SGOTM 10 - Maple Sporks

[Whosit]

Congrats on the Immortal Victory! I'm not brave enough to try that yet. I'm having trouble with a Monarch game at the moment, but to be fair, I did set some rules that really limited my expansion early game (Saladin, must get an Islamic AP: Popped a Priest for Theology, used Oracle to get Divine Right). I guess I wanted to share that, too. You're right, Norvin. Maybe we should talk to the higher powers about setting up a thread for sharing games (though I can see it getting really chaotic really quickly).

Sturick makes a good point, though. We can harass enemy Civs. If we're lucky and get horses, we can make a horse-back army and just pillage all the improvements of our nearest neighbor. Heck, if we're really good, we can keep them in the stone age (relatively speaking) for awhile. Main problem is that it would take a lot of resources that might be better spent elsewhere.

Also . . . .

Team Roster Check-ins

-nocho: no yes (my apologies)
-Norvin_Green: yes
-Sengir: yes
-Sirloin: no
-sturick: yes
-Whosit: yes

Oh Captain, should a message be sent to nocho and Sirloin to let them know our team thread is open? I don't think either have checked in (though I'm aware that nocho isn't available to play at the moment). But we probably want everyone to at least acknowledge that they've seen the thread.

 

[Norvin_Green]

Oh Captain, should a message be sent to nocho and Sirloin to let them know our team thread is open? I don't think either have checked in (though I'm aware that nocho isn't available to play at the moment). But we probably want everyone to at least acknowledge that they've seen the thread.

nocho checked in (see post #6)
I sent Sirloin a pm earlier today.
I tried playing a similar start tonight but I'm exhausted and had a hard time concentrating. I used serfdom and struggled after a few turns with what to do with my workers.

 

[AlanH]

Maybe we should talk to the higher powers about setting up a thread for sharing games (though I can see it getting really chaotic really quickly).

You should be able to do it in the Strategy forum. Write up your game so far and ask for suggestions as to how to proceed., or offer it for others to try.

 

[nocho]

I'll try to check things out every couple of days or so while I'm away . Just wanted to say that I agree that our main objective must be to grab as much land as possible as soon as possible, ie rex as someone said. Anything settled by AIs is land lost until nukes are around. A lot will depend obviously on the lay of the land and our nearest neighbours, but that harrassment idea sounds worth considering if the circumstances are good.
Civics-wise HR and bureau sound the most obvious. For the first time ever I might actually be tempted for serfdom over slavery, faster improvements sounds very important. Also with HR and the luxuries around the happy cap can be potentially quite high so there may be less need to slaver "redundant" food away, as it can be in the early stages of a normal game. Also, did I read somewhere that new cities get "some buildings" from the get-go? If that's the case, even less need for slavery. Otoh, serfdom obviously has advantages if we have a sizeable workforce and of course we only start with 1 worker. Mmm...
Mercantilism sounds quite okay, provided we can indeed hire specialists (buildings present in our cities). I'd also stay out of religion for a while so stay at paganism. It also saves on anarchy.
So in short, I'd take HR, Bur and Merc right away. And lean to serfdom over slavery, though possibly it can wait, especially if it's a turn of anachy extra anyway.

 

[Whosit]

We start with Granary, Forge, and, um . . . *checks earlier post* and an Aqueduct. So we can start with Engineers. The AI all go into Mercantilism, so they all end up popping Great Engineers sooner rather than later. It's possible that we'd start with a lighthouse, but I don't know since I haven't started settling on the coast yet. We should probably assume no lighthouse unless proven otherwise. Free lighthouses are only on Industrial or later starts.

I'd like to give Serfdom a shot. Changing 3 civics is 2 turns, but changing four also takes 2 turns. All cities start with pop 2 and with the Granary and Forge, it should be relatively easy to get some workers out quickly (we can chop the first out, too) especially if we get a mine or something going. I think it would be fairly easy to get 3 workers out (2 built) pretty quickly; with Serfdom, that would let us get everything up to speed right quickly, I think, hopefully giving us an advantage for spitting out settlers and troops.

