SGOTM 09 - Xteam

Assuming SS launch will happen in around 15 turns, most builds now should be wealth/research. SS part cities need factory/plant/lab, but other cities should only build infrastructure if the payoff of the building after completion and before SS launch is greater than the cost. Health buildings to compensate for Free Market health loss are only needed in SS cities that will starve otherwise or that need to grow to bigger to reach their productive potential (namely Sippar and Corinth). It would be nice to get banana before making peace with Shaka.

Corp reps can be built until the hammer+gold cost is greater than the net benefit (benefit + HQ gold - maintenance, all times number of remaining turns).

The switch to Free Market can happen now. We'll lose 57*2 from windmills. We're working ~60 forest preserves, and lose 3 commerce each with FM, but those changed to lumbermills only lose 1 yield compared preserves. The lost health will require maybe 1500 hammers invested in health buildings. Benefits of FM are 40*3 commerce from the extra trade route and 210 gpt saved in corporate maintenance now (soon to be ~250 gpt).

Leif, the next golden age can be started with 2 GPs, so we only need 2 more GPs out of Babylon for our last 2 GAs, maybe a merchant and a scientist. After that, Babylon can be prepared to build SS parts.
 
Assuming SS launch will happen in around 15 turns, most builds now should be wealth/research. SS part cities need factory/plant/lab, but other cities should only build infrastructure if the payoff of the building after completion and before SS launch is greater than the cost. Health buildings to compensate for Free Market health loss are only needed in SS cities that will starve otherwise or that need to grow to bigger to reach their productive potential (namely Sippar and Corinth). It would be nice to get banana before making peace with Shaka.
My choice for the SS parts cities would be:
Athens - it has all the requisite buildings but needs health badly, already at -4. To switch to Free Market this turn, we need to change the build to Hospital, then Grocer and then Public Trans. Checking the buildings list, I didn't know that once the 3GD comes on line, the game takes away the unhealthiness of the Coal Plant. :thumbsup:

Corinth - currently at +3 health with +2 food after growth next turn. It needs an Observatory as well as a Laboratory, giving -2 health. We can build Hospital, Observatory, Laboratory. If needed, there is Aqueduct and Public Trans. Then it is ready for SS parts.

Sippar - it is at the health limit, so changing to FM will cause it to starve. After Apollo, it needs Hospital, Aqueduct, Observatory, Laboratory, Grocer and, perhaps, Public Trans. Thankfully, they are all 1 turn builds. :)

Argos - is at -1 health. It needs Hospital, Grocer, Harbor, Observatory, Laboratory and then is ready to build SS parts. That is if we are done with wars. :)

Seoul - continue on Factory, Coal Plant, Observatory and Laboratory and get forests pre-chopped. Will need some health buildings as well, like Grocer and Hospital.

Should we need another SS parts city, Coimbra is a possibility. It would need Observatory and Laboratory and some additional health buildings.

All other cities, upon completion of their current builds, can go to Wealth except:
Thebes, Knossos, Piraeus, Guimaraes Evora Namp'o and Tiwanaku change to Research?
Mycenae should build a Factory, then Wealth.
Akkad can continue to build Mining Inc or Std Ethanol Exec.

Corp reps can be built until the hammer+gold cost is greater than the net benefit (benefit + HQ gold - maintenance, all times number of remaining turns).
Seoul needs Mining Inc. The cities with Power from 3GD should also get it to add to their Wealth building?

The switch to Free Market can happen now. We'll lose 57*2 from windmills. We're working ~60 forest preserves, and lose 3 commerce each with FM, but those changed to lumbermills only lose 1 yield compared preserves. The lost health will require maybe 1500 hammers invested in health buildings. Benefits of FM are 40*3 commerce from the extra trade route and 210 gpt saved in corporate maintenance now (soon to be ~250 gpt).
OK.

Leif, the next golden age can be started with 2 GPs, so we only need 2 more GPs out of Babylon for our last 2 GAs, maybe a merchant and a scientist. After that, Babylon can be prepared to build SS parts.
Thanks. We can start a Golden Age in two turns using an Artist and a Merchant.

Should the next GP be a Merchant, then we should switch all the Merchant specialists in Babylon to Scientists.

Once Apollo is completed, we can begin to building SS parts that are available to us, making sure that we maintain 100% research rate by switching cities to Wealth as needed. We will immediately have available to build SS Thrusters.

Also, took another look at tech path and think it should be adjusted to research Composites before Satellites, as there are 5 SS Casings to build at 804 hammers each versus 1 Docking Bay at 1,340 hammers.
 
