SGOTM 09 - Fifth Element

[WastinTime]

You'll be lucky if the AI will trade anything. If they will, you'll have plenty to give them...Alpha, math, CoL, etc. You don't need Poly for trading. Normally you would want Poly to get to Lit (for GLib), but that is obsolete in this unusual game.

 

[Mesix]

Polytheism is worthless.

Every GS settlerd in the capital gets us 36 per turn with Oxford (and supporting science buildings) and Representation civic. If we settle them all, the capital will be producing 1,500+ by the end of the game when we need to tech the big SS techs. The NP city will also be producing close to 1K . Even in the early game it will take 1-2 turns off from techs that we could bulb to save 10 turns. That means that we earn back the turns the would have been "saved" from bulbing and continue to save more turns after about 7-8 techs. Settled GS also add 1 raw to the city which will help to build SS parts. Trust me here. The guys that are winning Minor Gauntlet 69 are settling their Great People. They guys who earn wooden spoons in the SGOTM will use them to bulb.

 

[BLubmuz]

You'll be lucky if the AI will trade anything. If they will, you'll have plenty to give them...Alpha, math, CoL, etc. You don't need Poly for trading. Normally you would want Poly to get to Lit (for GLib), but that is obsolete in this unusual game.

Yes, normally is in this way.
We're talkin'bout 20 beakers (twenty!) or 1 turn. If that turn make us avoid to trade classical techs for ancient techs, by trading Poly maybe together with other ancient techs, it will be very well spent.
Keep our opponents away from some techs is all at our advantage. Or we can trade those techs later, for more important ones.

@Sweeta
quick count, sir: a settled GS gives 6 raw beakers and 1 raw hammer. With Academy and library this means 10.5 beakers, at any research rate.
Philo is 801 beakers, or some 8 turns by the time we can research it. 801/10.5 after only 76 turns we'll even the gap.
True.
But those 8 turns can make the difference between win or lose.
The game, not a medal.
If we stay at 2 scientists 2nd GS (hopefully, he can be a GSpy) will pop on turn 54. Thus by turn 120, or a bit earlier (with a university) we'll even the 8 turns.
Let me see...
By turn 120 we can be researchin something we are researching in turn 120. So you're right, from then on it will be only gained beakers.
But what about have Lib 8 turns earlier and start the war (or counter attack) 8 turns earlier? What about conquered cities up and running 8 turns earlier?
What those 9-11 beakers mean when you have 15 cities? And are researching at 900beakers/turn? @40%

NOTHING

What 8 turns mean?
A lot. In any situation.

I can propose a compromise: save the 2nd GS for the most of Edu, settle the ones that will pop before turn 120.
Why 120? Which is our target?

 

[berserks01]

Blub, with your dotmap which city are we using for National Park and Oxford? I was thinking blue dot for it (which was updated to move 2W), with another city for the fish, rice, and cows.

 

[Mesix]

National Park sould be paired with National Epic to get the most great people from it. Oxford should be a separate city (maybe the capital) and the great people can settle there.

 

[BLubmuz]

Blub, with your dotmap which city are we using for National Park and Oxford? I was thinking blue dot for it (which was updated to move 2W), with another city for the fish, rice, and cows.

No fish city, it's a waste.
My Yellow will have crabs, wine and cows.
The Blue one, or the yellow. Slightly in favor of Blue.

I catch this answer for a note:
I'm playing a test.
Now i got 3 cities for total 11 population. Research @ 90%, -1gold/turn, 75 b/t (62.47 only from Launch Pad)
2nd GS popped (my usual luck) and gives 1027 beakers for Edu. Far better than Philo.
I'm on turn 63, researching Edu in 20 turns (1802 ) this would mean 1027/75= 14 (13.7) turns saved. I LB, and so we must do in the actual game.

National Park sould be paired with National Epic to get the most great people from it. Oxford should be a separate city (maybe sure the capital) and the great people can settle there.

Agreed!

 

[berserks01]

I updated the dot map like I mentioned.

So you don't like this? Your blue dot has 6 forest tiles, while this one has 9 ...

 

[BLubmuz]

I can (maybe) be convinced on settle GSs .
But ith 3 GSs settled i never arrived @ 1000 , even @100%
Maybe some 800.

Wooden spoon? i think this remembers me something
What a disaster that game. Sure not for LB, anyway .

Berserks, too much water to my taste for your yellow and purple.
And probably my yellow has 8 forests.
But let' wait for those.
For now i see we agree on white.

Poly opens also Mono, Med no. Has somebody mentioned OR? (not that i like the idea)
I'm still conviced poly has far more chances to be traded.

 

[WastinTime]

EDITED to include Academy:

The NatPark will be up and run for about 70 turns before you launch.
Let's assume you have a 10 forest city for it.

Case I: pair w/Oxford + Academy
70 turns * 6 beakers/specialist * 10 specialists * 150% (Ox+Acad) = 6300 beakers.

