SGOTM 09 - Xteam

[Frederiksberg]

We really don't need The Wheel (counter to my experience, but this map just allows the workers to get where they're going eficiently without it) before Priesthood. By delaying Wheel, we can get to the Oracle and Electricity earlier.

I arrived at the same conclusion

1960BC save utilizing early revolt and late settler, with late Wheel (I made a careless error two turns earlier that prevented the second city from being at pop two on this date)

I played on just to make sure that Oracle could be built in time. Got it in turn 43, 3 cities and a pop of 12 total. Used only 2 chops. I played quite fast so this can probably be improved upon. I can try to redo tomorrow and compare at 1960BC.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Almost forgot . . . had unexpected gold from a chop that completed a warrior (plus 12 gold), allowing me to run research at 100%. Not sure whether this is desirable or not, but it needs to be watched out for.

Certainly - particularly after revolting to Police State. This was one of the tricks PaulisKhan was talking about. If we do this we should probably use both a chop and a pop to get a substantial amount of gold.

 

[PaulisKhan]

With no conquest rush on the cards and no hut pops our only early source of cash is going to be whip/chop over-over-flow.
The costs that we have to factor in include
1) worker intensive. Workers need to be in place for simultaneous chop
2) opportunity cost of the chopped forest - happiness/infrastructure/units

I am however very very happy to see that marble. We want to consider getting a good production city set up reasonably early to start utilising that resource as a hammer->gold multiplyer, with so many early-mid game marble wonders we can milk that marble for a lot of cash.

I am very happy/impressed with the grow to pop 2, build settler to share corn+claim fish, revolt to slavery during travel time strategy.

Will we use Sparta to fuel the rex, or will it whip a library after it builds its first settler and run two scientists?

Also, keep in mind that hills are now a valuable resource, much more so than we are used to thinking of them as, including tundra hills.

 

[Frederiksberg]

With no conquest rush on the cards and no hut pops our only early source of cash is going to be whip/chop over-over-flow.
The costs that we have to factor in include
1) worker intensive. Workers need to be in place for simultaneous chop
2) opportunity cost of the chopped forest - happiness/infrastructure/units

If we are going to do this very early worker turns is clearly a problem. I was thinking of combining a single pop rush with a single chop in Sparta. That would yield something like 30 gold. Not much but might save a couple of turns of research. Chopping/whipping gold this way becomes more attractive when we start having libraries because this means that additional gold is multiplied by 1.25 before it's turned into beakers.

I am however very very happy to see that marble. We want to consider getting a good production city set up reasonably early to start utilising that resource as a hammer->gold multiplyer, with so many early-mid game marble wonders we can milk that marble for a lot of cash.

In my test game 3rd city is founded on top of marble to speed up Oracle.

Will we use Sparta to fuel the rex, or will it whip a library after it builds its first settler and run two scientists?

Could support REX early on and then later start running scientists?

Also, keep in mind that hills are now a valuable resource, much more so than we are used to thinking of them as, including tundra hills.

Absolutely! Most of our early cities should be founded where there is hills and food.

 

[PaulisKhan]

The first pop whip + 1 forest chop I think has merit though the point you make about library multipliers is definitely valid. We'll want writing fairly early on so it's probably not too big of a deal to wait until then but we'll know more when the second and third cities get founded.

There's a city site to the south (possible 4th city) that claims wheat, cows and 3 wine. The cows and wheat allow it to support a total of 5 cottages in addition to the resource tiles. It has at least 4 forest tiles that could be chopped into a warrior, and still leave behind something of a patchwork pattern to maximise chances of forest regrowth for a later math/OR/forge enhanced chop (especially if we preserve the remaining forests).
Looking ahead, there's an option available there if we find we need more cash.
I also see a rice+fish moai and a cow+clams /coastal/cottage/watermill city.

I defintely like settling on the marble as city No. 3. ToA is a good wonder to sink hammers into after the Oracle is finished. It's one of the first marble wonders to be completed by the AI and will give us a return on our investment pretty quickly. That city has enough hills and the sheep to let it help out with other things later on, despite the inferior looking land.

Writing this did remind me of something I had heard but didn't know the code for.
Forest preserve increases the chance of forest growth in the neighbouring tiles, correct? presuming that no improvement is currently occupying the tile?
It might be in our best interests to be rather aggressive with our chops on certain tiles (surrounded by a large number of forest preserves). A hammer farm could pay for itself many times over and less emphasis would need to put into maximising the benefits of a forests one and only chop.

