SGOTM 09 - Xteam

[Frederiksberg]

But I don't know how I would do the calculation to compare the benefits of early radio (Christo) vs an extra golden age or two.

My guess is that very early Radio is not optimal because we don't have the hammers required to build Christo and we don't have all the civic options that make Christo powerful. Lib sling to Radio is thus my preference with the facts I have right now.

Really like starting settler at pop2, using 2 chops (improving to a windmill and water wheel where the two forests were) while growing city (producing warrior but switching to settler as chops come in) and then quickly completing the settler after the chops.

I aimed for that too but I found myself growing so quickly while trying to get the warrior fogbusters/escorts out that I ended up at a much higher pop than planned.

Starting settler at pop2 certainly seems reasonable. The important thing is to get the first settler out fast, it's less important what the pop count in our capital is when we start building him. I guess we could still accept some delay if we are settling in a spot that has better long term perspectives or if we can produce settler 3 and 4 faster to compensate for a delay in settler 1. We have to look ahead, 1st settler is not all important but the principle of getting the first few settlers out ASAP probably is.

I'm a bit unsure what the barbs will be like in this game and didn't want to take any chances with losing an early settler, how aggressive do you think we can be in settling that first city?
escort optional?

Good question since Gyathaar didn't reveal the barb setting. As far as I know it takes a while before barbs even start to spawn so if first city is founded fast the escort could be optional - particularly if he only has to travel a short distance outside our cultural borders. I think we need an estimate of when barbs in general start spawning and also when barb xbows start spawning because they will certainly be threatening.

Early in the game, GAs are not so valuable. Doubt that holding early GPs for later GAs is optimal.

I suppose that early GS's are best used for Academies and early GM's can either be settled or sent on a trade mission.

 

[Cactus Pete]

SCT, like very much what you've laid out here -- at least through turn 29 (not sure our first city shouldn't try and hook up a military resource [Why else research AH before The Wheel and Pottery?] and build the Oracle) -- but would feel more confident in relying on your intuition if you would spend some time playing with the corn-settle option. It is a more flexible approach and powerful in its own way, especially given the relative advantages of rexing at Quick speed. Suggest you might compare how each approach plays out if you settle the second city near the SW copper (better simulation of response to the unknown exigencies of the real map) and build the Oracle there. (I would delay Pottery rather than AH. If horses are available and we don't take advantage, we could fall significantly behind early if there are multiple AIs around.)

 

[Cactus Pete]

"Good question since Gyathaar didn't reveal the barb setting. As far as I know it takes a while before barbs even start to spawn so if first city is founded fast the escort could be optional - particularly if he only has to travel a short distance outside our cultural borders. I think we need an estimate of when barbs in general start spawning and also when barb xbows start spawning because they will certainly be threatening." My experience is that barb military units don't start spawning until 2000BC, about the same date that barbs will start to cross cultural borders. Before 2000, a settled city is safe; however, in these northern climes, the possibility of wolves (with 2 movement) usually means some sort of escort or fog busting is required to get the settler safely in place.

 

[ShannonCT]

Good question since Gyathaar didn't reveal the barb setting. As far as I know it takes a while before barbs even start to spawn so if first city is founded fast the escort could be optional - particularly if he only has to travel a short distance outside our cultural borders. I think we need an estimate of when barbs in general start spawning and also when barb xbows start spawning because they will certainly be threatening.

I've played several games through to rifling and haven't seen any barb Xbows. I've even used worldbuilder to give barbs IW, Archery, and Machinery, and hooked iron for them, and they didn't build any Xbows or upgrade any archers to Xbows. I've never seen a barb Xbow in any game. Longbows I have seen before.

I'm not too worried about barbs. We're cultural, so we get free border expansions, and we want to REX quickly, so the fog will get consumed quickly. And being near the coast will limit the directions from which barbs can come at us. Just getting some fogbuster in place and horse or copper hooked reasonably quickly should protect us.

If we are building city 2 within our cultural borders, or 1 tile away on flat, bare land, there's no need for an escort. Any farther, and an animal could get it.

 

[Frederiksberg]

I think we should compare turn numbers for first 3-4 settlers to get an idea of how much we gain in the short term by settling on corn.

If copper is available pottery sounds more important than AH. Primarily to get those granaries built ASAP - doubling growth is very important in cities with limited food and in cities where we can get happy faces from forest preserves.

 

[Cactus Pete]

I think we should compare turn numbers for first 3-4 settlers to get an idea of how much we gain in the short term by settling on corn. Hard to evaluate the potential advantages of getting advanced units out early when the map is unknown, but this is reasonable.

If copper is available pottery sounds more important than AH. Primarily to get those granaries built ASAP - doubling growth is very important in cities with limited food and in cities where we can get happy faces from forest preserves.

