SGOTM 09 - Xteam

[PaulisKhan]

Bleh, that revolt in Babylon sucks, bad luck =/
Quite a few missed hammers and beakers for us.

So strategy now:

set the invasion fleet for Incan lands
max research our way to steel?
wipe out last babylonian city as soon as peace treaty expires
Build enough forges to enable Ironworks
Build more troopers for Portugese conquest
Build three more settlers to finish settling our east coast

 

[leif erikson]

Bleh, that revolt in Babylon sucks, bad luck =/
Quite a few missed hammers and beakers for us.

So strategy now:

Yes, a bit disappointing.

set the invasion fleet for Incan lands

How many Paratroopers shall we send? We currently have 11. We could put together a force of six, two Galleons full?

max research our way to steel?
wipe out last babylonian city as soon as peace treaty expires

Agree, shouldn't be a problem.

Build enough forges to enable Ironworks

We currently have Forges in:
Athens, Sparta, Corinth, Thebes, Argos, Mycenae, Ephesus, Babylon and Akkad, with one due in Piraeus next turn. That requirement is met.

Build more troopers for Portugese conquest

How soon should we be ready to start this? Thankfully, enough Forges are completed so we can focus on Paratrooper production. How large a force do we need before starting the war?

Build three more settlers to finish settling our east coast

Cities to be founded include: by the Rice, on the peninsula, one between the Iron and Wine on the forest tile (shall we cut that forest?) and where is the third, by the Pigs? Joao has a Settler on the Hill near the Clams which may preclude us from founding further south?

We need to keep an eye on Capac and his teching of Education, heading for Liberalism.
Capac also has Divine Right. He has built several more cities, so we could take his three main cities, and perhaps Cori, and then Vassalize him for techs?

After Delphi completes its Paratrooper, perhaps we should dedicate it to Chariots for MP's? Piraeus could also do this.

We can reposition Airships down to Ephesus (4) and the Airship in Vladivostok can go to Babylon to keep an eye on Hammi's last city.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Pleased to hear that we have achieved our goal of capturing Borsippa and Sippar.

It was inevitable that we would loose a 95% battle at some point. 1 out of 20 will go wrong. We were a bit unlucky with he revolt in Babylon - can we tell if this was caused by cultural pressure or by spy infiltration? I suppose a 5 turn revolt can't be instigated by a spy. Did the library finish before the revolt took place? (Don't have the save available).

max research our way to steel?

I suggest a detour to Biology (Chemistry - Biology - Steel) so that we can get started on the National Park in Babylon. Biology will also be helpful to restart growth in several of our cities.

Build three more settlers to finish settling our east coast

Are we in any hurry there? Apart from the rice+fish spot the other city sites are not very attractive. Maybe we should postpone settling the other sites until we are close to having Mining Inc?

How many Paratroopers shall we send? We currently have 11. We could put together a force of six, two Galleons full?

Six sounds like a good number. As soon as Tiwanaku is captured we can airlift reinforcements as required.

How soon should we be ready to start this? Thankfully, enough Forges are completed so we can focus on Paratrooper production. How large a force do we need before starting the war?

I think we should attack as soon as our paratroopers are healed and ready in Argos. If we send 6 para's against Capac we have 5 plus any extra we build to apply against Joao.

 

[PaulisKhan]

Re Inca:
If their new cities are "substandard" and claim no metals then we should capture their good cities and then make peace, rather than vassalise (so as to not pick up half their land tiles towards the dom limit)
If they are substandard but claim metals then we should probably vassalise and demand their resources
If they are good cities we should capture them and wipe the Incas out completely
6 paratroopers seems like an adequate expeditionary force, remembering that we can instantly airlift in more units from Athens once the first city has been captured.

