SGOTM 09 - Fifth Element

Simon_c · Jun 2, 2009

Here's my PPP, and it's late, so I'll look at responses tomorrow.

I've probably missed some things from the thread, so I need to back through that too.

Research:
Printing Press (1) Constitution (3) democracy (4)

City management:
LP to run at least 4 sci + eng.
Check cities just come out of revolt to only hire the correct number of artists for 1 turn border pop. Others to sci
MM to check no spies and no non-improved tiles working when improved tiles are there. Check no unhappy.

Exploration:
Do we need/want any spies ? I'm thining for keeping an eye on the Als and on the atlantians. Especially once we see Apollo projects completed. If we do want spies, then securing a barb city in Europe will be great to air-lift them there.

No new cities to build.

Demands: Everybody can go away, except shaka who can have minor techs

trades: I notice music Is available from wang for baking and a little gold. (or if we give him 510 gold). Could be worth it to get a cathedral or two for the 2 :hammers:

Or maybe not worth it due to WFYABTA ?

Wonders:
Do we have any idea where we want wall St ?
Moai in Faro, although I think sparta could you use it well too. 9 squares in Faro, and 7 in sparta.
Forbidden palace in Joao's area ?

Builds
LP: Finish Oxford (3), Finish Para (2)
Athens : Para (2) Courthouse(3)
Bulbz: Para(1). Jewish Temple(2). Bank (4)
Pindus: National Park (6)
Spata: Frigate, Frigate, frigate. (do we want to slip a customs house in here ? )
Panama: Para (2). Bank(5)
NewYork: Para (1). bank (5) Workboat (when frigate arrives)
Vancouver: Lighthouse (1). bank (4)

gold: and :happy: )
Greenland: Lighthouse(1) Bank(7)
Opis: Courhouse (6)
Nippur: Para(3) Jewish Temple(3)
Babylon: Jewish Temple, (1) Courthouse (2) Library (1) University (2) I know this is a production
city, but do we have anything to produce ? Won't these multipliers apply if we build raw beakers while we wait for other things to produce ?
Akkad: Harbour (3). Customs House ?
Dur-Kurigalzu: Jewish Temple (2): Bank(6)
Borsippa: Forge (2). Courthouse(8)
Sippar: Forge (5). Granary(4)
Barga: Courthouse (16)
Faro: Courthouse
Leiria: Courthouse
Braganza: Forge. Courthouse.

Workers / Improvements.
I'll try to add this tomorrow daytime.

Now to the war plan:.

Scout with airship from Braga to light up area around Guimaries and maybe coimbra. (could really do with another airship or two IMO)
Airdrop 4 paras from Braga to 1N of Guimaries. Will not fall this turn, as can't get enough troops there. Do we let them sit in the woods and get bombarded ? Will they still be able to take the last defender (or two) on turn 3? Or do we wait for more paras to get to the front, and have getter odds.
4 defenders in coimbra and oporto. Same question. Do we wait and attack with 4 attackers, or go now with 3 and know it will take an extra turn of getting hit by airships ?

T1, paras from Faro and leiria jump to Coimbra, take on t2. Heal on t3, jump to Oporto on t4, take on t5.
Airlift fresh para into faro.

Mesix · Jun 2, 2009

Wall Street in LP...right?

Joao shouldn't take long to eliminate. Make sure to target his big cities first and mop up the others later. We don't need him getting riflemen while we are at war.

BLubmuz · Jun 3, 2009

Mesix said:
Wall Street in LP...right?

Joao shouldn't take long to eliminate. Make sure to target his big cities first and mop up the others later. We don't need him getting riflemen while we are at war.

Right for the war even if i think he will go for MS (AI is stupid).
Right for WS. I think we must build some Bank ASAP in our most productive cities.

I'm still not sure about Sushi, so maybe we can wait for some test before decide what to do with NP in Pindus (i mean, if run sci or merc).

If we pop a GS, we probably can use him to LB Elec. We're some 50 turns from the end. Even considering his best use (settle in LP) we can have 27 (9 raw :science:

*3)*50 turns=1350 beakers. If we wait to LB until we start researching Elec and probably we'll have some big portuguese city by then (i suggest to go for Corps after Demo) he can bulb over 1500 :science:

.
Even if we consider to build an academy in Pindus, supposing 9 sci at work =54 raw :science:

added to some commerce we can have some 30-35 added beakers. *50 turns=1500-1750.
Arriving to Elec 2 turns earlier, will add 1 :gold:

to any windmill and watermill and this means some 50 raw :gold:

in all the empire. for 2 turns and having a key tech researched earlier, better LB.