No doubt about the utility of granaries, but perhaps you are underestimating the possible benefits of our UU. Also thinking windmills, water wheels, roads, and even forest preserves may be better early improvements than cottages, and there are only so many worker turns.

 

[ShannonCT]

SCT, like very much what you've laid out here -- at least through turn 29 (not sure our first city shouldn't try and hook up a military resource [Why else research AH before The Wheel and Pottery?] and build the Oracle) -- but would feel more confident in relying on your intuition if you would spend some time playing with the corn-settle option. It is a more flexible approach and powerful in its own way, especially given the relative advantages of rexing at Quick speed. Suggest you might compare how each approach plays out if you settle the second city near the SW copper (better simulation of response to the unknown exigencies of the real map) and build the Oracle there. (I would delay Pottery rather than AH. If horses are available and we don't take advantage, we could fall significantly behind early if there are multiple AIs around.)

I see your point about wanting the second city to be built to grab copper and push toward the AI. I'm not sure I understand the reasoning behind building the Oracle in the second city. The capital will have 4-5 mills built by then and will have forests available for chopping. If you are worried about Prophet points in the capital, I was thinking that we could whip a library in a high-food city and grow GSs there before a Prophet can be born. If we're developing Athens as a long-term capital, we want it big and working lots of tiles and no specialists, so there's no risk of an early unwanted Prophet.

 

[Cactus Pete]

I see your point about wanting the second city to be built to grab copper and push toward the AI. I'm not sure I understand the reasoning behind building the Oracle in the second city. The capital will have 4-5 mills built by then and will have forests available for chopping. If you are worried about Prophet points in the capital, I was thinking that we could whip a library in a high-food city and grow GSs there before a Prophet can be born. If we're developing Athens as a long-term capital, we want it big and working lots of tiles and no specialists, so there's no risk of an early unwanted Prophet.

I was trying to avoid a Gprophet in our capital and also wanted to be free to build settlers and workers (interspersed with other builds during growth) there, rather than the Oracle. I agree with you that we should take little chance on missing the Oracle, given the opportunity to get Electricity, so I'm anxious to get started on it early (and still be able to rex and/or rush).

 

[PaulisKhan]

My tech strategy has been irrigation->mining->BW->poly->priesthood

The bonus commerce for mills from electricity gives us a big jump in the tech rate so I think it's important to get it online sooner rather than later, above and beyond the risk of losing out to the AI.
It also gets us the police state+environmentalism+slavery civics change in as soon as is reasonably possible.

I agree we should be able to whip a library in our gp farm (assuming we don't settle on the corn), long before the GP from the capital pops.
Keep in mind we also want an unpolluted GE pool so we need to keep an early city set aside to get the mids out asap.

 

[DJMGator13]

@SCT - does the second version of the practice game have the HOF mod loaded?

 

[ShannonCT]

@SCT - does the second version of the practice game have the HOF mod loaded?

No, I guess after I edited the worldbuilder file, I opened it back up in non-HOF mode. I can try to make a HOF version if it makes a difference.

 

[DJMGator13]

I wasn't positive that it was the save. BTS had locked up while I was loading a different save file from the HOF area and when I loaded up this one it forced a restart of BTS w/o the mod. I wanted to make sure I hadn't messed something up.

 

[Grover22]

Just checking in. I've been trying to keep up with all the posts. I got behind last weekend when I had trouble connecting and I had some houseguests. And you guys have been posting faster than I can process. I hope to get fully caught up tomorrow.

All enjoyable stuff, though.

 

[leif erikson]

Yes, we can certainly fill up a thread!

Having read little discussion on Worker moves and play order, I assume we will hold off starting on the actual save a bit more?

Good reading so far. I hope to play a bit of practice tomorrow.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Here's a look at the situation at turn 42 settling on the corn and establishing our second city near the copper. SCT, how does this compare with your practice? It will be difficult to get the Oracle out much faster than turn 45 or so, unless we do indeed build it in the capital and skip, say, AH (which means we need to discuss further).

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=208424&stc=1&d=1238134729

 

[Frederiksberg]

My tech strategy has been irrigation->mining->BW->poly->priesthood

The bonus commerce for mills from electricity gives us a big jump in the tech rate so I think it's important to get it online sooner rather than later, above and beyond the risk of losing out to the AI.
It also gets us the police state+environmentalism+slavery civics change in as soon as is reasonably possible.

This has also been my strategy in the few short tests I played.

Keep in mind we also want an unpolluted GE pool so we need to keep an early city set aside to get the mids out asap.

I'm not convinced that we should build the Pyramids. It's very expensive (same cost as 5 settlers!) and so far we have been focusing on building a cottage/windmill/watermill economy so the benefit of Representation is smaller than usual. Mids also come early so it's likely that there are other things we can build that will give a better return on the invested hammers. If we want engineer points I'd rather build HG since it's cheaper and it has a nice synergy with the REX'ing strategy.