Case II: pair w/NatEpic
70 turns * 30 GPP = 2100 GPP
That's enough points for 1 more GS. All your GP will come a few turns earlier, so at best, it's like getting one free GS almost immediately. So, figure that for 70 turns:

70 * 36 (for settled GS in capitol) = 2520 beakers (plus the hammer)

With 15 forests it's even more tilted toward the Oxford pairing.

 

[Mesix]

Last time I checked, 2520+2100>4200.

Your math makes the Oxford separate argument stronger. Just 1 extra GS will make all the difference. The capital also has enough food and freshwater to be a really good GP farm. We should be able to run 7-10 scientists in the capital with CS.

 

[Mesix]

@ Blubz: 36 per turn means that every settled GS will be generating 1,000 every 28 turns (assuming the capital has Academy, Library, University, Oxford, Observatory, and Laboratory built and we run Representation). In Minor Gauntlet 69, I was settling 16+ GS (along with a few other GP). We should be able to generate 2-3 GP in this game if we run a SE in the capital, the NP city, and at least one additional city. Each of these cites should also be producing a generous amount of under Representation. The earlier we can run Representation (from the Pyramids) the stronger our SE will be and the faster our finish dae will be.

 

[WastinTime]

Last time I checked, 2520+2100>4200.

Your math makes the Oxford separate argument stronger.

Not sure you followed me. The 2100 GPP are not beakers. They give you (if you're lucky) 2520 beakers over 70 turns. It is far less than the 6300 beakers you get pairing Oxford+Academy with Natpark.

My original calculations didn't figure in the Academy (giving 4200 beakers instead of 6300).
That would make 2520 < 6300 !!!

 

[Mesix]

I suppose I could be convinced to put NE in the capital running a SE and Oxford with the NP. To be honest, I think the capital will be running just as many specialists from farms and food resources as the NP city, so it is somewhat a wash. The most important thing is that we plan for Oxford and settle our great people (especially GS) there.

I still to think that the capital is still the best location for Oxford. After Biology, all of the grassland tiles can be made into farms that produce 4 each. Add that to the (only one) Corn farm and the Fish and we should have a monster of a GP farm. Settling GP there will only add to its productivity.

 

[WastinTime]

Your capital is kinda screwed up with all those water tiles. That's a shame. One major feature of this unusual setup was the early preserves for a mammoth sized capitol...20+ specialists. My 2 corn test game had 16 forests after one or two grew. You guys could still get 8+ forest preserves in your capital with NP and Ox. I don't see many other cities that will get much more than 8+ forests unless you get some re-growth.

The sad thing is, you really need to chop those other forests to get 6 library+ 6 univ out for Oxford. I feel the capital was (and probably still is) the place for NP. You're going to build preserves there anyway for happiness, so it is just the ideal spot.

Can you start over and settle in place?

 

[BLubmuz]

My notes in this post are interesting. Especially since i saved only 11 turns from Edu.
The mechanic of this is not clear for me:
the numbers i gave on the above mentioned post are correct, so i'd have saved 14 turns. Why only 11?
Capital has 8 FP tiles, but it's polluted by the GW.
If we think running 10 or more scientists can avoid the risk of GSpies, we can go with OU and NP there.
We can also save 1 GS for an academy on the NP city, if we decide to build it somewhere south.

That minor gauntlet is an OCC. (i also took a look to the ranks)
Needless i remember the HUGE differences between an OCC and a normal game, no?

 

[Mesix]

The capital can have OU and GT. That way there will not be any unhappy and the grassland tiles can be farmed for GP.

In the area to the south, we can get a NP/NE city with 10-11 forest tiles.

 

[BLubmuz]

The capital can have OU and GT. That way there will not be any unhappy and the grassland tiles can be farmed for GP.

In the area to the south, we can get a NP/NE city with 10-11 forest tiles.

And if we build some FP early, there's the chance more forests pop.

I never built a theatre in my tests, but i think yours is not a good idea.
Sure, we can have lot of GPs and no unhappiness, but we lose production and commerce.

I built an Odeon in every city: it's cheap, and its benefits are huge.
Also as a first build in newly conquered cities.

Now i'm trying a test with Pyramids. Representation is great. Let's see how it works war-wise.

 

[WastinTime]

Another good point about the forest growth. In my test, I was constantly chopping and re-chopping forests growing just outside my capital's fat cross. With Bureaucracy's extra hammer boost, these forests are put to very good use.

 

[greatbeyond]

Play preview, Worker will build a Windmill on 1S1W and 1S1E, then he will head toward City 2 site

Warrior in 1,
then Warrior in 1 and Grow Slower or Warrior in 2 and grow faster, then Settler. I prefer the growth over production.

Finish Masonry, start Poly, finish Poly IBT T22 and T23, then PH

IBT T17 and T18 reach Pop 4 No matter what combination of tiles I work, I don't get Pop 4 on T17.

I'll play and upload the save in about 12 hrs, leaving time for comment.

 

[Mesix]

Why Poly???