SGOTM 09 - Fifth Element

[unclethrill]

As far as Vassals go, on that point, I agree with BLubz. Between the -4 and the eternal, "please give this city back to so and so", making Vassals is a bad Idea. That is why I think we need to concentrate on REXing out to how many cities we need and then use troops for Defense. This is a space race not a conquest. 4 or 5 troopers in each city will be enough to defend against any attacks especially with airports to move troops quickly. But a prolonged war ( or several from the sounds of it) will just slow us down in the long run I think

 

[BLubmuz]

I'm in favor of 6-10 cities at the end of the game...24-28 is overkill. It is better to have 6 good cities than 20 so/so cities. We can rage with our paratroopers, take over most of Hammy, and keep two or three good cities, and give him the crap cities back through diplomacy once he is our vassal.

Perhaps you missed this post of mine? There i demonstrate with numbers what a high numbers of cities means.

Numbers, not opinions.

6 cities? with Paras? try a test. I doubt you can arrive to launch.

But... i'll try it, with my usual 7 cities.
Why 7? it's a perfect number. Or else.

 

[WastinTime]

Yep, 20+ cities. All of the really great space games have huge empires. Even on a small map, there will be 20+ cities. Each city increases research. Having a ton of land gives you a ton of resources too. That gives you happy, health, and corporation boosters (Mining Inc). Then think about the statue of liberty....mmm.

 

[BLubmuz]

Yep, 20+ cities. All of the really great space games have huge empires. Even on a small map, there will be 20+ cities. Each city increases research. Having a ton of land gives you a ton of resources too. That gives you happy, health, and corporation boosters (Mining Inc). Then think about the statue of liberty....mmm.

WT, are you kidding?
- if so, it's not so clear (to me, ignorant stranger, at least)
- if not you deserve a kiss (well, not exactly, just to give the idea)

I've seen your post while trying a peaceful variant with 7 cities.
A disaster.
Not only i've been DoWed, but i suffer continous sabotages.
Lib for Bio, not rifling.

Have you seen this post ?

Statue of Liberty + 25 cities = 25 free specialists. If Engineers = 75 raw beakers each with only Lib + Uni = 112.5 beakers, at any research rate. With obs and lab = 150.

Growth is power!!!​

 

[WastinTime]

Not kidding.

I know I usually play OCC (with PA), but that is fast only on Deity.
These low difficulty space games must have a huge empire. Of course it works better on marathon (what doesn't?) You don't have many turns to grow. That 10-20 turns of city revolt after capture is just not fair on quick speed.

Now where exactly are you planting that kiss?

 

[BLubmuz]

Not kidding.

I know I usually play OCC (with PA), but that is fast only on Deity.
These low difficulty space games must have a huge empire. Of course it works better on marathon (what doesn't?) You don't have many turns to grow. That 10-20 turns of city revolt after capture is just not fair on quick speed.

Please don't call Monarch "low difficulty"!
First is medium, second raise it a level or 2 for quick, 3rd this map is out of any HoF map concept.
Seen by a HoF point of view is closer to Immortal than to Monarch, IMHO.

Now where exactly are you planting that kiss?

It's virtual. I think every usually exposed part can be good. Your ring perhaps?

Now, i just hope my present teammates keep in the right weight your unexpected help to my so-studied strategy.

 

[greatbeyond]

My Votes: See comments below.

1. MC can be done now.
2. City sites. I like Blubmuz's better, at least the two plotted. 1S of Iron and 1N of coastal cow. Decide on more/rest later.
3. No Calendar.

MC - Research it now or right after Paper. Either way save our current GS and the one that will come along as we finish researching MC and Paper. Use both GS to LB Education (heads exploding). Why? It saves 22 turns and 1802 beakers. At 9 turns per settled Scientist it will still take 100 turns (Less when adding University then Observatory modifiers) but probably still 60-80 turns. This speeds Paras by 16 turns (22t - 6T (MC))

Cities:
We can limit the number of cities we take. If there are any good Barb cities we should prioritize taking them. So far in every test the Barbs have settled 2S of the Cow location on the coast. I don't think we suffer any "yearning to rejoin the mother/father land." by Barbs. I'm not sure if we can gift cities once we have them.

Calendar:
In my latest test the AI researches it very early and it is easy to trade for.
If we keep up on our pace we can get Rifling, then go back to get Philo (4 turns on my last test) and Liberalism (7 turns ) then take Rocketry from Liberalism.

I suggest settling both cities before building Airports. I also suggest building the Colossus in the coastal cow city

 

[greatbeyond]

I had to revise the updated save I posted last night. As I was playing I discovered some issues with my hand editing of the WB file. I have corrected most of them that didn't require hours of editing. One thing you will note is that the test is one turn behind the same benchmarks in our actual game.
There was also an issue with giving WK and HC the exact same city placement. Also you'll find we have contact with Justinian. I just ignored him until I "explored" his territory. It should be a very close substitute for play-testing forward for a while.