Re Portugese and new cities: The rice+fish and the cows+wine+iron cities are as you suggested (can't precisely remember the ideal location of the iron city but I assume you've got it right).
The third city I had in mind was in the jungle and claimed 3 food resources (pig and 2 seafood?) but if Joao is already moving in then theres not much we can do about it (no city razing allowed).
For the portugese conquest I have in mind 8 or so troopers at the start, I would prefer to not attack with fewer than this but I'm completely open to being persuaded otherwise.
20 paratroopers in total seems like it should be enough to sustain the rest of our wars to come, so long as we're airlifting in cheaper guard units after capture.

tech path I'm assuming will be something like this
Steel->Steampower->Lib[railroad]->Corporations (last mining inc tech to be researched as it obseletes TGLH)->Assembly Line

the alternative would be something involving Radio for Christo, but with nationalism on the way to corps then we will probably be in a Taj inspired golden age for the Free Market civics change anyway (pretty much required to run corps effectively) so Christo becomes less important.


At this point we probably want to start planning our GP pops around golden ages. I played a HoF space game the other day with a philo leader (for a change) and managed 6 golden ages total which generally takes you from Nationalism to the end of the game, with maybe short lull.

We will need courthouses ready in our cities that will be recieving corps, the maintenance cost can be quite prohibitive otherwise. Many of our cities will be losing quite a bit of commerce once we switch out of environmentalism and this should also be factored in when comparing the benefits of uni vs courthouse.

 

[PaulisKhan]

I suggest a detour to Biology (Chemistry - Biology - Steel) so that we can get started on the National Park in Babylon. Biology will also be helpful to restart growth in several of our cities.

Mining Inc will be worth 20 hpt per city from the start, Biology will be worth 3-4 food per city + national park in one city.

Are we in any hurry there? Apart from the rice+fish spot the other city sites are not very attractive. Maybe we should postpone settling the other sites until we are close to having Mining Inc?

Maybe, the sooner we get their infrastructure in place though the sooner we can start them building wealth. Ie we want a forge+courthouse as a bare minimum ready when mining inc is due

 

[PaulisKhan]

This link might prove helpful in giving an overview of where I see us headed
Deity HoF

It's a quick visual comparison of game scores from Ironhead and myself across 4 different games under similar conditions.
There are two clearly different strategies at play here. Ironhead takes risks at extremely huge odds early on, but slows down towards the end. He also focuses less on corps and more on tech trading with a single AI throught the game.
My strategy plays a relatively safer start (though still at huge odds compared to what would be acceptable for a GOTM) but eventually completely dominates the AI.
Although Ironhead currently has the lead on that little duel between us, I believe my strategy is more appropriate for our game due to the lack of late game trading partners at this difficulty level (my techs are almost entirely self researched once it gets past the ren/ind era and thus the strategy is largely independent of game difficulty).
If you look at the score graph on SGOTM update page you can sort of see some similarities already.
I think this clumsily illustrates the need to maintain our pace of conquest in order to secure the maximum number of resources so that we really blast through the last quarter of the game.

 

[Frederiksberg]

For the portugese conquest I have in mind 8 or so troopers at the start, I would prefer to not attack with fewer than this but I'm completely open to being persuaded otherwise.

I think we should get to business when we have 4-5 healed para's ready in Argos. No need to have them sitting idle when they could be busy capturing cities. The earlier we start conquest the earlier we finish.

Tech path I'm assuming will be something like this
Steel->Steampower->Lib[railroad]->Corporations (last mining inc tech to be researched as it obseletes TGLH)->Assembly Line

Isn't it so that Steam Power is more expensive than Railroad? In that case we should take that with Lib.

I played a HoF space game the other day with a philo leader (for a change) and managed 6 golden ages total which generally takes you from Nationalism to the end of the game, with maybe short lull.

I guess this is a reason to get started on GP production ASAP. Let's hope we get the GE in Athens as expected.

We will need courthouses ready in our cities that will be receiving corps, the maintenance cost can be quite prohibitive otherwise. Many of our cities will be losing quite a bit of commerce once we switch out of environmentalism and this should also be factored in when comparing the benefits of uni vs courthouse.

Courthouses are a must in a city with a corporation. Otherwise the corporation is hardly profitable. Certainly not in large cities.

Mining Inc will be worth 20 hpt per city from the start, Biology will be worth 3-4 food per city + national park in one city.

Yes, but as we saw in an earlier analysis you have to divide by the time it takes to research a tech when you compare the benefit. The benefits of Biology would be weighted by a factor of 1/4 (4 turns to research) and Mining Inc. by a considerably smaller number (How many turns left there?). Besides, the National Park is not a small thing speeding up the generation of GP's and generating some raw commerce from the 12 free specialists.