 

[Sirloin]

Checking in; I was out of town since last Thurs.

I played three test games for 100 turns or so, since I've never started in an era other than ancient. Some thoughts:

Civics: I think serfdom is better than slavery. We already have basic infrastructure buildings, and we won't be burdened by typical early game happy caps. We have an amazing capital location (assuming we settle in place), and I'd like it to grow rather than whipping it hard. IF we decide to adopt religion (which is still an if), I think pacifism is stronger than OR. I originally tried OR, but its an expensive civic, and I found that I ended up running a lot of specialists. Every AI pops GEs all over the place since every city can run an engineer from the start.

Military. I think pre-nuke harasssment will definitely be the best strategy. We should rush whoever is next to us, and completely cripple them (without taking cities obviously). We'll be able to build GG pts and get some veterans ready for the real war, while ensuring that we have plenty of room to expand without a pesky neighbor spamming settlers into us. When we finally get nukes, we should be able to take their cities instantly.

Fogbusting is super super important because barb cities can really screw us up. In a test game, I had a barb city spawn in a super annoying spot and there wasn't a thing I could do.

As for economy, do we want to cottage at all? We're so late into the game, and our #1 priority should be tech'ing to Fission as fast as we can. By the time our cottages have finally grown, I think we would have a huge gap between where a SE would put us. I think we should go all farms. We hit the ground running, we can get Rep relatively soon, and later we can easily re-tool for heavy production.

Tech path. Since research to Fission is super important, I would go Edu-Lib-Astro(free). I wouldn't tech gunpowder, since AI's love to tech it and we can trade for it. With Edu and Astro, we can make some research powerhouses, then we can meander north in the tree to hit Rep and Rifling. Use rifles to stomp a neighbor and then beeline Fission.

For starting location, we should move everything except our starting settler to get a lay of the land. I like the idea of using anarchy to do extra scouting before we settle.

 

[Norvin_Green]

Ok, so everyone has checked in. When you guys are playing are you using a small map? The reason I mention that is because from my lone test game that I muddled through yesterday there wasn't a whole lot of room to REX.

 

[sturick]

No not alot of room to REX.
It would appear that our land to expand will be to the south and west based off of Sengirs fogbusting. Thank you btw for doing that...I suck at it!

Without looking at others suggestions I would say this.

Worker can start chopping the forest...If we settle in place and start a worker in Moscow then the chop will finish the worker.

Northern LB moves 1 NE.
Southern LB moves 1 SE.
Explorer moves 2 SW.
Second settlers movement will depend alot on what we find but for now I would say 2S.

As far as civics go.
HR - Bureau - Serfdom - Merc - Pagan
2 turns of anarchy but well worth it!

I think the biggest decision with the civic that we will need to make is Serfdom vs. Slavery.
I think that will be the focus of my next test game.
I suck at World Builder but playing with it to mirror what Moscow would look like seems like it would answer those questions.
If I get it to work I will post a save for you guys to look at.

Sirloins techpath seems sound to me!

 

[Norvin_Green]

Here is an attempt at a WB start. The problem is I made us isolated. I basically took the 9 x 9 that I could see and stuck our units in it. Let me know if its usable or if there is something I missed or want to add anything to it.

 

[Whosit]

I have to run some errands, so I'll look at your save when I get back. Meanwhile, quick report on a test game that I was playing (got to turn 81):

I don't know how feasible this part will be, as it all depends on what the terrain was setup. My capital site was high-food (but not as high food as the real one will be) with 3 seafood (1 fish, 2 clam) and a stone resource for some hammers. Settled second city fairly close, due to pretty good site and with maintenance in mind. Anyway, the neighbor on my island was Justinian, but there happened to be an isthmus that connected a large part of the island (where I started) from Justinians (not as large, and less appealing terrain) so I rushed/chopped a settler out to block it.