Nice work with the plan and the spreadsheet :goodjob:

I have a couple of general comments:

As SCT said we are not far from the end of the game and this changes the rules. Many builds become unprofitable because there are not enough turns left in the game to regain invested hammers. Thus we want to build wealth in most cities and only improvements that are very profitable even in a 15 turn time frame and improvements that are required to prevent starvation in 15 turn time frame.

Health buildings:
The best bulding for improving health is the harbour because it gives 3 health points for only 53 hammers and even some extra trade route gold to sweeten the deal. Second best is the public transportation that gives 4 health for 100 hammers. Third best is the grocer with 3 health for 100 hammers. In conclusion we should build harbour first, then public transportation and maybe in rare cases a grocer. Hospitals are very expensive and should never be built.

Prime candidates for a harbour are: Argos, Pharsalos, Cuzco, Machu Pichu, Ephesus. Cities that need public transportation are: Athens, Seul, Argos, Sippar, Corinth.

I think the food problem in Coimbra can be solved by MM'ing so that the city gets acces to one of the windmills now worked by Ephesus.

Hammer buildings:
I think it's time to stop building forges since they will have low profitability in most cities (Pyongyang may be an exception). On our home continent factories are still profitable in many cities like Mycenae and Babylon. Developing a city from scratch building courthouse, forge, factory and spreading Mining Inc there is no longer profitable with a time frame of 15 turns.

Science buildings:
Thanks to the 100% bonus on bulding libraries they are profitable everywhere and so are universities. Developing a city from scratch building library, university and spreading Standard Ethanol is still profitable so this is probably where our main focus should be.

Other buildings: In general I think we shouldn't build them. Courthouses may still pay off in connection with SE and library. It's probably too late for granaries and lighthouses.

Corporations:
Spreading Sushi is not profitable anywhere with the given time frame. Mining Inc. is still worth spreading to cities that have the hammer multipliers built or under construction - good places to spread soon are Thebes (could be used for smaller space parts!), Seul, Lisbon. Babylon will also need Mining Inc. at some point. Standard Ethanol should be spread as fast as possible - many cities will benefit tremendously from this. Good places to start spreading are Thebes, Pharsalos, Ephesus, Knossos and of course our space part building cities (Don't try to spread SE in our Sushi cities though - SE and Sushi are competing and forcing Sushi out by mistake is not good.)

Space parts: Athens and Thebes (thrusters only) are ready for building space parts when Apollo is done and Babylon, Cuzo and Seul should also be equipped with laboratories so that we can chop some of the big space parts there. I suppose that Sippar should also have Observatory+Laboratory since it's our best hammer city. Nippur could also be given a lab - it already has an Observatory. My hunch is that these 7 cities have enough hammers combined to build all the space parts. Anyone care to check?

Civics: Switching to Free Market now sounds like the right choice and then 6 turns later we should probably be ready to switch to Free Religion for the extra beakers.
 
Stalin has 13% of the available land. If we vassalize him we are at 56.6% land. We have 3 cities waiting to come out of revolt and so does Justinian while Asoka only has one city in revolt. Alltogether it puts us dangerously close to the dom limit. It would surely prevent us from earning more gold from captured cities and it might even force us to give up some cities. Perhaps it's better to continue the war gainst Stalin and capture his resource cities?
 
Some of our wealth building cities could put some hammers in Hermitage. It must be cities with limited production so that it's not finished. We could try to finish it in a wealth building city with substantial overflow hammers queued up (Lisbon?).
 
Been away again and just caught up with the educational and detailed discussion.

Hope leif will post a revised build plan at his convenience, then I'll try to offer some bit of useful input during the next iteration of discussion.
 
Been away again and just caught up with the educational and detailed discussion.

Hope leif will post a revised build plan at his convenience, then I'll try to offer some bit of useful input during the next iteration of discussion.
Working on it now, post soon. :eek:
 
OK, let's try this again... :mischief:

Tech Path:
  • Complete Radio
  • Fission
  • Computers
  • Fiber Optics
  • Fusion
  • Composites
  • Satellites
  • Genetics
  • Ecology

Space Ship parts:
  • SS Thrusters - with Superconductors, 5 parts at 804 hammers each and double production speed with Aluminum.
  • SS Cockpit - with Fiber Optics, 1 part at 670 hammers and double production speed with Copper.
  • SS Engine - with Fusion, 2 parts at 1,072 hammers each and no double production speed.
  • SS Casing - with Composites, 5 parts at 804 hammers each and double production speed with Aluminum.
  • SS Docking Bay - with Satellites, 1 part at 1,340 hammers and double production speed with Aluminum.
  • SS Stasis Chamber - with Genetics, 1 part at 804 hammers and no double production speed.
  • SS Life Support - with Ecology, 1 part at 670 hammers and double production speed of Aluminum.