 

[Cactus Pete]

I played on just to make sure that Oracle could be built in time. Got it in turn 43, 3 cities and a pop of 12 total. Used only 2 chops. I played quite fast so this can probably be improved upon. I can try to redo tomorrow and compare at 1960BC.

Please do. At turn 34 in my game, I think Oracle was due in 10 without chops.

Agree that, at least until we have Writing, Sparta is settler/worker pump.

 

[leif erikson]

The presence of a galley before any civ has Sailing troubles me. What are the implications? Can you protest an SGOTM? Something like . . .

The X-team protests SGOTM9 on two grounds:

1. The presence of advanced barb units before game mechanics makes them possible. Since such units are possible in this game, it follows logically (from a false premise) that any and everything else is also possible. Optimal game play could therefore be penalized by completely unpredictable (normally impossible) events.

2. Teams are informed of the above-mentioned change in game mechanics by a reference to 'mean' barbs, which is subject to broad interpretation. While it is common practice to attempt to deduce the creator's intentions and behave accordingly, such mind reading is certainly not a Civ skill and could conceivably be aided by personal revelations not equally available to all teams.

It is understood that good intentions are at work here in order to provide an interesting challenge; nonetheless, the result is inappropriate. We suggest that either the game be called off before more time and effort is put into it or the changes in mechanics be immediately revealed to all teams.

Respectfully submitted,

The X-team

Gyathaar and Alan will see this as you have posted it here. They are monitoring all the threads.

Is your concern that Gyathaar may have given the Barbs additional techs beyond Sailing? Gyathaar did post in the sign up thread that none of the advanced techs we received were given to the Barbs. He also said in the maintenance thread that the Barbs were a bit meaner in this game.

Hi team,

I'm officially caught up (again), but I expect you guys will bury me under another mountain of posts today while I'm at work (again). I should have some time to dig myself out again tonight, and I'm looking forward to playing the revised practice save.

I'd like to request that I be taken out of the turnset rotation, though. I haven't been able to put in the time I expected to, and you guys are all way better players than I am. I am learning quite a bit, though, and I'm really enjoying watching this, so I'd like to stay on the team if that's ok. And perhaps when I feel I'm a little closer to pulling my weight I'll ask to be re-inserted into the rotation.

Cheers,
G22

This is not a problem. Please let me know when you are ready. Also, please do not skip yourself because you feel behind. We will help you through comments on your pre-play plan to get through a set. If you get into the middle of a set and feel completely lost then stop, save and post asking for help. We're very good at giving you more than you bargained for.

 

[Grover22]

Re: Founding on the marble...

If we do that, we just need masonry and not also wheel to have the marble count as hooked for the city on top of it, right?

Actually, I would have thought both masonry and wheel were necessary, but I did a little experiment myself. I started a scratch game as Willem van Orange, who starts with fishing and agriculture, but not wheel. I founded my capital on a corn tile, and the corn resource showed up in the resource list inside the capital, even though I didn't have roads yet.

Marble would work the same way, right?

 

[rrau]

Agriculture would let the corn show up. Unfortunately, you still have to have the appropriate techs before the resources become available - even if you are settled on them.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Gyathaar and Alan will see this as you have posted it here. They are monitoring all the threads.

Is your concern that Gyathaar may have given the Barbs additional techs beyond Sailing? My concern is that he may have done something to make the game unpredictable (otherwise impossible, as opposed to improbable) and that, if we don't protest, a precedent will be set. Gyathaar did post in the sign up thread that none of the advanced techs we received were given to the Barbs. Yes, but he didn't tell us that he gave them galleys, which we could have rightfully assumed they could not yet have, since they were not given Sailing. Are we therefore wise (or foolish) to protect ourselves from other advanced barb units, as SCT has suggested? He also said in the maintenance thread that the Barbs were a bit meaner in this game.

And what does that imply? If we guess correctly, will that gain an advantage? It shouldn't. Success at such quessing is not a Civ skill.

 

[ShannonCT]

Re: Founding on the marble...

If we do that, we just need masonry and not also wheel to have the marble count as hooked for the city on top of it, right?

Actually, I would have thought both masonry and wheel were necessary, but I did a little experiment myself. I started a scratch game as Willem van Orange, who starts with fishing and agriculture, but not wheel. I founded my capital on a corn tile, and the corn resource showed up in the resource list inside the capital, even though I didn't have roads yet.

Marble would work the same way, right?

That's right. We could found on the marble and chop Oracle there with the bonus after Masonry. With 3 chops we get 78 hammers, and another 8 hammers per turn from marble and a plains forest would complete the Oracle in 3 turns. This might let us to REX faster or build something else useful in Athens, like an airship.