I'll comment later on the PPP. This decision and the one for Sushi has to be taken before Simon starts.

Simon_c · Jun 3, 2009

OK. I'm holding then.

It will give me a chance to update the PPP with worker actions.
I'm not too sure if my war plans are the best either.
It will only give two minor cities in my TS, but hopefully will take out Joao's navy and airbase.

Mesix · Jun 3, 2009

BLubmuz said:
Right for the war even if i think he will go for MS (AI is stupid).
Right for WS. I think we must build some Bank ASAP in our most productive cities.

I'm still not sure about Sushi, so maybe we can wait for some test before decide what to do with NP in Pindus (i mean, if run sci or merc).

If we pop a GS, we probably can use him to LB Elec. We're some 50 turns from the end. Even considering his best use (settle in LP) we can have 27 (9 raw *3)*50 turns=1350 beakers. If we wait to LB until we start researching Elec and probably we'll have some big portuguese city by then (i suggest to go for Corps after Demo) he can bulb over 1500 .
Even if we consider to build an academy in Pindus, supposing 9 sci at work =54 raw added to some commerce we can have some 30-35 added beakers. *50 turns=1500-1750.
Arriving to Elec 2 turns earlier, will add 1 to any windmill and watermill and this means some 50 raw in all the empire. for 2 turns and having a key tech researched earlier, better LB.

I'll comment later on the PPP. This decision and the one for Sushi has to be taken before Simon starts.

Windmills produce :commerce:

not

.

greatbeyond · Jun 3, 2009

The previous turn and plans looked good. I haven't gotten time to analyze Simon's PPP yet. Hopefully a little later today.

Mesix, I think I know what you're saying but I better ask anyway:

This; :commerce:

is the calculated value of each gold generated
This; :gold:

is the raw value, ie... a tile has a value of 1 gold, but after modifiers are factored in, it's commerce might be "2" where you have a Grocer (+25%), Market (+25%), and Bank (+50%)

I guess the other question is, are Windmills different from other improvements in this respect?

or do I have the theory right but the terms reversed?

If we can wait, Blubmuz's idea of stockpiling any great people until we get the higher population (for more Beakers/Hammers/commerce based on pop.) is a good idea.

BLubmuz · Jun 3, 2009

Mesix said:
Windmills produce not .

Just forget the correct sintax for the :commerce:

(i do not like to search, usually i use my memory) :blush:

greatbeyond said:
The previous turn and plans looked good. I haven't gotten time to analyze Simon's PPP yet. Hopefully a little later today.

Mesix, I think I know what you're saying but I better ask anyway:

This; is the calculated value of each gold generated
This; is the raw value, ie... a tile has a value of 1 gold, but after modifiers are factored in, it's commerce might be "2" where you have a Grocer (+25%), Market (+25%), and Bank (+50%)

I guess the other question is, are Windmills different from other improvements in this respect?
as you see, it was just a mistake using smilies
or do I have the theory right but the terms reversed?
Windmills and watermills gain 1 with electricity (maybe the watermills gain 2? or viceversa? i haven't the game open) only in this respect they differ from other improvements
If we can wait, Blubmuz's idea of stockpiling any great people until we get the higher population (for more Beakers/Hammers/commerce based on pop.) is a good idea.

This trick is useful, since the LB adds to a base the empire population (IIRC 3 :science:

added foy any empire pop point).
Similar a GE, which contributes to a building with a base which will be added to the city population (IIRC 30 :hammers:

added for any city pop point). edit:verified, probably depends on game speed: actually it gives 19 for an added pop point.
Now i try some tests, so i can pop with some opinion. Nothing at the present. i'll also clarify the mills thing.

BLubmuz · Jun 3, 2009

Ectricity gives +1 to windmills and +2 to watermills
After the fall of Portugal, a GS can LB 1549 for Electricity.

Best candidates for Moai:
Evora, but we must wait longer
Borsippa (probably the best after Evora)
Sippar
Panama or Vancouver, but they have already good production
Braga
Faro, see Panama

no time for try also Sushi. We're exporting fish and crabs for luxuries and we must wait for Broadway to cancel and change the trades.
In what cities are we thinking to spread it? LP, Pindus and ???
It should give 8-9 food, but it's costly.
Remember that spread a corp costs, it's not free like a religion.

War

Spoiler :

I will not give the building queues for any city, just this:
complete the paras where we already put hammers on them.
then, in the Jewish cities, build jewish temples, then the cheapest buildings, mostly markets after libraries.
Build banks in our most productive cities.
NYC will switch to a WB, Panama will build 2: one for itself and one for Braganza.
Move the frigate to protect the net in NYC.
Vancouver needs an odeon.
Replace some farms around Nippur with watermills, it must not grow past 17.

