SGOTM 09 - Fifth Element

[Sweetacshon]

This one.

nobody cares me
i'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me

Queen, maybe? This man loves you, Blubz.

Argh, it's because you keep editing your posts, and I don't go back to read them.

Sweeta, i'm testing without researchin' Calendar.
But since i've tried to be less greedy in trade, i managed to trade for it.
Can i build the MoM?
So i anticipated the HS, with a detour to Theo.
I also almost gave Theo to Hammu, hoping he will build the AP.

OK, you can build your MoM if you finish all your homework first.

I recall someone bringing this up in the maint thread. Alan said that he's not going to change the mechanics of the site around just for this, or something to that effect, and that the honour system would be used. Let's face it, if people wanted to cheat, they could do so in many ways.

 

[unclethrill]

Let's face it, if people wanted to cheat, they could do so in many ways.

True that. As long as we don't, then win or lose, we can have a clear conscience.

 

[BLubmuz]

Damn Sweeta you choose the worst Freddie Mercury's picture i ever seen.

Alright, i found my thing about user statitics is already known. Forget it.
But be care on what you post in the first rows.

Greatbeyond, can you give a sign?
If we see nothing in 10 hours from now (21 GMT?), Simon is up.

 

[Simon_c]

OK. I should be able to post a PPP tonight if we don't hear anything form Greatbeyond.

The pic is of Freddie, not Brian !!!

 

[BLubmuz]

OK. I should be able to post a PPP tonight if we don't hear anything form Greatbeyond.

OK

The pic is of Freddie, not Brian !!!

Damn, i was still sleeping. Now i'll edit hoping no one else saw it.

 

[greatbeyond]

Wow, back to me again so soon! We are moving along quickly. I have been testing the revised test save I made, and have been contemplating another showing everything up to the latest turn.

What save have you been using for your tests Blubmuz?
With my first full run through I finished about 60 turns later than you using no MM and not many trades. I got Paras early and diminished Hammurabai and eliminated Joao. I had no idea what tech path to pursue so I wandered a little bit. Production in cities was a problem as there were only four good cities for quick SS parts, LP, Athens, Cow city, and one of Hammi's to the SW of the bend in the river along the coast. One of the disturbing things was that HC was close to a culture win and Korea launched a SS just before I did, using only three cities. It must have been only partially complete, for it didn't complete it's mission before I got there.

I have also been trying to analyze the tech path (using only the ones that are required for SS parts) to see what the most common/fastest root of the advanced techs is and plot a tech path.

I figured to post a plan perhaps tonight or Saturday morning (< 20 hours from this post (Saturday Evening there) and play 24 to 36 hours later. Posting the result by Monday morning (your time.) If this is too much time for anyone to wait, let me know. There are a lot of options and decision paths coming up.

I was also sorry to see somethings get done that weren't discussed which may have had a negative impact. Certainly if the active player doesn't get any guidance in a particular area, he/she is bound to miss something.
I'm going to try to have this PPP look more like Balthalion's PPPs of our last game.
IIRC the sections were:

Research/techs
Builds
City management
exploration
trading
demands
Great People
Wonders

So far the only suggestions I've seen are Blubmuz's. If everyone could give their thoughts and suggestions in the next 12 to 18 hours , I can review them and address the concerns in my PPP.

 

[BLubmuz]

(..)What save have you been using for your tests Blubmuz?
hm... a good one
With my first full run through I finished about 60 turns later than you using no MM and not many trades. I got Paras early and diminished Hammurabai and eliminated Joao.
That's why i'm the Captain
I had no idea what tech path to pursue so I wandered a little bit.
You haven't see the link to my post on #3? Production in cities was a problem as there were only four good cities for quick SS parts, LP, Athens, Cow city, and one of Hammi's to the SW of the bend in the river along the coast. One of the disturbing things was that HC was close to a culture win and Korea launched a SS just before I did, using only three cities. It must have been only partially complete, for it didn't complete it's mission before I got there.

Of course 60 turns later than me anything can happen. My last test was surely too lucky, but it can be a benchmark.
Actually Hammu can offer probably 2 good cities: Babylon and the one he surely will settle along the river: with a Levee it will be our powerhouse, with IW.
Still not know about actual Joao's terrain, but probably 2 good cities can be there too.