Oh, to note: I made 4 civic changes at the start: Hereditary Rule, Mercantilism, Serfdom, and Bureaucracy. Serfdom seemed to be working out pretty well, one kink came up that I'll mention later. OH, and the other big thing: Second city was rushing out cheap units, mainly archers, to fog-bust. Starting units (longbows and scout) either scouted or fog-busted once scouting was done. I did it quickly enough that only one barbarian unit ever spawned in my section of the island, and no barb cities popped up. So churning out cheap units fast is a good idea.

Libraries were a high priority, and "mature" cities ended up stagnating with an Engineer and 2 Scientists (realized recently: getting a Priest or two might be good to shoot for a Great Priest. Getting the Super Temple for whatever religion we are dealt will help our income). Spawned 2 Great Engineers relatively quickly, but the AI got theirs much faster, including Justinian (who was not in Pacifism). I guess AI get bonus GP points, too? I ended up getting the Sistine Chapel, semi-useful since we're running specialists. Actually, it turned out pretty good, as all new cities were generating +2 culture (since the governors always assign the 2nd citizen to an Engineer) and I didn't have to worry about monuments or theatres right off the bat. Also get Versailles. Engineer couldn't pop it in one go, but I did it because I would haves till gotten a lot of failure cash if I didn't get it, and it never hurts to get a "free" Palace.

Oh, right, the "kink" with Serfdom is just that sometimes my workers didn't have anything to do but road and chop jungle (probably should have chopped more forests, but I tend to conserve them, personally) simply because the "mature" cities were stagnated with their three specialists at happy caps. Though it did help newer cities get on their feet faster. I think I have a total of 4 workers currently and it's good enough to serve all the cities I have at the moment (5).

One thing to note: I was following the tech path Sirloin suggests, but I was beat to Liberalism by Justinian. Very odd. He had three cities in so-so locations (aside from the capital). He couldn't have had many more cottages than I did (my city #3 just built cottages because there wasn't much farmable land). He beat me to education just slightly, but then he was doing Liberalism in 30 turns, which dropped to 20 the next turn, and sped up a bit. It would have taken me about 50 turns to tech Liberalism, so I'm really confused. I guess that must be the AI bonus on Emperor. Justinian got Gunpowder from Liberalism, rather than Astronomy (I just went straight into Astro to get the Observatories) so I guess that's good.

I also ended up popping a Great Scientist. It would have partially bulbed Printing Press, but I build an Academy. Not sure if that was the right move, I suppose a second GS could have finished PP, but PP didn't seem terribly valuable to me, what with 3 hamlets to call my own. Resources weren't quite as a rich as our own start (have 1 dye in radius, that's pretty much it aside from seafood coast commerce) so we might do slightly better with 2 golds, if we can feed it.

Dunno if I have anything else to offer at the moment. Will play more, and will look at Norvin's save when I get back.

Edit: Oh, and just to be clear: I think the Specialist Economy is definitely the way to go.

 

[sturick]

Thank you so much Norvin...the only thing I noticed that was off was that the clam tile seemed to be on a lake as it gave an extra food.

I fixed it and the new save is at the bottom.

My results from a small test game.

I am just seeing how Serfdom affects our capital here.

T0: Found Moscow
I deleted the other settler and fortified a longbow in the city.
Worker stays in place and chops forest
Moscow starts building a worker.

T2: Out of anarchy

T3: Forest chopped

T4: Worker built...overflow into a workboat.
First worker builds a road
Second worker moves towards iron.

T5: First road finishes and worker moves to road the ivory tile for the happy.

T6: Workboat finishes and I start another.

T8: Road is completed to ivory but can't work it yet.
Worker is able to move to the rice tile and start to build a farm.
Fishing boats hook up fish tile.

T9: Road to iron is built but can't work it yet either...borders pop next turn.
Worker also moves to the rice and starts the farm.