I have also played it forward to T55 (T54 results in our actual game) trying to make sure I followed the exact same steps. To my dismay, I was able to find a couple of ways that would have shaved off a turn or two.

Edited: I had to make 2 little changes to resource locations to be accurate with the actual game.

 

[greatbeyond]

I just completed another quick test, Rifling done T91, following the path of MC, Paper, 2 turns on any tech, I used Philo (to get the 2nd GS, and wasting as few GS points as possible), Bulb all of Education, GP, Rifling. Hammi doesn't even have LBs yet. Got another GS or GE shortly after (depending on which specialists you run)

 

[Sweetacshon]

This team has a bi-polar disorder One TS with 2 person minimalism, and the next with 4-5 pages of detailed analysis. OK, so I'm back, and will need some time to digest all of this, but don't delay solely on my account, otherwise it'll take too long. A few points, tho. MC seems to be the majority vote. If we take Blub's city site (I'll need to study the 2 proposals before voting), of course we'd do better to not farm or even road those non forested tiles to aid forest growth. I have almost no directed experience with the NP - how much does it increase the chance of forest seeding? Calendar - I'm still against it (or at least against us researching it).

I am hearing negative opinions, especially from Blubmuz, about trading with AI/tech brokering and what not, and I want to voice my opinion. Trade, and yes, even give away, alphabet and other cheaper techs!! +4 fair trade bonus to stave of a DoW!!! The chance that the AI might actually have something good to trade by increasing their tech speed!!! We will outstrip the AI soon enough (already have) on monarch, especially with the paratrooper strat. <-- Also the reason not to fear Hammy getting techs (within reason). Does anyone else fear trading generously on Monarch space race? If so, why?

Nice to hear from you, DoomTrain!! From the army to the bank, eh? Which is the tougher environment, I wonder?

 

[Mesix]

TS played

Save File

Autolog

Spoiler :

Turn 55/330 (800 BC) [28-Apr-2009 10:39:01]
A Pasture was built near Athens
A Mine was built near The Launch Pad
Athens begins: Archer (3 turns)
The Launch Pad finishes: Settler
Athens finishes: Library
Attitude Change: Wang Kon(Korea) towards Huayna Capac(Inca), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'

Turn 56/330 (760 BC) [28-Apr-2009 10:40:25]
Attitude Change: Huayna Capac(Inca) towards Wang Kon(Korea), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Wang Kon(Korea) towards Huayna Capac(Inca), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'

Turn 57/330 (720 BC) [28-Apr-2009 10:41:17]
Tech learned: Metal Casting
Athens finishes: Archer
Attitude Change: Huayna Capac(Inca) towards Wang Kon(Korea), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Wang Kon(Korea) towards Huayna Capac(Inca), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'

Turn 58/330 (680 BC) [28-Apr-2009 10:41:47]
Athens begins: Forge (16 turns)
The Launch Pad begins: Forge (5 turns)
Sparta founded
Blubzville begins: Courthouse (27 turns)
Contact made: Russian Empire
Athens's borders expand
Attitude Change: Wang Kon(Korea) towards Stalin(Russia), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'

Turn 59/330 (640 BC) [28-Apr-2009 10:44:55]
A Mine was built near Blubzville
Athens grows: 3
Attitude Change: Stalin(Russia) towards Huayna Capac(Inca), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Stalin(Russia) towards Hammurabi(Babylon), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Huayna Capac(Inca) towards Wang Kon(Korea), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Wang Kon(Korea) towards Huayna Capac(Inca), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'

Turn 60/330 (600 BC) [28-Apr-2009 10:46:10]
Tech learned: Sailing
Blubzville's borders expand
Attitude Change: Wang Kon(Korea) towards Stalin(Russia), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'

Turn 61/330 (560 BC) [28-Apr-2009 10:47:33]
A Farm was built near The Launch Pad
The Launch Pad grows: 8
Judaism has spread: Blubzville
Attitude Change: Stalin(Russia) towards Huayna Capac(Inca), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'

Turn 62/330 (520 BC) [28-Apr-2009 10:48:25]

Session Turn Log

Spoiler :

Here is your Session Turn Log from 840 BC to 520 BC:

Turn 54, 840 BC: You have discovered Agriculture!
Turn 54, 840 BC: You have discovered Archery!
Turn 54, 840 BC: You have discovered Iron Working!
Turn 54, 840 BC: The Great Lighthouse has been built in a far away land!
Turn 54, 840 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.30) vs Pericles'sScout (1.50)
Turn 54, 840 BC: Combat Odds: 99.7%
Turn 54, 840 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 54, 840 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 54, 840 BC: Pericles's Scout is hit for 29 (71/100HP)
Turn 54, 840 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 13 (87/100HP)
Turn 54, 840 BC: Pericles's Scout is hit for 29 (42/100HP)
Turn 54, 840 BC: Pericles's Scout is hit for 29 (13/100HP)
Turn 54, 840 BC: Pericles's Scout is hit for 29 (0/100HP)
Turn 54, 840 BC: Barbarian's Archer has defeated Pericles's Scout!

