SGOTM 09 - Fifth Element

[Mesix]

Unclethrill makes good sense with his idea for Archery. Teching BW is not necessary since we do not need to war early on nor chop forests. Archers can defend our cities until we get to the mid game and expand with our Paratroopers. Proposed Tech Path:

Archery
Agriculture
Masonry
Wheel
Mysticism
Meditation
Priesthood
Writing
Mathematics
Code of Laws
Civil Service (Oracle)
Alphabet...we don't need to research, AI will trade.
Philosophy
Paper
Education

There is no need to get BW, IW, or MC at all. It is a waste of time to research these tech when we can trade for them or demand them from AI players when our Paratroopers take out their Swordsmen and Longbowmen at about turn 120.

We also don't need to get Asthetics or anything it opens up early on. The Great Library is already obsolete from free techs. We will have happiness from Forest Preserves. We can trade for those techs later on to build the National Epic in the National Forest city.

Winning this challenge is all about beelining for Biology and then getting the necessary late game techs for SS components.

 

[unclethrill]

I suggest Hill Valley for the name of our first city. It is where Alex traveled back to the future.

 

[Mesix]

Think McFly!

 

[berserks01]

I think it is better to get the fish in the capital and have 3 food resources. All that food will help us to crank out settlers/workers early on.

That's part of the reason I didn't want to settle on the corn. Archery seems a good choice, but I'm a little skeptically afraid of this "meaner barb" comment thrown out there.

Hopefully we'll get Rifling before that happens.

 

[Mesix]

Just to make the barbarian setting a bit clearer:

The barbarians has as earlier stated not been given any extra starting techs (beyond what the game automatically give them).. in fact it is impossible to give them any extra techs since the starting saves are made from a worldbuilder save, and barbarian tech settings doesn't exist in this file..

They have also not been given any free starting units. (But don't let this lull you into a false safety)

Since raging barbarians are NOT turned on, that doesn't leave many options for how I made the barbarians more wicked than normal... most teams seems to have guessed or learned parts of this this was done already.

I think the barbarians have starting cities. This is more a benefit than a threat as we can take over the barbarian cities. Wheter or not this is the case, since thy do not have bonus units nor bonus techs, a couple of archers per city should be adequate defense while we tech to Rifeling. This is espeically true if we get the Great Wall.

 

[greatbeyond]

If we are not going to settle on Site B ( Corn) a better alternative to Site A, now that we see to the NW, is the compromise Mesix suggested, 1N2E (call it Site C). Perhaps there is another seafood resource in the fog. This lets us keep the higher production tiles. The lack of fresh water will not be a huge hit for the early part of the game.

Site B is still the best choice for quicker growth in the first 60 turns. After that the balance tilts toward Site A or C.

There are no Barbs until T34 unless the designer has edited them in. A WB first, provides a huge growth boost early.

Wow, It took me ten minutes to think and post, and I just checked and there are all these new posts to digest. Especially the comment about raging Barbs NOT turned on.

As long as there aren't any Barbs edited in, a Warrior first is a waste. There is probably no chance of stealing a Worker and depending on the AI we may not want to.

 

[WastinTime]

I suggest Hill Valley for the name of our first city. It is where Alex traveled back to the future.

Oh yea, I forgot about the Back to the Future theme.
Does is help that I drive a DeLorean as my daily driver? Had it for 10 years. Still in mint condition and mechanically sound.

 

[BLubmuz]

Some BFC drawn to see food and production.
Site 1:
hills 3, 1 forested
GL forests 7, 2 along river
GL 3, 2 with corn (1 is city center)
fish + lake + 6 coast

Site 2:
hills 2, 1 forested
GL forests 3, 1 along river
GL 3, 2 with corn
fish + lake + 5 coast + 6 ocean
No fresh water, but this can be of not much importance with environment and so on.

Site 3:
hills 1
GL forests 6
GL 5, 2 with corn
fish + lake + 5 coast + 6 ocean or ice.