T10: Rice finishes this turn but I choose to keep working the clams tile for one less food but one extra commerce...growth to size 3 next turn.

T11: Workers road the tile to the rice.

T12: I send both workers to build the iron mine.

T13: Workboat finishes and I hook up the clams. Moscow starts a library.
Workers also finish the iron mine so Moscow is at size 4 and working the fish, clam, rice, and iron tiles.

T14: workers move to the ivory tile and start a camp.

T15: Moscow grows to size 5 and works the ivory tile...probably better at this point to work the 3 2 crab tile rather than the 4 rice tile

T16: Worker team moves to mine the chopped hill.

T17: Moscow grows to size six and works the newly created mine.

T18: Workers run to the corn tile and start to farm it.

T20: Moscow grows to size 7 and reaches happy cap. The library just completed so I stop working the crab tile and the new citizen both become scientists. Growth in 7 still and temple due in four.

I think this is where I will end my little test.

Here is a pic of Moscow after only 20 turns...not bad!

I don't want to go too much further since in our real game we will have a second city to think about.

But this little experiment has shown me that I like having the worker chop out another worker and running serfdom seems like the right play...I will try running Slavery next time.

The other thing I realized is that this city could become a fantastic GP farm by building the National Epic and National Park here. We have plenty of food and probably 7 forests that we can preserve. So we would have at least 10 Specialists maybe more here. Since we have an abbreviated start the National Park would provide us with instant specialists....just some more food for thought.

 

[Norvin_Green]

I'm glad the save was usable and thanks for the clam fix. I did two sample games (small map, b&s, no huts, etc.) and on one the map was TIGHT. The other I was alone but with enough room for a good 8-10 cities. Plus there were a few 10-15 tile islands nearby. Something interesting happened as I had a high food city I went library early so I was running the engineer and 2 scientists. I figured if I popped a GS that I could bulb or academy him. I think this is how the AI is getting their wonders so much earlier.

 

[sturick]

Now that I think about it...I think your map was just fine Norvin!

I am not used to the lighthouse right off the bat. I think the lighthouse was providing the extra food not a lake tile. Our cultural borders hadn't popped yet so the fish and crabs had one less food. That difference is what made me notice in the first place.

You are right about the tight quarters too. Hopefully we will have enough room to found at least 6-8 cities. Otherwise we will struggle to tech to Fission.

 

[Whosit]

Ohhhh, that's what I was supposed to do with Norvin's map. I blame my misunderstanding on the late hour.

I've played a lot further in my other test game, though I had to call it off at 3 am because it was just too late. BUT I had just started to build my first nuke! It was 1951. Hopefully the team can do better!

Anyway, something else to note: We need more than Fission to get nukes: We need Rocketry, too, and I made a diversion to Assembly Line for factories (and built a lot of Nuclear Power Plants). I got to know BUFFY better and it really is pretty cool. The new combat calculator is somewhere between awesome and absurd (a bit too much information). Even with all the tech diversions, I'm still the only one with Fission because I don't think the AI guns for it. And let's really hope that the map maker saw fit to provide us with Uranium near the capital! (Luckily enough, that's where the green stuff was in my test game).

I never managed to pull off the "pillage neighbor to death strategy" partly because I was too focused on infrastructure, fog-busting, getting enough troops to keep my neighbor from declaring on me, and generally trying to keep the world happy with me. Again, I'm sure the team can handle that better than me.

I like the National Park/Epic idea. Though the question is: When will we make that run to Biology? And we'll have to be extra careful not to chop those forests. But yeah, if we build all the buildings with specialist slots and are running Rep, that'll be huge! Another possible combination would be National Park + Oxford if we plan to run Rep the whole time. 7-8 Specs from the Park plus whatever we'd get from the benefit of all that food (easily 4-6 I think). Then use one of the GS we'll surely get to build an academy, maybe more academies in other high science cities, but then we just settle them in the Capital and their beaker count will probably triple. Anyway, just another thought.