Research: you'll not arrive to complete Demo in your TS, keep the rate as is.

Try to grow Blub, we'll build the SoL there. There're 4 forests to chop outside the BFC once we'll start the SoL.
Change the queue in Leiria to granary, it needs to grow.

If you capture a city without forge, start it.

Sweetacshon · Jun 3, 2009

Sorry if I've been a bit inactive this week. It's been busy, and to make things worse (actually, that's not quite right, it'll be fun) I'm off to Sydney this weekend to watch some rugby. In addition, Aus plays Italy the following weekend, so get ready for some smug mode from me, you crazy mediterraneans.

In any case, I won't be able to add much, but considering the Oxford situation, I've got nothing to add now, anyway, right?

The PPP looks ok to me. Techs're straight forward, lots of banks=good, War looks ok - no need to build any more units, by the sounds of it, unless the enemy is better than we suspect. Having a few in queues is ok, and in fact is a good precaution. I'd recommend switching to buildings when you feel comfortable and not necessarily finishing the paras. Also, of course, no need for other MP units, paras will do fine. Personally, I don't see us doing any further warring after this.

Regardless of the tests, it feels intuitively that we're around that point where settling GPs falls below other uses, and we have ones for GAs, so bulb is all thats left. I'm happy with that. It also raises the point about certain buildings, tho. When is it not worth building a forge, for instance? This one's not so intuitive, and I find it really hard to just build wealth when there's buildings not present in a city. But as that grand master of MMing, WT, taught me, this is probably what we should be doing - I'm not certain of the timing, tho.

Mesix · Jun 4, 2009

greatbeyond said:
The previous turn and plans looked good. I haven't gotten time to analyze Simon's PPP yet. Hopefully a little later today.

Mesix, I think I know what you're saying but I better ask anyway:

This; is the calculated value of each gold generated
This; is the raw value, ie... a tile has a value of 1 gold, but after modifiers are factored in, it's commerce might be "2" where you have a Grocer (+25%), Market (+25%), and Bank (+50%)

I guess the other question is, are Windmills different from other improvements in this respect?

or do I have the theory right but the terms reversed?

If we can wait, Blubmuz's idea of stockpiling any great people until we get the higher population (for more Beakers/Hammers/commerce based on pop.) is a good idea.

The difference between :commerce:

and

is that

becomes

or

(or even

or

) based on how you run the slider. Tiles produce :commerce:

and not

. Shrines produce :gold:

and the bonus from the Spiral Minirat produces :gold:

. These values are not adjustable with your economic sliders.

The real difference comes with how you run your economy. If you are running the slider for high :science:

then building markets, grociers, and banks will have no effect on your :commerce:

as they modify the production of :gold:

. When running a high :science:

economy slider off from the income of :commerce:

tiles, it is best to build libraries, universities, etc. :commerce:

only becomes :gold:

when the economic sliders are set lower.

In short, as our economy recovers and we raise our :science:

rate on the economic slider, we will get less return on investiment for any markets, banks, etc. that we build.

Simon_c · Jun 4, 2009

Revised PPP

I'd still like some feedback on trades, and exploration.

Research:
Printing Press (1) Constitution (3) democracy (4)

City management:
LP to run at least 4 sci + eng.
Opis has some cottages around it. Do we keep them or farm them ?

Check cities just come out of revolt to only hire the correct number of artists for 1 turn border pop. Others to sci
MM to check no spies and no non-improved tiles working when improved tiles are there. Check no unhappy.

Exploration:
Do we need/want any spies ? I'm thining for keeping an eye on the Als and on the atlantians. Especially once we see Apollo projects completed. If we do want spies, then securing a barb city in Europe will be great to air-lift them there.

No new cities to build (this TS) but there's some space in the north for a couple of filler cities. Do we want them or not ?

Demands: Everybody can go away, except shaka who can have minor techs

trades: I notice music Is available from wang for baking and a little gold. (or if we give him 510 gold). Could be worth it to get a cathedral or two for the 2 Or maybe not worth it due to WFYABTA ?

Wonders:
Do we have any idea where we want wall St ?
Moai in Faro, although I think sparta could you use it well too. 9 squares in Faro, and 7 in sparta.
Forbidden palace in Joao's area ?

