SGOTM 09 - Xteam

[ShannonCT]

The portugese rex amazingly well, we'll probably have to do some blocking to keep them out of our land.

It looks like we are separated by a single-tile wide isthmus. And south of that isthmus is jungle.

 

[PaulisKhan]

I think it's two isthmusesses on either side of a lake? (I was looking at the lake and considering a Moai city there instead. 3f 1h 2c is an ok tile if you're going to use water tiles.

 

[Grover22]

Yeah. In the screenshots of the actual game, it looks like two isthmi. I haven't worked up the courage to touch an actual save yet. Too much could go wrong there, I think.

In the Bizarro save, it's a single tile isthmus, and probably that's what Shannon was remembering.

 

[Cactus Pete]

As promised, here is a test from SCT's practice save, building Oracle in the marble city on turn 43: http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=209031&stc=1&d=1238560215

If other testing suggests that this is the best approach, I'll replay, take, and post detailed notes.

 

[Frederiksberg]

I haven't had time to do any new testing yet. My feeling from old testing is that tech speed is limiting more than hammers for the moment and I'm tempted to investigate if we can get some gold from overflow - perhaps by whipping/chopping a warrior in Sparta. We would want Pottery and Writing soon to get those Granaries and Libraries built.

 

[Frederiksberg]

I think it's two isthmusesses on either side of a lake? (I was looking at the lake and considering a Moai city there instead. 3f 1h 2c is an ok tile if you're going to use water tiles.

Settling on the westernmost isthmus is not bad at all. There are no resources, but a floodplain and several hills. And the lake tiles will have 3f when a lighthouse is built (And 1 hammer with Moai). Blocking or slowing down Portuguese expansion is another benefit.

 

[Grover22]

How much time do we have for play testing?

I played through 10 turns twice last night before I fell asleep. I could try again once this morning before work, and then some more late tonight.

It's nice to have a posted target of turn 43 to beat. It'd also be nice to know an approx deadline.

This is far more fun than I imagined it would be. The practice save idea is great.

One thing that probably isn't valued as highly as it should be in replaying the practice saves is scouting. In the real game, it'd be nice to reveal what else is around that marble sooner rather than later. I guess we need to put turns into warriors (or something) even in the practices to allow our two cities to grow, but the faster we crank out a warrior in the actual game, the better, I'd say.

G22

 

[leif erikson]

I haven't had time to do any new testing yet. My feeling from old testing is that tech speed is limiting more than hammers for the moment and I'm tempted to investigate if we can get some gold from overflow - perhaps by whipping/chopping a warrior in Sparta. We would want Pottery and Writing soon to get those Granaries and Libraries built.

The change to Environmentalism brings +2 gold per Windmill. This we can now. The completion of the Oracle and selection of Electricity brings +2 per Watermill.

I like CP's save. It shows one problem with locating our second city east of the copper. It shares only one tile with our Capital and thus only one happy for a forest preserve. This is not the overiding consideration, so we should still place it there I think.

 

[leif erikson]

How much time do we have for play testing?

I played through 10 turns twice last night before I fell asleep. I could try again once this morning before work, and then some more late tonight.

It's nice to have a posted target of turn 43 to beat. It'd also be nice to know an approx deadline.

This is far more fun than I imagined it would be. The practice save idea is great

Fred will be posting a pre-play plan sometime between now and Friday. He will most likely play the actual save this weekend. So, we have at least 48 hours of test time left.

After the pre-play plan is posted, then we can add our ideas if we think we have found something better and the plan can be adjusted as needed. Once we agree, then Fred is off to conquer...

 

[Frederiksberg]

How much time do we have for play testing?

I will post a plan for my turn set Friday evening and then play Saturday evening or Sunday. So there is still a fair amount of time to give input.

I figure that my turn set would naturally end when the Oracle is built or approximately 20 turns from now.

I guess we need to put turns into warriors (or something) even in the practices to allow our two cities to grow, but the faster we crank out a warrior in the actual game, the better, I'd say.

Good point, I think I will do so in my own tests. I hope to do some testing tonight so that we have more for comparison and discussion.

 

[Frederiksberg]

The change to Environmentalism brings +2 gold per Windmill. This we can now.