As you can see, site 1 gives us the best production, more forests (for production/happy/commerce) and only coast, not ocean or ice.
All this renouncing to 3 food.
Don't get fooled by the food resources. (Think like Gyathaar probably did: environmentalism from the beginning, lots of forests, too much food) it's a trap: i can bet the top teams will settle on corn.
We need happiness to grow our capital.
7 GL forests guarantee a 13 cap, which we can reach easily with the remaining corn and the fish. Otherwise we'll have the food, but not the happiness to grow.

I'll buy it.
If you add that there will be probably copper on the non-forested hills or grassland, you can see the picture.

For the first build, if you prefere WB, OK, pity if we'll have it pillaged, we can grow in the meantime.

For the first research i propose mining, then Myst, we'll decide after this TS what to do.

Simply i don't think possible the CS sling without gold or gems, unless we try to lightbulb Math with our first GS.

Sorry WT if this last sentence will cause the explosion of your head.

But 2 forest preserve along the river give 3 gold each, almost a gems mine: another point for settle on the corn.
We'll need a lot of workers.

 

[WastinTime]

CS sling is easy w/o gold/gems for one reason... Windmills + Envion. Use these. 3 hills in the capitol will make nice commerce w/ windmills.

 

[greatbeyond]

I'm pretty well set in my preference for settling on the corn. What I still want to test is the other tech path to CS. As I tested different variations of the tech path I proposed earlier, and Electricity vs Genetics from the Oracle, I realized there were lots of different possibilities for research. We just need to remember it's the fastest SR win.

I agree with Mining first. The rest is open for discussion still, I hope. It will depend on what our build goals are and if any of the early techs we research will require a Worker.

I reviewed all the info on the maintenance thread about Barbs. I'm not sure quite what he did, but the test game was hand edited, not done in worldbuilder. I will go back to the Test game and take out raging barbs. I'll try to get it posted tomorrow. If I'm interpreting him right, the Barbs should also get some of the more advanced techs. I'm not sure how long it takes to happen. I assume it is something along the line of the way Axeman don't appear until so many civs learn BW. It seems to me there was some discussion of this during the SGOTM where you played Barbs. I was not in that SGOTM so I don't know the details. I also assume like everyone else, that he has probably created some Barb cities.

 

[Mesix]

Could you make the new test game from scratch? I have played your first test game five times to the mid game (a couple even later). It would be nice to have a fresh map with different (random) opponents nearby to make the test different.

 

[Mesix]

@ Blubz...In my last three test games (took Genetics in the first 2) and all of my OCC Gauntlet attempts, I have been able to get the CS slingshot and also Biology with Liberalism. Accomplishing both requires beelining and ignoring techs that do not add to this goal. That is why I oppose researching down the BW/MC and Asthetics+ lines of the tree. It shouldn't be difficult to tech fast is we keep our eye on the prize.

@WT...You are right about Biology. The extra specialists make a bigger difference than getting Rocketry earlier. With 6+ cities we should be able to build SS components faster than the OCC where they are built in one city. Researching to the necessary late game techs is faster with the National Park.

 

[Sweetacshon]

Are we getting near to agreement?
Sounds like the corn site has the most votes, although I'm not sure I'm convinced. I've settled on many resources, but rarely food. It's just hard to get your head around it.

If we agree on the city site, mining and wb first, I can get started.

Btw, I've had no problems at all with barb galleys in gbs test maps.

 

[Mesix]

Last time I checked, 2 out of 7 was not a majority.

 

[WastinTime]

I think the fish is going to be useless for the first 50+ turns. I'm predicting many smashed workboats. Barb Galleys are gonna tear them to pieces. I would put my 6th city near the fish. After you have Triremes. GW won't save the fish.

Capital on the coast is also not best for distance maint.

 

[WastinTime]

Oh, and you won't ever need archery if you get GW.