 

[Sirloin]

I also played one of my test games through nukes. I got fission at approx ~1890, and then also noticed the Rocketry requirement. It still works out decently since you can build the MP immediately. However, beelining Fission and then Beelining Rocketry is not optimal, based on the value we can gain from their pre-reqs. I think a good general plan for late Tech post Riflery is: Steel -> SciMethod -> Physics -> Artillery -> Electricity -> Fission -> Rocketry.

We can sqeeze in Communism if we want StateProp or the GSpy, but since we'll probably have a well-contained empire up to that point I don't think we'll need SP yet.

I also didn't get a chance to try any harassment, since I was mainly just checking econ stuff. I traded for MilTrad and got a big Cossack force ready but then Shaka attacked me and I had to use them on defense. I do want to experiment with it since I think it will be strong. I will be doing another test game using the tech path I suggested above along with more of a military focus. Also, in the game I played I was unbelievably unlucky getting any Scientists to pop for an Academy (I think I lost a 60% and 70% and an 80%), and didn't get my Academy up until Physics.

Norvin, thanks for WB'ing up a start for us to play around with. Do you think it would be useful to do one thats not isolated and has a "realistic" surrounding landmass so we can all play a full test game on the same map, and then compare notes on strategies? I'd be willing to whip one up if people are interested.

 

[Norvin_Green]

Sirloin, I think that would be a great idea. I actually was going to do that last night but realized I wouldn't have enough time.

 

[Whosit]

As a side note, I expect that we will also want to grab Ecology shortly after getting nukes so that we can scrub away the expected nuclear fallout.

 

[nocho]

I just wanted to say kudos for all the test games you guys are doing! I'm sure valuable info will come out of those. Wish I could do the same, but no time for it. I'll hope I can make up for that later somehow...

 

[Norvin_Green]

Let's just hope all this testing is leading us somewhere good (like not last place ). Hope your holidays are going well nocho!

 

[Whosit]

I think we can put our tests to good use. I'm still playing around with my late-game test to get a better grasp of modern era tactics. I've played that far before, but it's been awhile.

A couple things to note: We should probably not start nuking until we are ready to commit all the way. Every time we nuke, it's a -1 penalty with everyone (-2 against the person we actually hit). I don't think it's like Civ III where everyone will eventually auto-declare, but it'll make it much more likely that we'll be attacked. We also get to choose between the Tactical Nuke and the ICBM. I used a few Tacticals, but I've read that the ICBMs do more damage, so I'll play with that. Tacticals are much cheaper, but they have a short range (4 tiles) and have to be based in a city or a fort (note the fort). They can also be carried by subs, I believe, so we may want to consider building a small fleet in order to hit more distant cities.

Good thing about nukes: They severely weaken enemy troops and can wipe out whole stacks if the RNG favors you (though 2 nukes will probably do it). So, conceivably, if we build enough, position them well (ICBMs can hit anywhere, of course), we may be able to end the war before it begins by nuking the enemy's main stacks into nothing and basically roll over whatever troops they have left. (Based on my play, we also want to target cities where the enemy houses their navy and/or air force.)

And we'll probably want a huge stockpile. Worse comes to worse, we can nuke the stacks of enemy troops that assault our homeland if we have to, though that would be a tactic of final recourse because we'll waste our improvements, create fallout, and possibly harm our own soldiers (of course, if we can nuke the stack of transports before they get to our shores, all the better).

The biggest hurdle I think we'll face is maintaining a standing army large enough to take on the whole world (that may be a distinct possibility), large enough to take out any given opponent quickly, and enough nukes to obliterate the world a few times over. I'm running a deficit in my game, but perhaps we should determine which techs we critically need and simply shut off research at that point (we will probably need to use the cultural slider to keep people happy as I'm sure a few Civs will stop trading with us). Sorry, I'm focusing on late-game, but everyone else seems to have early game well in hand.