Maybe, the sooner we get their infrastructure in place though the sooner we can start them building wealth. Ie we want a forge+courthouse as a bare minimum ready when mining inc is due

I think courthouse is more like the bare minimum. Anyway this doesn't convince me that we shouldn't be concentrating on paratroopers rather than settlers. A city with little growth potential will be costing money in maintenance so why settle before we can figure out exactly when it will get a branch of Mining Inc? Then we can time the settling so that it has time to build a courthouse.

 

[PaulisKhan]

steam power: 3200 beakers
railroad: 4500 beakers (deault normal speed)

re Biology: I'm a maybe. I keep forgetting that we already have Sci Method which I didn't account for.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Elaborating a bit more on the Biology vs Mining Inc beelines.

It takes about 4 times as long to get to Mining Inc as to Biology. This means that the effect has to be 4 times the effect of Biology.

Let's say that Biology will bring 2 extra food per city on average. How much is two food worth? In general it may allow you to either work one plains workshop for 5 hammers or perhaps two lumbermills for 8 hammers. Best case 2 watermills for 6 hammers and 6 gold. Let's be conservative and say that we gain the equivalent of 6 hammers. Multiply this with 4 and you have 24 hammers. This is what we must get from Mining Inc to break even. And we haven't even counted the benefit of having the National Park and the 12 free scientists (worth 36 gpt + 72 GPP per turn). Biology will also allow for two more "normal" specialists in Babylon if we farm the grassland river tile.

 

[leif erikson]

I was planning to finish this evening. I don't think we're ready yet?

When we are, I think the best stopping point would seem to be when there are 5 or so Paratroopers in Joao's area. I was planning to place them in Ephesus and start by taking Lagos, as it is a better city than Coimbra. Follow on forces could take Coimbra and meet at Oporto in order to get to Lisbon fairly quickly.

I think CP is next and I would like to know how he would like it setup before I do anything. So, waiting may be better.

My son graduate High School on Saturday and we have an event tomorrow evening we have to attend. I will have time Friday, otherwise, it may be best to pass on the save to the next player?

 

[PaulisKhan]

chem->bio->steel->steam power->lib[railroad]->corps->AL?

If we don't get the GE then we can consider swapping steel and bio in the order?

I think you're probably ok to keep playing Leif.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Had a look at the save.

To get the attack on Tiwanaku rolling I suggest the following: Move the paratrooper outside Sippar into the city and move the southern galleon 1N1W. The units in Borsippa and Babylon heal for one turn. Next turn move the two paratroopers from Sippar into the southern galleon (land on the west bank of the river an move 1S1W into the galleon). Move the two paratroppers from Borsippa into Nippur and from there into the galleon. Do the same with the strongest of the two paratroopers in Babylon. Now sail to Tiwanaku with the two galleons containing 5 paratroopers. There are only 4 defenders there so they should have a decent chance of taking the city. They will arrive at T119 and the northern galleon can drop of units W of Tiwanaku to prevent units from coming to the rescue and the southern galleon can drop of units E of Tiwanaku.

Some MM'ing:

Sparta should work copper and watermill, Pharsalos is better off working the plains cottage than the coast and Nippur should start working all coast tiles (Perhaps hire a single merchant to get expansion in one and then start working the iron).

Misc:

Argos should probably build a Library before paratroopers. Sound strange, but we get 11 bpt for an investment of 30 hammers so it's almost a crime not to do it. We need some workers in Babylonian territory fast. Move the workers away from Argos, they are no longer useful down there. The road south from Argos is not really needed since we are going to paradrop from there skipping the road. Perhaps move a worker from Greenland to Justinian's capital and gift. And bring home the phalanx for MP duty on Greenland.

 

[Frederiksberg]

When we are, I think the best stopping point would seem to be when there are 5 or so Paratroopers in Joao's area. I was planning to place them in Ephesus and start by taking Lagos, as it is a better city than Coimbra. Follow on forces could take Coimbra and meet at Oporto in order to get to Lisbon fairly quickly.