City Builds:
Space Ship Building Cities:
Athens - Public Transportation, Grocer, Std Ethanol Exec, SS Thruster, SS Thruster
Sippar - Complete Apollo, Public Transportation, Grocer, Observatory, Laboratory, SS parts as they become available.
Nippur - Public Transportation, Laboratory, Wealth or Space Ship parts.
Cuzco - Harbor, Observatory, Laboratory, Wealth or SS parts.
Seoul - Complete Factory, Coal Plant, Grocer, Laboratory, Wealth or Space Ship parts.
Lisbon - Public Transportation, Observatory, Laboratory, Wealth or Space Ship parts.
Babylon - Complete Grocer, Observatory, Laboratory.
Thebes - Complete Laboratory, Harbor, SS Thrusters.
Corinth - Public Transportation, Laboratory, Wealth or Space Ship part
Argos - Harbor, Public Transportation, Observatory and Laboratory, SS parts as needed.
Coimbra - Grocer, Public Transportation, Laboratory (?), Wealth or Space Ship parts.

Other cities:
Piraeus - Complete Observatory, Grocer, Std Ethanol Execs.
Delphi - Complete Factory, set to Wealth.
Sparta - Complete Mining Inc Exec, Harbor, Grocer, Mining Inc Exec, Wealth if we need it.
Knossos - Complete Observatory, Research.
Mycenae - Factory, Wealth
Pharsalos - Harbor, Grocer, Wealth.
Ephesus - Harbor, Grocer, Wealth.
Akkad - Complete Std. Ethanol Exec and keep building them.
Borsippa - Harbor, Grocer, University, Wealth.
Tiwanaku - complete Forge, University, Research.
Lagos - Complete Factory, Harbor, University, Wealth.
Machu Picchu - Complete Factory, Coal Plant, Wealth
Wonsan - Complete Coal Plant, Wealth.
Oporto - Complete Factory, Wealth
Guimaraes - Complete University, Wealth.
Evora - Complete University, Harbor, Wealth
P'yongyang - University, Research.
Braga - Complete Library, Harbor, Wealth.
Leiria - Complete Factory, Wealth.
Dur-Kurigalzu - Wealth
Namp'o - Complete Library, University, Wealth
Cheju - Complete Courthouse, Wealth
Pusan - Complete Coal Plant, Wealth
kwaDukuza - Complete Forge, Library, University, Wealth.
Khangela - keep Artists hired until we claim the Copper, complete Courthouse, Wealth
Ondini - Gift to Justinian?
eThekwini - Gift to Justinian?
Nongoma - Complete Granary, Library, Wealth.
Nobamba - change to Library, University, Research, run as many artists as possible to try to claim Banana tile with culture.

Workers:
From SCT's post - Workers need to hook the remaining Mining/Ethanol resources and start prechopping forests around Cuzco, Seoul and Babylon.

Spreading Corporations:
Std Ethanol:
Thebes, Pharsalos, Ephesus, Knossos, Piraeus, Delphi, Sparta, Mycenae, Nippur, Borsippa, Cuzco, Tiwanaku, Lagos, Machu Picchu, Seoul, Lisbon, Oporto, Guimaraes, Evora, and Argos.
Mining Inc.
Seoul, Lisbon, Babylon, Thebes, Knossos, Ephesus, Lagos, Dur-Kurigalzu, and Pusan.

If I can even get this many Exec's built?

Great People and Golden Ages:
In two turns, we expend an Artist and a Merchant to get another GA. Should the next Great Person born be a Merchant, change the Specialists to Scientists to try to gain a Great Scientist for our final GA.

Stalin has 13% of the available land. If we vassalize him we are at 56.6% land. We have 3 cities waiting to come out of revolt and so does Justinian while Asoka only has one city in revolt. Alltogether it puts us dangerously close to the dom limit. It would surely prevent us from earning more gold from captured cities and it might even force us to give up some cities. Perhaps it's better to continue the war against Stalin and capture his resource cities?
I concur that we are getting too close to the domination limit. The cities of Stallin's to target are:
Vladivostok Yaroslavl and Yakutsk.
That gets us two Iron tiles and a Coal tile.

Should we investigate Vandal to give to Justinian?
Should we give Ondini and eThekwini to Justinian?
 
Nice work with the plan.