Builds
LP: Finish Oxford (3), Finish Para (2)
Athens : Para (2) Bank. Courthouse(3)
Bulbz: Para(1). Jewish Temple(2). Bank (4)
Pindus: National Park (6)
Spata: Frigate, Frigate, frigate. (do we want to slip a customs house in here ? )
Panama: Para (2). Bank(5)
NewYork: Para (1). bank (5) Workboat (when frigate arrives)
Vancouver: Lighthouse (1). bank (4) ( and :happy: )
Greenland: Lighthouse(1) Bank(7)
Opis: Courhouse (6)
Nippur: Para(3) Jewish Temple(3)
Babylon: Jewish Temple, (1) Bank. Courthouse (2)
Akkad: Harbour (3). Customs House ?
Dur-Kurigalzu: Jewish Temple (2): Bank(6)
Borsippa: Forge (2). Courthouse(8)
Sippar: Forge (5). Granary(4)
Barga: Courthouse (16)
Faro: Courthouse
Leiria: Courthouse
Braganza: Forge. Courthouse.

Workers / Improvements.
Nothing specific here. Preserve forests, mill hills.

Now to the war plan:.
Follow Bulbz' plan. :bowdown:

BLubmuz · Jun 4, 2009

Mesix said:
The difference between and is that becomes or (or even or ) based on how you run the slider. Tiles produce and not . Shrines produce and the bonus from the Spiral Minirat produces . These values are not adjustable with your economic sliders.

The real difference comes with how you run your economy. If you are running the slider for high then building markets, grociers, and banks will have no effect on your as they modify the production of . When running a high economy slider off from the income of tiles, it is best to build libraries, universities, etc. only becomes when the economic sliders are set lower.

In short, as our economy recovers and we raise our rate on the economic slider, we will get less return on investiment for any markets, banks, etc. that we build.

Correct. The only thing is that we'll never be able to go past 60-70% for research, except around the final rush, when almost everything becomes negligible.

Now i'll try to write down some calculations about Sushi, hoping make things clear for me first, and for the team.

Let's suppose to spread it to: LP, Pindus, Blub, Athens. 4? yes only 4, just to see.
Assuming we can have 8 more :food:

/city, the cost to spread it to 3 cities (founding is free) should be about 210-240 :gold:

. Corporation payments some 20gpt*4=80gpt.
What can we do with 8 more food * 4 cities?
Let's assume to run 4 sci in LP, work more productive tiles in the remaining 3 cities and use 3 more sci/each. This total 4+3*3=13sci*6 :science:

=78 raw bpt *2 (assuming to have all the science buildings) =156+24(OU in LP)=180 bpt at any rate.
We'll must use some turns to produce the executives and not structures.

This makes those 180 bpt cost 80-4*4*3(WS)=32gpt net.
It seems a good choice.
But:
We fire a GM, so we can't have a GS to bulb some 1600 or more :science:

later.
Assuming to have the GM by turn 150-152, we can benefit of those 180 bpt in turn 155, on average. *40 turns before the launch this can be a huge 7200 :science:

.

I'm sold, let's go Sushi. But please verify my calculations.

Later i'll post some suggestions for Simon. When do you plan to play, assumed we agree on some point?

Mesix · Jun 4, 2009

Not only does Sushi allow more :science:

, but in the final rush to build SS components, the additional population can be convertered to engineers or :hammers:

tiles to maximize :hammers:

for the win.

You also forgot the reduced maintenance cost from having the corp HQ in the Wall St. city (since the bonus :gold:

for spreading is +100%). You get +4 :gold:

(not

) for every city with the corp modified by structures. With market (+25%), grocier (+25%), bank (+50%), and Wall St. (+100%) that is a total of 12 :gold:

per turn.

Don't forget to count the rice in your calculations.

BLubmuz · Jun 4, 2009

Mesix said:
Not only does Sushi allow more , but in the final rush to build SS components, the additional population can be convertered to engineers or tiles to maximize for the win.

You also forgot the reduced maintenance cost from having the corp HQ in the Wall St. city (since the bonus for spreading is +100%). You get +4 (not ) for every city with the corp modified by structures. With market (+25%), grocier (+25%), bank (+50%), and Wall St. (+100%) that is a total of 12 per turn.

Don't forget to count the rice in your calculations.

I forgot nothing. The Sushi food output is seen in the appropriate table in game.
Nor i forgot WS

BLubmuz said:
This makes those 180 bpt cost 80-4*4*3(WS)=32gpt net.
It seems a good choice.

greatbeyond · Jun 4, 2009

Your calculations are making my head hurt.

Simon's PPP

Trades - Any are probably OK for selling minor techs. We don't want to trade away any good techs. We don't want any competition for the Space Race or for the AI to build a strong military.