 

[Cactus Pete]

That's right. We could found on the marble and chop Oracle there with the bonus after Masonry. With 3 chops we get 78 hammers, and another 8 hammers per turn from marble and a plains forest would complete the Oracle in 3 turns. This might let us to REX faster or build something else useful in Athens, like an airship.

Interesting, but might be best to wait and see where both the copper and horses are before settling our third city.

 

[Grover22]

I'm having fun with the practice save. One thing I'm noticing, which I'm sure you're all aware of, is that we can get screwed by rounding.

For instance, when I found city number two at 100% research, we fall to -1gpt. I have to drop research to 90% to get back to 0gpt, but that takes away 2 beakers/turn (typically from 12bpt to 10bpt), not just 1. So we're paying 2 beakers for 1 gold. That's a bad deal.

But if we run a single turn at 0% research to build up 12 gold in reserve, we can run for 12 turns at -1gpt at 100% research and keep all 12bpt for each of those turns. Over the 13-turn cycle, one turn off and 12 on, that's a total of 1*0 + 12*12 = 144 beakers, compared to 13 turns at 10bpt, 13*10 = 130 beakers.

 

[PaulisKhan]

Yup, standard practice should always be to run at 0% research or 100% research.

For a normal solo game it's ok to not do that so you don't get overwhelmed by micromanagement, but for this style of game where we're only playing short turn sets we should definitely stick to the "binary research" plan.

 

[leif erikson]

CP, please see this post in the maintenance thread concerning Barbs.

I PM'ed Alan and Gyathaar responded to your concern. Hope the answer is satisfactory.

 

[PaulisKhan]

I tend to clog threads up a bit with walls of text so I just wanted to reraise the topic of forests preserves and forest regrowth in case it got missed by tired eyes

this did remind me of something I had heard but didn't know the code for.
Forest preserve increases the chance of forest growth in the neighbouring tiles, correct? presuming that no improvement is currently occupying the tile?
It might be in our best interests to be rather aggressive with our chops on certain tiles (surrounded by a large number of forest preserves). A hammer farm could pay for itself many times over and less emphasis would need to put into maximising the benefits of a forests one and only chop.

Apologies if I broke protocol, still trying to find my feet here =)

 

[ShannonCT]

I'm having fun with the practice save. One thing I'm noticing, which I'm sure you're all aware of, is that we can get screwed by rounding.

For instance, when I found city number two at 100% research, we fall to -1gpt. I have to drop research to 90% to get back to 0gpt, but that takes away 2 beakers/turn (typically from 12bpt to 10bpt), not just 1. So we're paying 2 beakers for 1 gold. That's a bad deal.

But if we run a single turn at 0% research to build up 12 gold in reserve, we can run for 12 turns at -1gpt at 100% research and keep all 12bpt for each of those turns. Over the 13-turn cycle, one turn off and 12 on, that's a total of 1*0 + 12*12 = 144 beakers, compared to 13 turns at 10bpt, 13*10 = 130 beakers.

Good observation. I have been ignoring this in my practice games but should have been taking it into account after founding the second city.

In BtS, beakers, gold, and espionage are calculated to the nearest hundredth in each city, summed, and then rounded down. Later in the game, when you're making 1000 bpt, losing a fraction of a beaker hardly matters. But early in the game, it's much more significant.

So we should try to research at 100% when possible, but then turn research to 0% when we can't sustain 100%, unless researching at some other rate will get us an important tech one turn sooner. Or if you can find a research percentage where the sum of your cities' beakers and sum of gold are both integers, you'll avoid rounding losses that way too.

 

[ShannonCT]

I tend to clog threads up a bit with walls of text so I just wanted to reraise the topic of forests preserves and forest regrowth in case it got missed by tired eyes

Apologies if I broke protocol, still trying to find my feet here =)

I think that's a good idea for some of the city sites to the south and southwest. As far as I know, the chance of forest spreading to a tile depends on the number of forests adjacent to it, and forest preserves increase the spreading effect of forests. But in the capital, we'll probably want to replace any chopped forest with a cottage, and we'll want more preserves than usual to get it big enough to work 4 windmills, 4 watermills, and 2+ cottages.

 

[ShannonCT]

I think I'm ready to continue through BW, with the decision to build a settler at Pop2 (next turn) to settle 3N of the capital. Since that city doesn't need any land tile improvements, it doesn't make much sense to build a second worker before the settler.

So the plan for the next few turns:

Research BW
Grow to Pop2 and work lake
Farm second corn, and work corn farm when completed
Start windmill after corn farm
Don't expose the scout on open terrain

 

[PaulisKhan]

sounds good