I think there is still a few too many buildings scheduled. We really need to focus on building wealth and MI+SE exec's. I will try to propose some reductions to the build plan when I get access to the game tonight. I don't think we need to remove unhealthiness entirely - some cities can live with a reduction in the food supply from unhealthiness as long as it doesn't mean starvation. I also think we can cut down on the number of cities assigned for building space parts. Argos is better off building chariots because it generates a huge amount of gold this way (Meaning that we can save the Observatory and Laboratory).
 
Nice work with the plan.
Thanks. I forgot to thank you for posting about Public Transportation. I had misread the Civlopedia entry (not sure how) and had the impression it was only worth +2 health instead of +4. :rolleyes:

I think there is still a few too many buildings scheduled. We really need to focus on building wealth and MI+SE exec's. I will try to propose some reductions to the build plan when I get access to the game tonight. I don't think we need to remove unhealthiness entirely - some cities can live with a reduction in the food supply from unhealthiness as long as it doesn't mean starvation. I also think we can cut down on the number of cities assigned for building space parts. Argos is better off building chariots because it generates a huge amount of gold this way (Meaning that we can save the Observatory and Laboratory).
I understand what you are saying. I looked at Argos, Corinth and Coimbra and saw the number of hammers they are producing and couldn't help myself. ;)

Seoul, Cuzco and Babylon are on the list because of the number of forests they have to cut, being able to surge hammers at the end. They are not, now, big hammer producers without those forests.

Nippur and Thebes are on the list because all they have to do is produce a Laboratory and they get the SS parts bonus, so not many hammers are needed to prepare them. They are also not big hammer producers.

I understand your argument concerning Argos, the question is how much additional Gold will be needed once we change to Free Market and start bringing cities on line producing Wealth. If we are able to maintain 100% research and not lose Gold per turn, I do not see the advantage to gaining more Gold unless we are planning to change to Universal Suffrage to cash rush any late SS parts? The alternative might be to prepare the city for building SS parts should it be needed?
 
I understand your argument concerning Argos, the question is how much additional Gold will be needed once we change to Free Market and start bringing cities on line producing Wealth. If we are able to maintain 100% research and not lose Gold per turn, I do not see the advantage to gaining more Gold unless we are planning to change to Universal Suffrage to cash rush any late SS parts? The alternative might be to prepare the city for building SS parts should it be needed?

Cities can build research as well as gold. It's efficient to continue building units in Argos and switch other cities to research if we have more than enough gold.
 
Cities can build research as well as gold. It's efficient to continue building units in Argos and switch other cities to research if we have more than enough gold.
:thumbsup: That would help speed research. OK.

That means cities with Library, University and Observatory can switch to Research while the Forge, Factory and Power cities can focus on Wealth?
 
:thumbsup: That would help speed research. OK.

That means cities with Library, University and Observatory can switch to Research while the Forge, Factory and Power cities can focus on Wealth?

Building research is affected by hammer multipliers just as building wealth is. So it doesn't matter which city builds wealth and which research.
 
Building research is affected by hammer multipliers just as building wealth is. So it doesn't matter which city builds wealth and which research.
So the number of Beakers produced is not multiplied by the research buildings present?
 
leif erikson said:
City Builds:
Space Ship Building Cities:
Athens - Public Transportation, Grocer, Std Ethanol Exec, SS Thruster, SS Thruster
Sippar - Complete Apollo, Public Transportation, Grocer, Observatory, Laboratory, SS parts as they become available.
Nippur - Public Transportation, Laboratory, Wealth or Space Ship parts.
Cuzco - Harbor, Observatory, Laboratory, Wealth or SS parts.
Seoul - Complete Factory, Public TransportationCoal Plant, Grocer, Laboratory, Wealth or Space Ship parts.
Lisbon - Public Transportation, Observatory, Laboratory, Wealth or Space Ship parts.
Babylon - Complete Grocer, Observatory, Laboratory.
Thebes - Complete Laboratory, Harbor, SS Thrusters.
Corinth - Public Transportation, Laboratory, Wealth or Space Ship part
Argos - Harbor, Public Transportation, Observatory and Laboratory, SS parts as needed.,Chariots
Coimbra - Grocer, Public Transportation, Laboratory (?), Wealth or Space Ship parts.