Don't worry leif, I won't forget .

 

[Grover22]

I've managed to get the Oracle on turn 42. (The movie shows up at the beginning of turn 43, so we got the oracle on turn 42. Also, the log shows the oracle completion date as 1480bc.) I've attached a save, and I've included the step-by-step instructions for what I did in a spoiler down below.

The highlights, or, where we stand at the start of turn 43:

We have three cities: Size 3, size 3, size 1.

Athens is 1 turn from growth to size 4.
Sparta is one turn from finishing a settler for a fourth city.
Copper is hooked to all three cities.
Athens has a barracks.
We have researched
Myst > Wheel > Med > Priesthood > Masonry > AH (just finished)
We collect Electricity from the Oracle on turn 43.

[edit: new highlight] We have only chopped two forests in all. Both were next to the marble city.
A forest preserve has been built in the forest that Athens and Sparta share.

We have a phalanx that should have been sent south to clear the path for our fourth city. He should have been able to get there before the settler could.

We have one warrior out scouting west, and another warrior garrisoned in our third city (which I named BizarroCorinth).

We have four workers.

What could have gone better:

The phalanx really should have headed south to clear a fourth city site right after he was built. I am running out of time before I have to go to work today, and I wanted to simplify things as much as I could for myself.

Athens was running three windmills for most of my set. Towards the end, after Masonry comes in, probably 2 windmills and a corn would be better to get it another quick growth or two. Electricity makes the windmills even better, so we should run the corn before Elec and the windmills after, not the other way around. I'd have re-run the last few turns differently, but I'm out of time.

[edit: caveat added] But moving from windmills to corn may delay AH and require a different tuning of the research rate to get it back by the same turn, if that will even be possible at all.

Spoiler :

Turn 22
Triple revolt, 1 turn anarchy.
Settler heads to 1e of Cu.

Turn 23
Settler reaches site. Can found next turn.
Worker A finishes windmill. Will move to other northern hill next turn.
Athens works 2 corn. Worker in 4 turns.
0% research for 1 turn.

Turn 24
Found Sparta. start workboat. work corn. growth in 3 turns.
Athens works 1 corn and windmill. worker in 4 turns.
Worker A moves to the hill 1N of athens.
100% research again. -1gpt, 9 gold in the bank.
Fortify our scout. He was distracting me.

Turn 25
Worker A starts windmilling the hill 1N of athens (4 turns).

Turn 26
Hit enter.

Turn 27
Mysticism comes in. Wheel next.
Sparta grows to size 2. Whip workboat.

Turn 28
Sparta completes workboat.
Workboat nets the fish.
Sparta starts warrior (1 turn) and can grow next turn working either fish or corn, so work fish to give corn to athens.
Athens completes Worker B. Works 2 corn. Resumes warrior, 1 turn. Growth in 2 turns. (Yuck.)
Worker A finishes windmill.
Worker B starts heading towards southern hill

Turn 29
Sparta grows to size 2 and finishes warrior Alex. Work 1 corn and fish. Start settler, 7 turns.
Athens finishes warrior Bill. Work 1 corn and 1 windmill. Start another warrior, 3 turns. Growth in 1.
Bill and Alex both head west to see what they can see near the marble. Is there a better site just west of the marble, maybe? Also, they'll have pre-chopper protection duties out there, eventually.
Worker A moves onto the copper.
Worker B reaches the southern hill.

Turn 30
Athens grows to size 3. work 2 windmills and a corn. Growth in 3, warrior in 1. Switch to a worker, 4 turns.
Worker A starts the copper mine.
Worker B starts the windmill.

Turn 31
Wheel comes in. Start Meditation, 4 nominal turns.
Set research to 0% for a turn.

Turn 32
Set research back to 100%. -1gpt, 19 gold in the bank.
Happily, we stay at -1gpt with both Alex and Bill outside our culture, and our scout in the south outside, too.

Turn 33
Bill defends against a lion.
He bravely moves onto the ice hill NW of the marble at 1.7 strength to get a view, and he sees a barb warrior in the forest adjacent to him (gulp). In any case, he has succeeded in revealing the remaining tiles in the BFC centered on the marble this turn.
Worker A starts roading his copper mine.