Turn 55, 800 BC: You have trained a Settler in The Launch Pad. Work has now begun on The Pyramids.
Turn 55, 800 BC: You have constructed a Library in Athens. Work has now begun on a Archer.

Turn 57, 720 BC: You have discovered Metal Casting!

Turn 58, 680 BC: Blubzville has been founded.
Turn 58, 680 BC: The borders of Athens have expanded!

Turn 60, 600 BC: You have discovered Sailing!
Turn 60, 600 BC: The borders of Blubzville have expanded!

Turn 61, 560 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Blubzville!
Turn 61, 560 BC: Judaism has spread in Blubzville.

Turn 62, 520 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Blubzville!

I pretty much followed Blubmuz plan to the letter. The only change I made was to gift Alphabet to the three AI players (Korea, Inca, and Babylon) as Sweetacshon suggested. I thought this sounded like a good idea. Our relations are improevd and they are more likely to trade us the early techs that we are skipping.

 

[Mesix]

Here are a few screen shots.

We've met Stalin.

Spoiler :

The barbarian archer killed our scout and moved north towards our new city: Blubzville, named in honor of the city planner who performed the surey for the city site. After the Pasture was finished near Athens, I moved the worker down to help with the Iron mine. When I noticed the barbarian unit, I had both of the workers double back to mine the Uranium a safe distance away.

Spoiler :

I had the worker near our capital build a farm on the Corn when he finished the Copper mine. Next he can move to the west and finish the FP near Sparta. We may also want to chop a forest or two in the 3rd ring (cannot be worked) south of the capital to help finish the Pyramids.

Spoiler :

I managed to map a lot of the western continent. It would take several screen shots to show it all, so if you are interested in looking, just load the save file and have a look around. Make sure not to make any moves if you are looking at the map using the official save. Our Airship is in the Inca city of Tiwanaku awaiting new orders to continue scouting. I recommend that we trade Alphabet (or some other early tech) to Stalin for his map after we discover Paper. This will open up more cities that we can rebase our Airship in to scout further west. I think I may have forgotten to get open borders with Stalin, but that is easy enough to rectify on the next TS.

 

[BLubmuz]

City planner... bah

Some comment on your TS.
good:
- Settled GS
- Researched MC
- Started Forge in both LP and Athens

Bad:
- that corn farm is totally useless, for now. Does it helps Pyramids? I don't think so.
a windmill on the hill near LP needs 1 more turn and could be ready right after the forge, to max the chop. Then 2 workers will go in the forests S of LP to chop pyramids and settlers
- no modifications to the Espionage
- Why our workers have to be afraid of barbs? Can the barbs shoot while cleaning their weapons? Or it's just that savage smell ... oh my

So-so
maybe a worker in Athens when at size 3?

OK, now to plan next TS.

BTW what have i to do to persuade you guys about Calendar/MoM? Dance naked under the moon?
To be honest i'm afraid for the moment i'll propose to research Divine Right.

(...)Our Airship is in the Inca city of Tiwanaku awaiting new orders to continue scouting. I recommend that we trade Alphabet (or some other early tech) to Stalin for his map after we discover Paper. This will open up more cities that we can rebase our Airship in to scout further west. I think I may have forgotten to get open borders with Stalin, but that is easy enough to rectify on the next TS.

Evidently you don't know well the leaders: Stalin (aggressive) will never give us his WM if not pleased or friendly. Nor HC (former aggressive) some word about HC: he started Agg/Fin in Vanilla, then he became Fin/Ind in Warlords. But not a comma has changed in his stats. He's aggressive, but without the trait.
I think Wang will be our best trading partner for all the game.
We must think twice (or even more) before trade with HC. Only if we have big, big convenience.

BTW Mesix, i noticed this result of your superior strategy impressive. Astonishing.

 

[Mesix]

There is an Inca city near enouth to Stalin's borders that has not been discovered yet. On the next turn, we could scout that city location, then rebase the airship, and then scout further west. We will need open borders with Stalin to rebase the Airship in one of his cities which is probably necessary to circumnavigate.

On a side note...the Corn will help the capital to reach happy cap faster. It is also important to improve the Corn before we move the worker to another city for improvement. I guess I could have started chopping with him instead, but the Corn was screaming to be worked.

BTW, we don't have any escorts for the workers. That is why they are affraid of barbs.

