People that pop out of the National Park can walk to the capital and settle.

 

[Mesix]

On a more pressing note, build order:

In every test game I built a WB first. Barbarian Galleys don't pop up until turn 40-50 or later. The city grows to size 2-3 while building WB and the food from the fish helps build the first Worker much faster.

Work Boat
Worker
Archer
Worker
Settler