SGOTM 09 - Fifth Element

[BLubmuz]

What are we guaranteed? There is no guarantee that there will be copper near us and we don't plan to chop the forests early do we?

True, but i'm almost sure copper will appear in the BFC or at least in a decent location.
I would add that archers can almost only defend, if not vs. warriors on plain terrain, but Phalanx are really powerful. As i said, one of the best UU.

Sure like hell we'll not chop our preciuos forests this game.
We can also skip both (mining/BW and archery), build a lot of warriors until Alpha or after the CS sling (if we manage it).
Reseach masonry and succeed in build the GW can also be a good way to skip those techs until later.

 

[Mesix]

I think the idea to build the GW to keep barbs out is solid. We need Massonry early for the Pyramids anyway. The earlier we get Representation the better. We can decide on other military techs (Archery, BW, etc.) after we see which AI players are nearby.

Remember, any time spent researcing techs that do not contribute to our end goal are turns that delay that end goal. If it takes 5 turns to research BW or MC then we've wasted 5 turns. We start with Machinery, so MC is not a prereq for anything that we need.

 

[culdeus]

Been following along some starts so no comments except make sure you've read the maintenance thread.

 

[BLubmuz]

I think the idea to build the GW to keep barbs out is solid. We need Massonry early for the Pyramids anyway. The earlier we get Representation the better. We can decide on other military techs (Archery, BW, etc.) after we see which AI players are nearby.

Remember, any time spent researcing techs that do not contribute to our end goal are turns that delay that end goal. If it takes 5 turns to research BW or MC then we've wasted 5 turns. We start with Machinery, so MC is not a prereq for anything that we need.

I agree on all. For this reason i propose Wheels first.
Without chopping and stone Mids will be a lot expensive, but affordable if we'll have a Bureaucratic Capital.
And if we're not busy fighting barbs.
Let's try to figure after this TS if we can skip the early military techs.
Just remembered that Machinery not only let us build windmills, but RP gives them +1H.

Yeah Culdeus, i'm reading the maintenance thread.
If you're thinking to the barbs thing, i agree with people saying there can be some barb city strategically placed.
Maybe Gyathaar copied the idea from Jesusin's first BotM.

 

[greatbeyond]

I'll take a better look at your plan Blubmuz, when i get home.

If we research techs that require a worker, then we need to build a Worker early on in the build que. That's why I proposed the build que I did, no early Worker.

Don't forget that we can build Lumbermills for an extra Hammer for forests.

I guess as far as Barbs are concerned, we should know in a few turns as the Scout explores. Gyanthaar said the Barbs weren't modded to get advanced units. I'm not sure how long it will take them to be able to build something other than Warriors or Archers. As soon as we know who the AIs are, we can find out what their starting techs are and what they like to research. It is most likely that there are Barb cities.

 

[WastinTime]

Let me tell you a story...
I played a game where I figured I would use the food from my flood plains w/ cottages and 1 gold to get to alpha, then trade for agri to use my corn. Replaying this game I found it is a mistake to ignore the corn that long. It's so powerful to grow quickly and then build settlers/workers super fast. Moral of story: Get Ag, get worker early.

 

[culdeus]

Been following along some starts so no comments except make sure you've read the maintenance thread.

Really, the shift-hold thing with the settler is the main thing. It's up to you all whether you want to use it.

 

[berserks01]

Well, AlanH left out the most important point .
From how the path is drawn you can learn if the movement is up, down or level. That means you can tell for every tile in the fog if it is water, flat, hill or peak.

Meh, I guess so. I don't know if I'd be pedantic enough to worry about it myself though. Knowing where the boundaries of the island/continent/whatever are a little ahead of time isn't a big issue.

I believe this is what culdeus is talking about, and I had a suspicion about it once I saw it mentioned. Never did have a change to try it out though.

We can use it to tell the boundaries of our landmass as well as lakes/peaks/hills/etc and see if there are landmasses nearby as well (I think).

 

[greatbeyond]

The WB takes less time to build than a Worker and the time required to create a farm. The WB should take precedence. We will have no problem growing to the happy cap very quickly.

 

[Simon_c]

well, i'm back from hospital and feeling well enough to lurk & post. i'll let you know about playing nearer when i'm up. wouldn't want to plaay too doped up on pain killers

looking through the posts, there was some talk about not bothering with the WB, untill it could be defended, but i've not seen sailing in any tech plan, and we need metal casting for triremes.

other than that, you are all way ahead of me. i just can't hold the number of variables in my head to add anything useful to the discussion about where city1 should be.