Other cities:
Piraeus - Complete Observatory,Harbor Grocer, Std Ethanol Execs.
Delphi - Complete Factory, set to Wealth.
Sparta - Complete Mining Inc Exec, Harbor, Grocer, Mining Inc Exec, Wealth if we need it. or Science if wealth not needed
Knossos - Complete Observatory, Research. wealth
Mycenae - Factory, Wealth
Pharsalos - Harbor, Grocer, Wealth.
Ephesus - Harbor, Grocer, Wealth.
Akkad - Complete Std. Ethanol Exec and keep building them.
Borsippa - Harbor, Grocer, University, Wealth.
Tiwanaku - complete Forge, University, Research. wealth
Lagos - Complete Factory, Harbor, University, Wealth.
Machu Picchu - Complete Factory, Harbor,Coal Plant, Wealth
Wonsan - Complete Coal Plant, Wealth.
Oporto - Complete Factory, Wealth
Guimaraes - Complete University, Wealth.
Evora - Complete University, Harbor, Wealth
P'yongyang - UniversityMicro to get in two turns, Research.
Braga - Complete Library, Harbor, Wealth.
Leiria - Complete Factory, Wealth.
Dur-Kurigalzu - Wealth
Namp'o - Complete Library, University, Wealth
Cheju - Complete Courthouse, Wealth
Pusan - Complete Coal Plant, Wealth
kwaDukuza - Complete Forge, Library, University, Wealth.
Khangela - keep Artists hired until we claim the Copper, complete Courthouse, Wealth
Ondini - Gift to Justinian?Library, wealth
eThekwini - Gift to Justinian?Library, wealth
Nongoma - Complete Granary, Library, Wealth.
Nobamba - change to Library, University, Research, run as many artists as possible to try to claim Banana tile with culture. Claiming the banana is not particularly important

Workers:
From SCT's post - Workers need to hook the remaining Mining/Ethanol resources and start prechopping forests around Cuzco, Seoul and Babylon.

First convert forest preseves to lumbermills everywhere except in Babylons FC

Spreading Corporations:
Std Ethanol:
Thebes, Pharsalos, Ephesus, Knossos, Piraeus, Delphi, Sparta, Mycenae, Nippur, Borsippa, Cuzco, Tiwanaku, Lagos, Machu Picchu, Seoul, Lisbon, Oporto, Guimaraes, Evora, and Argos.
Mining Inc.
Seoul, Lisbon, Babylon, Thebes, Knossos, Ephesus, Lagos, Dur-Kurigalzu, and Pusan.

If I can even get this many Exec's built? Maybe not inside your turn set, but we should do our best to build 2-3 SE execs every turn

Great People and Golden Ages:
In two turns, we expend an Artist and a Merchant to get another GA. Should the next Great Person born be a Merchant, change the Specialists to Scientists to try to gain a Great Scientist for our final GA.


I concur that we are getting too close to the domination limit. The cities of Stallin's to target are:
Vladivostok Yaroslavl and Yakutsk.
That gets us two Iron tiles and a Coal tile.

Perhaps concentrate on Valdivostok and Yaroslavl. It's not easy to get units to Yakutsk very fast. We could also attack Hsung-nu with the units coming from Hlobane (nets one corn for SE). Zulu forces can attack Vandal paradropping from eThekwini (Use air ship to scout landing area)

Should we investigate Vandal to give to Justinian?
Should we give Ondini and eThekwini to Justinian?
No reason to give up these cities since maintenance is low there thanks to Versailles

In red all the stuff I suggest we skip and in green additional stuff :). I have eliminated some grocer builds. It might mean that some cities are slightly unhealthy but none of them will starve within the next 15 turns and in most cases they can be MM'ed out of starvation. You may have to shuffle the build orders a bit so that we are producing enbough wealth to keep science slider at 100% and so that we are producing at least 2 SE execs and 1 MI exec every turn.

When we switch cities to wealth, overflow hammers will be left "hanging". This means that doing a single turn on Hermitage has the additional benefit of removing these "dead" hammers. It has no importance in the space part cities, but in cities that will be producing wealth or science for the remainder of the game it does mean something.
 
leif erikson said:
Seoul, Cuzco and Babylon are on the list because of the number of forests they have to cut, being able to surge hammers at the end. They are not, now, big hammer producers without those forests.

These 3 cities will be huge hammer cities when all forest preserves are transformed into lumbermills. In Cuzco and Seul this can be done now while in Babylon we must wait until we have 2 more GP's for the last GA.

I suggest we prepare the following cities for space ship building:'

Athens, Thebes, Nippur, Corinth, Sippar, Babylon, Cuzco, Seul.

That may even be too many. Perhaps we don't need Corinth. Anyway, if we have surplus capacity we can build more SE execs in Athens and leave the thrusters for Corinth.
 
The spy in Cuzco should be a merchant instead. Seul can also be MM'ed now that borders have expanded. And Pyongyang needs MM'ing to get the University in two turns. Leiria needs an MP and so does many Korean cities. There is already a galleon with two chariots on their way and more should follow out of Argos.
 
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