On the discussion of where to build the Oracle I think Athens is the best choice and I suggest we limit the chopping as much as possible. Chopping before Math means sacrificing hammers and forests are needed for happiness in the early game. In one of my test games I got the Oracle pretty fast by maximizing overflow from pop rushing and letting these overflow hammers go into Oracle. This way the wonder penalty on whipping is not applied.

 

[ShannonCT]

I'm not convinced that we should build the Pyramids. It's very expensive (same cost as 5 settlers!) and so far we have been focusing on building a cottage/windmill/watermill economy so the benefit of Representation is smaller than usual. Mids also come early so it's likely that there are other things we can build that will give a better return on the invested hammers. If we want engineer points I'd rather build HG since it's cheaper and it has a nice synergy with the REX'ing strategy.

Without stone, Mids are too expensive. If we find stone, we'll have something to think about.

On the discussion of where to build the Oracle I think Athens is the best choice and I suggest we limit the chopping as much as possible. Chopping before Math means sacrificing hammers and forests are needed for happiness in the early game. In one of my test games I got the Oracle pretty fast by maximizing overflow from pop rushing and letting these overflow hammers go into Oracle. This way the wonder penalty on whipping is not applied.

Yes, I have been doing a 2pop whip on a granary with something like 18 hammers invested. But I have been also looking to chop 4 forests into Oracle, despite the hammer loss. In one of my practice games, Oracle went to the AI on turn 44. And I looked through the HOF and found several more games with the same settings where Oracle went to the AI on turn 44. I think we need to complete Oracle by turn 43 to be safe. If we miss out on Oracle, our chance for a laurel is severely harmed.

 

[ShannonCT]

Here's a look at the situation at turn 42 settling on the corn and establishing our second city near the copper. SCT, how does this compare with your practice? It will be difficult to get the Oracle out much faster than turn 45 or so, unless we do indeed build it in the capital and skip, say, AH (which means we need to discuss further).

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=208424&stc=1&d=1238134729

On this particular practice map, I think your placement of the third city is putting your strategy at a disadvantage compared with my capital placement. Who knows what the real map will bring. There may be a strategically important 3rd site that we want to reach out to before backfilling cities near the capital. But in terms of maximization through turn 42 on our practice map, saving a 2nd/3rd city site on the north coast seems like a winning move, because at pop2, it can work corn and fish and build workers in 4 turns and settlers in 6-7 turns. The capital quickly runs out of use for 2 high food tiles, so having 2 different cities sharing the 2 corn and 1 fish works well. Settling on corn loses its advantage quite early because after 2 corn are farmed in my game, its food is the same as yours.

AH is probably the best early tech to save until after Preisthood. Wheel is very important on quick speed. Pottery gives us the ability to 2pop whip a granary for overflow into Oracle. And wheat/cow/copper site really should build an early granary. I don't see any urgency in looking for horses. I'd much rather have copper.

I'll post a save shortly where I settle the cow/wheat/copper site first and corn/fish site second so we can compare results. I'll also try to match your 5 workers and copper hookup.


Edit: I've downloaded the starting save to have a closer look. I think our practice map matches what we can see in the real map. So what are people's thoughts on the scout move? North to reveal the coast or south to reveal the land? Either way could give us useful info about capital placement. If we find more seafood north, I think that gives stronger incentive to save the coast for a GP farm. If we find coast to the south, that might recommend against a southern settler move. More river or hills to the south would make a southern settler move better.

 

[Frederiksberg]

If we plan to settle on the corn I guess there is nothing the scout can discover to change this. If we plan to settle 1S or 1SE we need to know if there is more coast to the south and east. Moving 2N would give a Capital with an extraordinary growth. Has anyone checked this? Maybe we will be severely limited by happiness with so much food. I'm leaning towards sending the scout south unless 2N is feasible in which case checking the northern shore would be relevant.

 

[leif erikson]

Edit: I've downloaded the starting save to have a closer look. I think our practice map matches what we can see in the real map. So what are people's thoughts on the scout move? North to reveal the coast or south to reveal the land? Either way could give us useful info about capital placement. If we find more seafood north, I think that gives stronger incentive to save the coast for a GP farm. If we find coast to the south, that might recommend against a southern settler move. More river or hills to the south would make a southern settler move better.

Reading all your thoughts, it seems to me that the possible sites to settle include:
On the NE Corn
South to maximize land tiles
Two-tiles north of the start location

I have been reading with interest the power of Water Mills and Windmills. It would seem to me that we would want to maximize those in our capital? In order to keep all options open, I am thinking that the Scout moves either south and southwest or south and south. Should we find coast tiles down there, it might make the Corn look a better possibility? The only other consideration is if we are serious about the northern site for our capital, but it appears to be quite hammer poor to me and might serve better as a GP Farm. When I loaded up the save, I do not see a blue circle as on the screenie.