Turn 34
Bill fends off the barb warrior with 0.3 health left to spare. He earns a promo to combat 1 for the health it restores and stays on his hill to heal.
Athens finishes Worker C. Start another, 4 turns. Work 3 windmills.
Worker C moves 1NE into the forest. He's heading to the forests near the marble for some pre-chops.
Worker B moves off his windmill, W-NW to a plains hill. He'll mine that hill for the marble city and then become a chopper.

Turn 35
Meditation comes in. Priesthood next, 3 turns.
Alex and Bill are near the marble to provide cover for workers, if necessary.
Worker C moves 1W. He'll reach a pre-choppable forest next turn.
Worker B starts mining the plains hill SE of the marble.
Worker A moves into the forest SW of copper. He'll build a road and a forest preserve there.

Turn 36
Sparta finishes Settler. Works copper and fish. Starts phalanx, 3 turns. Growth in 3.
Worker A starts a road SW of copper.
Worker C moves to forest 1N of marble.
We stay at -1gpt when he leaves our culture.
Settler moves W-SW, heading to marble.
Alex and Bill strike poses to show off their awesome physiques. Not a barb in sight.

Turn 37
Settler moves SW.
Worker C starts pre-chopping the forest 1N of the marble.
Worker B finishes mining the plains hill SE of the marble.

Turn 38
Priesthood comes in. Masonry next, 2 turns.
Settler moves onto the marble. Can found next turn.
We are at -2gpt once the settler left our culture.
Worker B moves into the forest 1W of the marble.
Bill moves onto Worker B for protection.
Worker C gets a second turn of pre-chopping done.
Athens finishes Worker D. Working 3 windmills. Starts barracks, 5 turns, growth in 8.
Worker D heads into the forest NW to build a road.
Worker A starts preserving the forest SW of the copper.
Alex and Bill continue flexing.

Turn 39
Worker D starts his road (NW of Athens)

Sparta grows to size 3 and finishes a phalanx. Works fish, copper, and corn. Starts a settler, 5 turns.
I test-move the phalanx out of sparta and then back in using the road to see if sparta stays happy without him, and it does. So that phalanx could be sent somewhere (south) to clear a path for our fourth city down there. I leave him in Sparta for now, but I don't think that's optimal.

BizarroCorinth is founded on the marble. Works the mined plains hill. Start oracle, 17 nominal turns.
Worker B starts chopping 1W of Corinth.
We drop to -3 gpt. We have 11 gold in the bank. Masonry comes in next turn.

I'm not sure whether worker C's chop will finish before or after we get Masonry next turn.

I re-issue the chop order for this turn, spending his action for the turn. Then I manually cancel the chop order. He will finish the chop next turn. I just want to make sure it'll finish after Masonry. (I'm not really sure how that marble bonus will work.)

Alex goes out exploring NW. Bill stays near Corinth, just in case.

Turn 40

Masonry comes in. AH next, 3 turns, but we'll need to spend a turn at 0% before it finishes. Oracle drops to 8 turns with masonry.

Worker C is then manually given the order to finish his chop. The chop puts 13 towards Corinth's production, and they all get doubled. Oracle in 6 nominal turns, now.

Turn 41

Worker D has finished his road and moves 1W into new forest to start another.
Alex goes out exploring. Bill stays near Corinth.

Worker C starts a road 1N of Corinth. We'll connect to the other cities through the sheep.
Worker B finishes his chop. Oracle in 2 turns.

Turn 42

Corinth's borders expand, and the auto-governor takes us off the mined hill and onto the sheep, delaying the oracle by a turn. I go back to working the mined hill. Oracle next turn.
Worker B moves NE and takes over roading duties from Worker C.
Worker C moves NE onto the sheep and starts a road there.
Worker D starts his road in the forest SE of sheep.
Bill moves into Corinth itself.
Alex keeps exploring W.

What to do about research rate? We can't sustain 100% for another turn. 50% for a turn is free of rounding losses, but gives AH in 2 turns. We really want it next turn to keep our workers working.

I set research to 60% for a turn, losing one beaker to rounding, but keeping us in the black and getting us AH next turn.

Turn 43
AH comes in.