Exploration - Spies can be useful for stealing techs from the AI. It doesn't appear that the AI has anything we really need.

They can also be used for sabotaging production or improvements.

I have also used them with limited success for city flipping. It's too bad we can't plant spies in Atlantis. Wait a minute, do we have a Caravel? If we do we could plant several Spies there and try to get it to flip.

BLubmuz · Jun 4, 2009

greatbeyond said:
Your calculations are making my head hurt.
I suppose i have to thank you for the compliment

Simon's PPP

Trades - Any are probably OK for selling minor techs. We don't want to trade away any good techs. We don't want any competition for the Space Race or for the AI to build a strong military.

Yes, we can probably trade DR for some money, maybe music. We don't need it, but we can see MT.
But: if our friend Wang decide to go after Shaka, we can give him rifling.
I mean, no bribing him, just keep Shaka busy

Exploration - Spies can be useful for stealing techs from the AI. It doesn't appear that the AI has anything we really need.
yes, indeed

They can also be used for sabotaging production or improvements.
Let the AI in their soup

I have also used them with limited success for city flipping. It's too bad we can't plant spies in Atlantis. Wait a minute, do we have a Caravel? If we do we could plant several Spies there and try to get it to flip.

Never tried, honest. I't worth a test, i suppose. We have a galleon and a frigate, busy at the moment, but... :evil:

Simon_c · Jun 5, 2009

I think we still need agreement on the following points.

* Do we trade Banking to get Music ? Do we need/want music ? It will give the colonists something to listen to on the way

* How to load up Pindus

* Do we start another GA now ? (I'd guess not. Lets wait until all of Joao's lands are ours)

* What to build once we have 6 banks. After getting a few spies, do we start to build :gold:

or

?

I think we have agreed that
* put some spies into the queues somewhere.
* slot a carvel in there somewhere.
* If we get a GSci keep until we're ready to get Electricity (after Democracy ? ) then bulb him.
* Wall St (and corp HQs) goes to LaunchPad
* Bulbz's war plan I'll be following.

I should be able to play any evening, but (Friday evening is not guaranteed, about 80% chance) or even get the turns in in the next 8 hours if we have agreement.

BLubmuz · Jun 5, 2009

Simon_c said:
I think we still need agreement on the following points.

* Do we trade Banking to get Music ? Do we need/want music ? It will give the colonists something to listen to on the way
Better trade DR.
* How to load up Pindus
merchants, we'll go for sushi (see my previous post and verify my calculations, please)
* Do we start another GA now ? (I'd guess not. Lets wait until all of Joao's lands are ours) and out of revolt

* What to build once we have 6 banks. After getting a few spies, do we start to build or ? never!!! until very late in the game. markets. grocers, observatories/labs, harbors. our cities need everything!

I think we have agreed that
* put some spies into the queues somewhere. not in your TS: i have to test that thing
* slot a carvel in there somewhere. no, we already have a galleon
* If we get a GSci keep until we're ready to get Electricity (after Democracy ? ) then bulb him. say, when we'll have conquered Portugal. Corporations after Demo
* Wall St (and corp HQs) goes to LaunchPad yes
* Bulbz's war plan I'll be following. yes

I should be able to play any evening, but (Friday evening is not guaranteed, about 80% chance) or even get the turns in in the next 8 hours if we have agreement.

I think you can play when you want, the GM for Sushi is agreed.
I don't know if it's better build the Moai in Evora or Borsippa. If you capture Evora with Forge we can build Moai there, otherwise we have to wait too long, better Borsippa.

unclethrill · Jun 5, 2009

Looks good to me with all the adjustments. We definitely want to wait on the GA until after the war but it should be almost over by the end of your TS. Good Luck!

Simon_c · Jun 5, 2009

The idea on the spies and carvels was to monitor what was going on in Atlantis. I suspect AlanH has left a surprise in there for us. I wouldn't want them to launch before us

But, I'm sure it can wait some more turns before we do this.

OK. City builds are as above then. No Sci/Gold.
I guess the general order is Forge, Granary, CH, Lib, Harbour, Bank, market, grocer, Customs house, uni ? Subject to local conditions of course.

SGOTM 09 - Fifth Element

Prince

The Allfather

HoF Quattromaster

Prince

The Allfather

King

HoF Quattromaster

HoF Quattromaster

In the foetal position

The Allfather

Prince

HoF Quattromaster

The Allfather

HoF Quattromaster

King

HoF Quattromaster

Prince

HoF Quattromaster

Why am I up right now?

Prince

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