We can build our army faster in Argos. Only one unit can be airlifted per turn and that limits the speed of build up in Ephesus. We could have 5 paratroopers in Argos in 2 turns (1 already there, 2 coming from Corinth/Sparta using paradrops and 2 coming from Delphi/Athens using airlift).

 

[leif erikson]

We can build our army faster in Argos. Only one unit can be airlifted per turn and that limits the speed of build up in Ephesus. We could have 5 paratroopers in Argos in 2 turns (1 already there, 2 coming from Corinth/Sparta using paradrops and 2 coming from Delphi/Athens using airlift).

If we want to begin on Joao in 2 turns, then I think we should turn the game over to the next player so they can plan and conduct that war.

As CP is next up, I'll await his input.

 

[leif erikson]

chem->bio->steel->steam power->lib[railroad]->corps->AL?

If we don't get the GE then we can consider swapping steel and bio in the order

The Great Person in Athens is due in 7 turns. Chemistry will be completed in 2 turns and then we have to decide what's next. Both Biology and Steel look like they'll require 4 turns each. So one or the other will get completed before the GP is born.

Also, only PK has said anything about the Great General. I'm with him on using him as a Military Instructor in Argos.

The other good thing about starting another war will be the Gold we need to fuel research, so perhaps the earlier is better?

 

[Cactus Pete]

My time is not my own right now and that probably isn't going to change for a few days. I can't easily plan and get ready to play by Friday, so would be pleased for leif to play further then.

In any event, I've no experience with paratroopers. Can someone conveniently provide me a save so I can take a few minutes and make sure I understand how they work?

 

[Frederiksberg]

Also, only PK has said anything about the Great General. I'm with him on using him as a Military Instructor in Argos.

I think that makes sense. We are likely to get another GG or two later anyway for Military Academy.

Regarding the gift of a Greenland worker to Justinian: We should probably build a road from his capital to the river before we gift. This should enable trade so that we can get his horses.

 

[leif erikson]

I think that makes sense. We are likely to get another GG or two later anyway for Military Academy.

Thanks.

Regarding the gift of a Greenland worker to Justinian: We should probably build a road from his capital to the river before we gift. This should enable trade so that we can get his horses.

The city is on the coast, wouldn't that connect it to our trade network?

My time is not my own right now and that probably isn't going to change for a few days. I can't easily plan and get ready to play by Friday, so would be pleased for leif to play further then.

In any event, I've no experience with paratroopers. Can someone conveniently provide me a save so I can take a few minutes and make sure I understand how they work?

OK, I can continue this evening or tomorrow evening.

@Fred - curious why we should send 5 Paratroopers to Incan lands when we have space for 6 and 6 available. The attack on Joao is not planned to include any of the troopers that participated in the Bab operation?

@CP, the attached save has 10 Paratroopers located in Delphi for you to play with. They can only "jump" from cities with a range of 5 tiles. After landing, they can move one more tile but cannot attack on the turn they "jump". I was a bit surprised to see that they can move one more tile no matter where you drop them, even on forested hills. They are pretty cool!

 

[Cactus Pete]

Thanks for the para-save, leif.

 

[Frederiksberg]

The city is on the coast, wouldn't that connect it to our trade network?

I think we need a connection to the capital. In the resource screen trade with Justinian is not enabled.

@Fred - curious why we should send 5 Paratroopers to Incan lands when we have space for 6 and 6 available. The attack on Joao is not planned to include any of the troopers that participated in the Bab operation?

The strength 5.xx unit is the only other paratrooper that can board a galleon next turn which is close enough to Tiwanaku to get there in 3 turns. We can bring him also but he won't be even close to healed. The other five units should be healed when they land E and W of Tiwanaku in T119. The whole idea is speed. Warfare is painfully slow on Quick speed so every turn counts! We could send a few more units from Babylonian cities in a trailing galleon leaving perhaps 1 or 2 turns later. This galleon could then head directly for Cuzco.

I think it's important that we play this warring phase of the game almost as if it was a domination game. At least in terms of optimizing attack speed.

Perhaps it would make sense to play two more turns and then pause. By then we could have 5 paratroopers in Argos and 5 paratroopers in galleons on the border of Inca culture. War declarations on Capac and Joao would then follow simultaneously in T119 when the game is resumed.