These pictures appeared on turn 43, 1420bc.

Set research rate back to 100%, at -3gpt. (We can sustain that for only 2 turns...)
Research pottery, because that's 2 turns and we get it before we need another 0% research break, whereas writing is 4 turns and comes after the break. I guess?

Athens finishes barracks and resumes spearman (was a warrior in the queue). Growth in 3 and spearman in 2. Move onto (2 windmills, 1 corn). Now growth in 1 and spearman in 3. We'll be back on that windmill next turn with the extra pop.

G22

 

[Frederiksberg]

Very interesting read G22 .

I have a few comments:

It may be to our advantage not to connect copper immediately after building the mine because we want to build more warriors for fog busting and later MP duty. Warriors are much cheaper than phalanx's and spears.

It's probably too early to build barracks. We are not anywhere close to attacking someone so it's probably better to invest our hammers in something immediately useful. There aren't many alternatives except building warriors/workers and settlers. This is also one reason why I would like to get to Pottery faster (So that we can build granaries). Perhaps postpone Wheel even further and substitute with Pottery?

It would be very interesting to see if it's possible to get some gold from overflow without delaying the Oracle significantly. The mechanism for this is as follows: Build a warrior until he is almost complete. Then whip him and finish a forest chop simultaneously. This generates so much overflow that some of the hammers will be paid out in gold instead of overflowing to the next build.

 

[Grover22]

Very interesting read G22 .

It would be very interesting to see if it's possible to get some gold from overflow without delaying the Oracle significantly. The mechanism for this is as follows: Build a warrior until he is almost complete. Then whip him and finish a forest chop simultaneously. This generates so much overflow that some of the hammers will be paid out in gold instead of overflowing to the next build.

I'm not ready for the advanced course, yet.

 

[Grover22]

Perhaps postpone Wheel even further and substitute with Pottery?

Is wheel not a pre-requisite of pottery?

 

[ShannonCT]

Is wheel not a pre-requisite of pottery?

The student has become the teacher.

Here's a practice game I just ran through:

 

[Frederiksberg]

Is wheel not a pre-requisite of pottery?

Yes, I quite often forget.

I'm not ready for the advanced course, yet.

Sure you are. Exam on Friday


I did a test of my own with more emphasis on tech rate. Here's the result:

Test game w. gold chop

I managed to get the Oracle in turn 43 and chop some gold to fuel research. This enabled me to get Pottery. AH is due in 2 turns and Writing in 5. There is, of course a trade off compared to e.g. SCT's save where a Settler is available along with an almost completed Airship. I think I'm willing to do the trade in order to get granaries and Libraries faster. When Writing is in the bag we are ready for the next expansion phase. Fast Writing is important if we want to avoid getting a GProphet from Oracle.

 

[Frederiksberg]

I was thinking, it would be interesting to see how SCT's game would go if the Airship or Settler could somehow be replace by a gold chop. One interesting question is if it's better to build Oracle in the marble city?

 

[leif erikson]

One interesting question is if it's better to build Oracle in the marble city?

I like the idea of building The Oracle in Marble City. It keeps the gene pool clear should we get Hanging Garden or another Engineer producing wonder in the Capital and it pushes culture at the edge of our growing empire. The city will keep gaining GP points for most of the game, should we find that need a GP at some point. Can we use a GProphet for Golden Age?

It also keeps the queue clear in Capital to push out Workers, Settlers and Warriors as needed (Airship?)

EDIT - Might be a bit scarce as I have to replace a motherboard this evening and reload windows on a system. Hopefully, I'll get a chance to really pay attention to the test game a bit later. You guys are doing fine for sure.

 

[Frederiksberg]

It also keeps the queue clear in Capital to push out Workers, Settlers and Warriors as needed (Airship?)

This is not necessarily an advantage. With little useful stuff to build outside of workers, settlers and warriors it's actually not bad to spend some turns on The Oracle while growing the capital. An Airship is nice but I doubt that hammers invested in it at this early stage will give a return that is even close to the return on an early Granary or Library.

Before selecting each build we should consider what is the best investment right now. Even if an Airship is a good investment there may be even better ways to use the relatively limited hammers we have at this early stage of the game.