I have also been trying to analyze the tech path (using only the ones that are required for SS parts) to see what the most common/fastest root of the advanced techs is and plot a tech path.
See above

I figured to post a plan perhaps tonight or Saturday morning (< 20 hours from this post (Saturday Evening there) and play 24 to 36 hours later. Posting the result by Monday morning (your time.) If this is too much time for anyone to wait, let me know. There are a lot of options and decision paths coming up.

I was also sorry to see somethings get done that weren't discussed which may have had a negative impact. Certainly if the active player doesn't get any guidance in a particular area, he/she is bound to miss something.
I'm going to try to have this PPP look more like Balthalion's PPPs of our last game.
IIRC the sections were:

Research/techs
Builds
City management
exploration
trading
demands
Great People
Wonders

So far the only suggestions I've seen are Blubmuz's. If everyone could give their thoughts and suggestions in the next 12 to 18 hours , I can review them and address the concerns in my PPP.

Please consult my #3, i've put there some hints for your PPP.
I also hope you are satisfied with my demonstration about settle GS until turn 140 or so and with my thought about "early rifling not equals to early Paras in numbers".

Waiting your PPP for more comments.
I remember it only now: you can have 1 or even 2 settlers ready in your TS.
There's a GLHill in the southernmost part of the revealed land, 2 E of the FPlain, IIRC. IMO city #4 must go there.
Figure how to safely escort/fogbust the settler (archer from Blubz?) and better scout (airship?) in time to see if it's a good location. Road needed.
Can you imagine why i propose this as city #4?
City #5 can go 2W of rice, or just invert the order to be safer for movements.

Last: if Joao asks a not too big tech, gave him. But no gifts. No more gifts, to anyone, unless early techs.

 

[Simon_c]

I'm fine with waiting. I'll expect to get the save some time Monday to post a PPP late Monday evening (somewhere around midnight UK time)

 

[BLubmuz]

About cities placement:
City #4 (or #5) On the GLHill 2W of FPlains to block Joao.
City #5 (or #4) 2W of rice. NP/NE city.
City #6 island. Furs+Whales makes it a no brainer: Whales+Oil+Fur in BFC.
City #7 Somewhere on the Rockies, if some food will be discovered, to block Hammu.
City #8 1N of Cows

More cities we'll build, less fight for our Paras, faster wars, more Paras.
I think with some 25-30 Paras we can conquer all the continent in 20-25 turns with some pause. Then develop/launch in 50 turns.
Aim: Continent owned by turn 145.
My best attempt:
Hammu: started turn 113, peace turn 124 (4 techs estorted, then he vassallized to Joao, cancelling the Peace Treaty)
Hammu: started turn 127, out turn 129 (only 2 cities to conquer)
Joao: started turn 127, out turn 146
Launched turn 187. But i doubt we can be so lucky.
If you're interested, i can post the Autolog.

City #09 to 15??? Former Babylon
City #16??? to 24??? Former Portugal

I posted a map from one of my numberless tests hereGuaranteed: any city can build a SS Casing in 4-5 turns during a GAge with Factory, Lab and power from the 3GD. Some even in 3. The powerhouses? Dunno, they've better to do.

 

[BLubmuz]

There's another thing we must discuss:
i know it's strange to hear this from me, but...
If we complete the Pyramids and revolt to Repr.,

Is it worth considering to revolt in the same turn to slavery?

In this way we can put the Courthouses as first build in any new city and whip them.
No whips in LP (or 1 max), but 2 sci + 1 eng is the max it can afford for awhile.
Then, we can revolt back to Caste right after Lib, together with FR.

Usually (in my tests) i revolt to FR in my first GAge, but i'm not sure if some 20 turns or more with +10% lost worth the waiting.

Remember that the +10% applies to the base commerce and to the specialists not to the overall science output.

I already tested that even with 8 cities a revolt up to 3 differnt civics still costs 1 turn. Rest assured on this.

Edit: i've run a short test on this, and the benefits are really poor.
Not enough food to grow fast (due to lack of workers/resources), not enough production.
No, we can save too few turns compared to the we can't have in LP.
But i think that CHs as first build are a good thing.

 

[Mesix]

I also hope you are satisfied with my demonstration about settle GS until turn 140 or so and with my thought about "early rifling not equals to early Paras in numbers".

If this is true, then why don't we go with WT suggestion to use Liberalism to pop Biology?

 

[BLubmuz]

If this is true, then why don't we go with WT suggestion to use Liberalism to pop Biology?