 

[Mesix]

How about Mansonry>Agriculture>Wheel for a tech path?

If we get GW we forget Archery. If not...

I doubt we'll see a barbarian Galley in the first 35-40 turns. The extra food (and commerce) from working the Fish will be instrumental to getting Workers and Settlers out. Later on we can build a defensive boat to protect from barbarians if necessary.

 

[BLubmuz]

Mesix, Masonry will cost a lot less with Myst first.
Why research archery? with BW we're guaranteed.

WT, I agree about the nets smashed by barbs, even with GW.
But if we build the WB first we can use it for say 40 turns. No need to research Agri to grow. We can easily trade for those techs after alpha.
Masonry is useful for the GW, or if we have some stone/marble nearby. Pyramids usually come later.
So we can first explore, then decide if we want build the GW (i guess we'll do) and see if we can have some quarry resource.

Roads are important: in quick speed you lose 1 turn like in the other speeds, but its weight is enormous. We must find a place to the wheel somewhere early.
More reflections on Writing: we must build our CHEAP library soon, to try the CS: with 2 scientists at work, we'll pop our first GS in 6 turns.

We don't need mining until we decide to research BW.

What about this path?
1A) Wheel - Myst - pottery - writing (why Myst? 'cause it's a prerequisite, and we'll need it also for Masonry)
or, if you don't like go for pottery,
1B) Wheel - Myst - Med - PH - writing (this is probably better, a bit longer but needed for the CoL).
then we can start the 2nd path:
Masonry (which can be inserted in the first path after Myst if we decide for the GW) mining-BW (i see as a whole, we don't actually need mining alone)
and finally CoL - Math: by that time we'll can decide how to use our GS.

As you can see, the only tech not needed for the CS sling is the wheel, but we can't renounce to that.
Masonry will come in next TS, and by then we'll know if we have some quarry resource and if we'll go for the GW.
The mining+BW combo can be skipped if we dare.

We need tons of workers for windmills and FP, those are the most expensive improvements to build after the quarry.

BTW only settling on corn will give us 3 hills and those nice FP along river with 3 +1 each.
Things would be easier if we decide to go for Genetics or Electricity (windmills +1 ).

Or you've found a way to place windmills on ocean?

 

[BLubmuz]

Are we getting near to agreement?
Sounds like the corn site has the most votes, although I'm not sure I'm convinced. I've settled on many resources, but rarely food. It's just hard to get your head around it. (...)

That's what i meant when i said "it's a trap".
The best location is on a rich food resource: every stupid will not nerf it by settle there.
They'll choose a crappy site, but with that corn to be farmed.
This is Gyathaar's first trap, and the corn is the cheese.

Would you be the mouse? Or try to gain a damn medal (i feel like Matley sometime)?

WT, a coastal capital is not the best.
But i can't see a way to place a capital and a nice circle of good cities around it.
So, pity, but we'll gain some better trade route later.

What if some big desert or barb settled island just East?
a coastal capital will be great in that case.

The corn is only the first trap.
The second are the techs: nice to have Elec or Gen from Oracle, but the CS sling is far more solid.
We can always use lib for those, if we decide to, or try Rifling or even Rocketry.

Another important tech is atronomy: it opens the observatories, and after those the Labs. But it's really too soon for this.

Now i post my proposal on page 1. Please vote for that and let's try to actually begin this game.

Last, the barb techs: IIRC me and Sweeta are the only survivors of that SG.
The barbs know every tech all the Civs know (or all but one) they have contact with all the civs, being everywhere. They also research on their own and they even build wonders. Once i've seen them founding a religion.
So, no need for Gyathaar to give them the techs in WB, they will have them as soon as they'll appear.

 

[unclethrill]

Mesix, Masonry will cost a lot less with Myst first.
Why research archery? with BW we're guaranteed.

What are we guaranteed? There is no guarantee that there will be copper near us and we don't plan to chop the forests early do we?