 

[BLubmuz]

There is an Inca city near enouth to Stalin's borders that has not been discovered yet. On the next turn, we could scout that city location, then rebase the airship, and then scout further west. We will need open borders with Stalin to rebase the Airship in one of his cities which is probably necessary to circumnavigate.

On a side note...the Corn will help the capital to reach happy cap faster. It is also important to improve the Corn before we move the worker to another city for improvement. I guess I could have started chopping with him instead, but the Corn was screaming to be worked.

BTW, we don't have any escorts for the workers. That is why they are affraid of barbs.

You was, not them. Can i be damned if i escort workers with the GW.
Have you ever built the GW before?
Sure we need OB with Stalin.
I've seen he's not willing to sign.
Just give him fishing and wait 1 turn or 2.

But now we need to scout the island, the barb borders and south of blubz.
BTW can we move the Palace there? a great city with a great name.

 

[Mesix]

I forgot that we had the GW. I usually don't build it in many games, and it was not visible on the screen when the barbarian popped up near our worker. Sorry for the oversight.

 

[BLubmuz]

I forgot that we had the GW. I usually don't build it in many games, and it was not visible on the screen when the barbarian popped up near our worker. Sorry for the oversight.

NP, but that's only a minor problem.
Farm the corn instead of building the WM/chop is the bigger problem on your TS: this will delay Pyramids and Representation and can't be recover.
Dunno how you say it, here we say "useless cry on the squandered milk"

Then, let's see Unclethrill's TS:
No strategic decisions to be taken.
Just good use of workers. and chop.
What about my suggestion to stop the forge for a worker in Athens?
What about my proposal for the espionage?

Suggestions for workers:
the one now roading the corn can stop and WM
one can finish the mine, then go road 1N of wheat
the other on the uranium can go N to chop right outside LP BFC

I pretty much followed Blubmuz plan to the letter. The only change I made was to gift Alphabet to the three AI players (Korea, Inca, and Babylon) as Sweetacshon suggested. I thought this sounded like a good idea. Our relations are improevd and they are more likely to trade us the early techs that we are skipping.

I missed this one before. Do you went crazy? GIFT Alpha to the 3 AIs? Mainly to Hammu, we'll soon have his spies causing trouble. Sweeta suggested this, we never discussed. No hell, no! this mistake can cost us. More than you can think. oh sh1t

 

[BLubmuz]

no no no no no no no!!!​

In this way it doesn't work.
There's a plan posted on #3: it's the summary of the decisions we took.
A PPP can have more details and #3 can be varied.
But every one of us MUST follow what is posted there at the time he plays.

Otherwise i can't see why we spend time to discuss and post it.

Now
Am i the team captain, or leader, or anything you like?
Have i found a strategy which guarantees we can launch between turn 190-195?
Well, i do not accept more variations to my strategy, unless you can demonstrate yours can do better.
Not for the middle steps, but to the end.
I'm tired to repeat the same things, tests, test reports which you ever read.

You can say: this way it's not team work is something different.
Not true: many decisions can/must be discussed and the strategy improved.

But once posted the plans must be followed as best as a player can.

To you the decision. If the majority does not agree, i can leave the team.
Who disagree, if in minority can leave the team, or follow the majority.

 

[WastinTime]

We say "Don't cry over split milk".

I like the alphabet trade. Speed up the AI a bit, so they can help research and keep them happy.

Are you planning to run State Prop? If so, then you don't need wonders that reduce distance maint. (i.e. Div Right is not needed). Calendar is also a distraction. You can probably get MoM even if you trade for Cal.

 

[Mesix]

I followed everything in post #3. If something wasn't defined, I took the liberty to make an informed decision on my own to move the game forward. I'm sorry if I play a little differently than you. My decision to gift Alphabet to move the AI players along was based on a recomendation from another team member and experience that I have had in other games. Perhaps your unwillingness to trade/gift techs to AI players explains why you have trouble with DOW instead of being able to play a peaceful game when going for a SS victory. All of the AI players will have Alphabet soon enough with or without our help. By gifting it to them it improves diplo relations and also allows the AI players to research techs that we can trade for (which they will be more willing to trade with better diplo relations).

The worker functions were also not defined in your instructions. I finished the tasks that you had defined, and then had the workers start new tasks that were available to them. Building a corn farm will allow the capital to grow faster, run more specialists, and also increase production (by supporting more population, not the corn tile itself). All of these are benefits that will help us to progress.

I stand by both decisions as I know that they will benefit our game. There was no indication that anyone was against either of these decisions prior to me taking my TS. I guess I could have delayed another 5 days while we discussed further down to every last detail. I feel that I gave my turnset considerably more discussion time (5 days) than you did yours (12 hours). Who is the team player and who is the individual?

I will concede that I made the mistake of overlooking the GW when I moved the workers away from the barbarian unit. I will also concede that I didn't change any of the espinage settings as I was not focused on that MM aspect of the TS.