 

[Mesix]

The WB takes less time to build than a Worker and the time required to create a farm. The WB should take precedence. We will have no problem growing to the happy cap very quickly.

As we build Forest Preserves our happy cap will increase.

 

[greatbeyond]

I have edited the original test save to take out the raging Barbs and have changed all the Civs but one. I have not changed the map layout or added Barbs. I'll have to start from scratch to do that. I think Pangaea is the most likely setting, but I suppose I could do continents or any other map someone thinks may match.

 

[WastinTime]

As we build Forest Preserves our happy cap will increase.

Right the capital can grow constantly. Very unusual game. That's why I like more river/forests in the capital than a coastal start will provide. I'd settle 1S on the river.

 

[Sweetacshon]

Last, the barb techs: IIRC me and Sweeta are the only survivors of that SG.
The barbs know every tech all the Civs know (or all but one) they have contact with all the civs, being everywhere. They also research on their own and they even build wonders. Once i've seen them founding a religion.
So, no need for Gyathaar to give them the techs in WB, they will have them as soon as they'll appear.

Yes, but their teching was very slow- a few beakers a turn based on some formula I don't recall. However, if they stat with a couple of cities, they'll be generating their "own" beakers. Also, again I don't remember exactly, but they get free techs based on the techs the civs have... 2/3 or something. Anyway, let's just build the GW and forget archery and BW. Unless we are next to a loony, of course.

well, i'm back from hospital and feeling well enough to lurk & post. i'll let you know about playing nearer when i'm up. wouldn't want to plaay too doped up on pain killers

looking through the posts, there was some talk about not bothering with the WB, untill it could be defended, but i've not seen sailing in any tech plan, and we need metal casting for triremes.

other than that, you are all way ahead of me. i just can't hold the number of variables in my head to add anything useful to the discussion about where city1 should be.

Hope everything went well. Don't worry about all the diiscussion... there's a lot of fluff. Have you tried one of the test maps? It helps to get up to speed.

The WB takes less time to build than a Worker and the time required to create a farm. The WB should take precedence. We will have no problem growing to the happy cap very quickly.

Really, what are peoples experience in the tests? I had no problem with barb navies... at all. I would be keen to take this route if others had no problem as well.

 

[Mesix]

I still think that capital is best served by having the extra food to produce settlers/workers early and run specialists later. The 2nd city can be our National Park/National Epic city feeding Great People back to the capital. I'm in favor of the tile 1N2E of the starting location. We get 2 corn, 1 fish, 3 forests, and 2 hills. There is a chance for more seafood off the eastern coast. Even without extra food, the corn and fish will give us ample food for our capital.

Build workboat>worker for the first turn set.

Research Agriculture>Mysticism>Masonry to start out.

See what the scout discovers and then plan for our 2nd and 3rd cities.

Keep the eye on the prize:
Short term goals to get 4-6 cities in the early game and build the Pyramids (Representation) and the Oracle (Civil Service).
Long term goals to use Liberalism for Biology and get a Naitonal Park/National Epic city with 15 or so Forest Preserves.

 

[Sweetacshon]

My feeling is that Mesix has the best plan. I just don't see the need for the wheel first off. Well, I'd love to save those movement turns, but higher priorities very early, I feel.

 

[WastinTime]

I hope you can find another heavily forested site with food support. One last point about the starting location...It's grassy under that forest making the tiles very workable. It'd be nice to work all those preserve tiles since you're taking the time to improve them. It will be hard to work them if it's plains or hills under the forests.

Good luck guys.

 

[greatbeyond]

I took the 2nd test game I posted a little while ago and added several Barb cities. I was undecided what Units they started with so I only added 1 Warrior per city.

I changed the terrain to reflect what we can see, and placed the Scout where he stopped.

Sweetachson can you post the save? I can do some better fog gazing with the save.

 

[Mesix]

I downloaded the new save and will play around with it a bit.

Thanks for takikng the time to make the test game GB.

 

[Simon_c]

Keep the eye on the prize:
Short term goals to get 4-6 cities in the early game and build the Pyramids (Representation) and the Oracle (Civil Service).
Long term goals to use Liberalism for Biology and get a Naitonal Park/National Epic city with 15 or so Forest Preserves.

in the test game i got beaten up by lots of barbs without the great wall. but gettiong the wall, oracle and the mids while still getting a 2nd city out will be tough..

but my gut feeling is that this is a good lace to settle. have city#2 for the national park.

i'll test the latest map and see how that plays out