We need Eng and Chem. Probably Eng will not be tradeable by the time we need it. This means we'll need some 12 or more turns to get there. Plus other 10-12 for rifling, putting us to have Paras around turn 125-130, when i usually have already wiped Hammu.
Another option can be self-research rifling, then maybe we can trade for Eng and research chem. Much will depend on how far our opponents will be from Edu/Philo by then.

The problem is NOT self-research rifling, since it needs some 5-6 turns more than Lib, but being SURE to win the Lib Race.

Third option: Lib for Electricity. Even if it needs only 3-4 turns after our empire is fully developed it can be a good choice.

Unless we are attacked. Too soon to decide on this, but some discussion is useful to explore alternate routes.

 

[greatbeyond]

Research:
Boost research to 90%, finish Education. I would try to repeat my argument for LB (Paras on turn ~90) but I haven't seen any other support for it.

Civics:
Revolt to Rep and OR if we can get it in trade

Builds:
LP
finish Pyramids (3T), Anarchy (1T), Settler (1T), XB (1T), XB (1T), Settler (1T)
XBs are protection for our Settlers. I had considered Maces, but the XBs are better for defense. We could do the Settlers back to back.

Athens
Forge (4T, after growing to Pop 4 and working Marble)
Granary (5T, to promote faster growth)
or
Aquaduct(7T, pre-req to build HG)

Sparta
CH (3T), Granary (6T at pop 2)

City MM:
LP
Cu, Fish, WMx3, FP, Corn. As we grow to the happy cap, we'll add the 2 FP,

Athens
Sheep, FP, WM. At pop4, add Marble; pop 5 add FGL

Sparta
Iron. At pop 2 work Wheat, pop 3, add Cows

Exploration
T1 -Airship to city NW of Novogrod. You do not have to be able to see the city to transfer there. As you mouse over the area, the city square will flash green , even if in the fog.
T2 - Scout West from there
T3 - South
T4 - Airship to Sparta
T5 - Scout to East and provide air cover for the Settler
T6 to T8 - Scout out Joao

Trading
When the other AIs will trade;
Try to trade for Calendar and Construction, Using Currency first, then CoL. We have already given away Currency to Korea so we should get some more use out of it.

Demands
We can afford to give away some minor techs to Hammi and Joao to keep good relations.
We can spurn anyone on the other continent for now, or give them minor techs when demanded (my preference)

Spurn all demands for big techs, CoL, CS, MC

Great People
1T in LP:
GS - settle
GSpy - GA (now or later, I favor now)
GE - pop U of S in Sparta or Athens OR save to pop
the Colossus in Cow city. It does not make
sense to save him 50 turns for Mining Inc. We
could use him for LBing a tech , but I don't favor
that.
When we reach Pop 12 in LP, switch off Corn to a GS. It will earn us 22 GPP per turn.

Wonders

U of S
Colossus - we'll need a Forge in Cow city for this
HG - this may actually get done before the Colossus
Chichen Itza - I don't like the GP pollution but it may be
worth it for the +25% city defense

Worker actions:
W1 - currently on Wheat in Sparta. Finish, then pasture Cows.
W2 & W3 - currently chopping 3S of LP. then Road 2S1W, then 3S2W. Create a path to Cow city.
OR
Road S of Sparta toward the city site 2S of Iron
W4 - go to 2W of LP , chop Forest so we can irrigate. We need Athens to have more food
OR
irrigate 3S1W of LP, then chop/irrigate 2S2W

I'll talk about city sites in the next post.

 

[Mesix]

I like most of what you posted in your PPP. My only criticism is all the wonders that you want to build. We would be better served building Research when cities have idle time between necessary infrastructure. We need to research fast up to the space age and then build fast to finish the SS parts. Many of the wonders are unnecessary distractions that will ultimately delay our end goal if we pursue them.

I like the idea of getting PT on turn 90 if we can actually support building some units at that time. The early we get advanced units, the faster the war with Hammy (seems like that is the majority concensus) will be.

 

[Sweetacshon]

Damn Sweeta you choose the worst Freddie Mercury's picture i ever seen.

No use denying that he was a raving fruitcake. Great musician, tho.

Is it worth considering to revolt in the same turn to slavery?

I wouldn't have thought we had the food for it, but it may be worth a chop or 2 for CHs.

re: lib - I imagine we'll be well ahead of everyone, and I'd prefer biology, but we do need to ramp up for paras, so...??... what about using one of those GS on lib for bio while self researching rifling? I dunno, haven't checked it at all, just thinking aloud.

Looks like I xposted with the PPP.. I'll need more time to check it.

 

[Mesix]

Settle GS...do not bulb!

 

[greatbeyond]

City sites suggested by Blubmuz

I changed the numbers to letters so that we can order them without getting confused by the numbers.

"About cities placement:
Site D (or #5) On the GLHill 2W of FPlains to block
Joao.
Site E (or #4) 2W of rice. NP/NE city.
Site F island. Furs+Whales makes it a no brainer:
Whales+Oil+Fur in BFC.
Site G Somewhere on the Rockies, if some food will
be discovered, to block Hammu.
Site H 1N of Cows"

Site D - Do you mean 2E of the FP? I like 2S of
the Iron (Plains along the river)

My preferred order of settling cities
Site D
Site E
Site H
Site F

Discussion please....

I'll plan on checking the forum tonight and in the morning. Then posting any changes clarifications by Sunday afternoon (about 24 hrs from now, and playing about 12 hrs after that. Posting the results Monday morning.

 

[greatbeyond]

The Wonders are proposed for specific purposes. We don't have to build any of them. They were proposed if we get a GE.

U of S - 2 GS points per turn and increased research
Colossus - increased income to counter city costs and to keep research up.
HG - 2GE ppt,+1 pop in each city, and more health
CI - I personally don't think it's necessary and I don't like the GP pollution.

Paras ~T90. This is only possible if we LB Ed. In LP they will be produced every 2T at current production rates

 

[BLubmuz]

Research:
Boost research to 90%, finish Education. I would try to repeat my argument for LB (Paras on turn ~90) but I haven't seen any other support for it.
No you have seen motivated and demonstrated cons to that.

Civics:
Revolt to Rep and OR if we can get it in trade
I doubt you can do it in time. The only way is to detour our research.
But OR is expensive, too. No. Revolt to Rep only ASAP.

Builds:
LP
finish Pyramids (3T), Anarchy (1T), Settler (1T), XB (1T), XB (1T), Settler (1T)
XBs are protection for our Settlers. I had never considered Maces, but 'cause the XBs are better for defense. We could do the Settlers back to back. No settler will travel unescorted, but pre-fogbusted by my archer from Blubz
I recommended an airport before the settlers: it can be done in 4-5 turns with chopping and a settler needs over 2 turns to arrive in Blubz. This way, even with delay on settlers, they can be near the target sooner. This is true for 3 settlers out of 5, thus it will pay for itself, even not considering the benefits to research.

Athens
Forge (4T, after growing to Pop 4 and working Marble) Worker, please when we hit s.4
Granary (5T, to promote faster growth)OK, but see above
or
Aquaduct(7T, pre-req to build HG) see below

Sparta
CH (3T), Granary (6T at pop 2)Archer, right now, then what you propose

City MM:
LP
Cu, Fish, WMx3, FP, Corn. As we grow to the happy cap, we'll add the 2 FP,
Right, but ALWAYS 2Sci+1Eng at work
Athens
Sheep, FP, WM. At pop4, add Marble; pop 5 add FGL

Sparta
Iron. At pop 2 work Wheat, pop 3, add Cows

Exploration
T1 -Airship to city NW of Novogrod. You do not have to be able to see the city to transfer there. As you mouse over the area, the city square will flash green , even if in the fog.
T2 - Scout West from there
T3 - South I doubt: you'll prolly need another city, recon from there. If not, reebase in Sparta immediately, we must recon south.
T4 - Airship to Sparta
T5 - Scout to East and provide air cover for the Settler
T6 to T8 - Scout out Joao

Trading
When the other AIs will trade;
Try to trade for Calendar and Construction, Using Currency first, then CoL. We have already given away Currency to Korea so we should get some more use out of it.
Yeah, but be care. There can be also Monarchy sooner rather than later

Demands
We can afford to give away some minor techs to Hammi and Joao to keep good relations. Give Joao PH
We can spurn anyone on the other continent for now, or give them minor techs when demanded (my preference)

Spurn all demands for big techs, CoL, CS, MC

Great People
1T in LP:
GS - settle
GSpy - GA (now or later, I favor now) Damn, with 3 cities? i was wondering to use it Right after Lib, to speed Paras.
GE - pop U of S in Sparta or Athens OR save to pop
the Colossus in Cow city. It does not make
sense to save him 50 turns for Mining Inc. We
could use him for LBing a tech , but I don't favor
that. We can't bet we'll have a second GE. 1 GE MUST be kept for Mining Inc. If we're so lucky to pop a second one, he will build an half of SoL
When we reach Pop 12 in LP, switch off Corn to a GS. It will earn us 22 GPP per turn.

Wonders

U of S 1) we don't have a religion, nor we'll have it. 2) needs stone. 3) we have better to do
Colossus - we'll need a Forge in Cow city for this Well wait to have the city
HG - this may actually get done before the Colossus
Chichen Itza - I don't like the GP pollution but it may be
worth it for the +25% city defense With Rifling it obsoletes. Useless

Worker actions:
W1 - currently on Wheat in Sparta. Finish, then pasture Cows. Then build a road in the forest E of wheat: that city 2W of rice will need it, more than Blubz the cows
W2 & W3 - currently chopping 3S of LP. then Road 2S1W, then 3S2W. Create a path to Cow city. this is very good, but after chopped even the leaves
OR
Road S of Sparta toward the city site 2S of Iron correct in "the city on the GLHill" and it's perfect
W4 - go to 2W of LP , chop Forest so we can irrigate. We need Athens to have more food Very good. Possibly after calendar, while building MoM
OR
irrigate 3S1W of LP, then chop/irrigate 2S2W

I'll talk about city sites in the next post.

City sites suggested by Blubmuz

I changed the numbers to letters so that we can order them without getting confused by the numbers.

"About cities placement:
Site D (or #5) On the GLHill 2W of FPlains to block
Joao. See above. Recon first Extreme SE from Blubz.
Site E (or #4) 2W of rice. NP/NE city.
Site F island. Furs+Whales makes it a no brainer:
Whales+Oil+Fur in BFC.
Site G Somewhere on the Rockies, if some food will
be discovered, to block Hammu.
Site H 1N of Cows"

Site D - Do you mean 2E of the FP? I like 2S of
the Iron (Plains along the river) See above, again

My preferred order of settling cities
Site D
Site E
Site H
Site F

Discussion please.... Alphabetical order, please

I'll plan on checking the forum tonight and in the morning. Then posting any changes clarifications by Sunday afternoon (about 24 hrs from now, and playing about 12 hrs after that. Posting the results Monday morning.

The Wonders are proposed for specific purposes. We don't have to build any of them. They were proposed if we get a GE. See above. If i wish the colossus i can build in 2 turns with chopping in LP. No immediate benefits, we're working too few water tiles. Gene pollution.

U of S - 2 GS points per turn and increased research
Colossus - increased income to counter city costs and to keep research up.
HG - 2GE ppt,+1 pop in each city, and more health would be nice, too long to build. anyone has already Math. We don't need to lose a wonder for money
CI - I personally don't think it's necessary and I don't like the GP pollution. see above

Paras ~T90. This is only possible if we LB Ed. In LP they will be produced every 2T at current production rates

already posted about this. First we need a GS next, second LP will still producing settlers, workers and structures in that turn. Anyway a Para will need 3 turns, no less. Only in GAge you can build in less than 2 turns (2 in 3 t.)

We need structures and workers, workers, workers
A good and well detailed PPP. Sorry for the critics, but of course we got 24 hours to discuss.

 

[BLubmuz]

Can we consider a city S of the one i proposed in the GLHill?

If the answer is "maybe, but we need to recon first", then the site 2S of iron is better.
In case, we can delay the decision after GB's TS.

If we agree on the airport first, he have no time for settle 2 cities in his TS. Maybe to build the settler and airlift in city #4, the one 2W of rice... Yellowstone, maybe?

In this way we'll have also full knowledge of the map (at least for the city sites), no need to hurry an important decision.

Consider this, with the airport:
city #4: airlift the settler in Blubz, if roaded 1 turn to the spot.
city #5: arilift the settler in #4, 2 turns to the spot without road, coastal.
city #6: arilift the settler in #5, 3 turns to the spot without road, coastal, probably.
city #7 (Rockies, if it's worth): arilift the settler in Blubz, 3 turns to the spot without road, coastal, probably.
Then Island and cows, in that order.

This way the airport is more than payed in terms of turns saved on settling.
Our research will suffer, but we'll recover shortly.