SGOTM 10 - One Short Straw

[babybluepants]

Yeah, I saw mdy's post a few days ago, but we're not gonna be in golden age anytime soon... We have a free civic switch coming up when we switch into Rep, so I guess we could do a round of slavery in anticipation of switching back then. I'm not sure it's entirely justified atm, though. Would be if we could rush 5 unis during. Also, I'm not sure I'd whip a worker in Yaroslavl'. We do need it to grow and build lib/uni/NE. Probably wouldn't build anything else there.

The +2 happy is big. The only other resource we're seeing now is the sugar, which is pretty far. A few of our cities could use growing to 20 in the late research phase, so we should be accumulating it. I've been thinking about this a bit. I think Yaroslavl' will be most efficient for gpp at pop 13 (it tops out on +food there). St. Pete and Moscow have a lot of overlap. Moscow could be hyper-efficient up to, like, size 23-24, but it would really hurt St. Pete. In fact, now that we've taken away the crab and lost ivory/FP, St. Pete's looking a bit weak long-term... Novgorod could also grow big and have a very decent hammer rate.

 

[mdy]

Do we really need a missionary in St Pete. With our religion present in Moscow and St Petesburg it will probably spread to Yaroslav before it is ready to become our primary GP farm.

I agree that we could do with a few more workers but 4 seems excessive. Perhaps we could go settler-worker-settler in the capital instead?

If we founded the iron city next it might be better to put the 5th university there instead of Yaroslav. There would be more forests to chop and it would mean that Yaroslav could go workboat-library-National Epic. The additional workboats could be constructed more efficiently in St Pete after the monastry.

 

[babybluepants]

If we founded the iron city next it might be better to put the 5th university there instead of Yaroslav. There would be more forests to chop and it would mean that Yaroslav could go workboat-library-National Epic. The additional workboats could be constructed more efficiently in St Pete after the monastry.

That sounds good, except that with 8-9 Rep scientists running there eventually and random commerce, a university would be worth something. What is our schedule for Oxford anyway? Moscow's likely to be occupied by expansion for a while still...

 

[shyuhe]

Moscow won't be the last city to build a university - the other cities will get them first.

Apologies in whipping - I forgot we're in caste -_- So we can't really whip until we hit a GA (and swap to slavery on the first turn and swap back to caste at the end).

I would prefer to build a missionary because we definitely need the religion in Yaroslav and can't rely on lucky spread for it.

So...

revised:

Moscow - go settler/worker/worker
St. P - finish monastery (7 turns), then missionary
Rostov - finish WB (chop)--WB (scout) -- library; fire artists and set them to work, hire bonus spec. as a scientist
Yaroslav - WB--WB--worker--WB --library
Novgorod - Galley --settler if we see a good spot to the west, otherwise worker.

Once Yaroslav gets its nets out, we can try converting St. P into more of a production city. Grassland shops under caste are 1/3 right now.

I've put more workers into the queue so that we can workshop more aggressively. Since we'll likely be staying in caste for a while, we'll need shops to build universities. Alternatively, we can go farm and whip them in a GA, but we'd likely need to build the Taj to go that route. Thoughts?

St. P can build workers more efficiently once it gets its next GS in 11 turns. Until then, it's production is cramped.

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

I agree with Shyuhe about the missionary, it's possible we get a free spread of confu in the GPfarm but I would not rely on it.
I am OK with the change in the queues, though we have to pay attention to not loose hammers in Novgorod library, but it should be OK.

I would workshop St Pet once Yaro gets the NE and the thrid GP is out (soon ).
Actually, even if it was a typo, I like the "revolt in slavery/OR during a GA -> whip 5 unis -> switch back in caste/pacifism" plan. We could burn our next scientist to do this. It's definately worth it if we can get all 5 unis whipped (I like to repeat the obvious ).

@Babybluepants: I am not sure growing Moscow up to size 23/24 and screw St Pet is a good solution because of the caps. Once we start the conquering, we'll likely loose traded resources and get war unhappyness -> it's better to have both cities <20 then than one size 13 and the other size 25 with 5 unhappy guys That's my opinion at least. It can change any moment though

Cheers

 

[shyuhe]

I'll look into the GA issue, but we won't be in place to do it for 11 turns anyways.

Do people want more farms or shops?

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

Do people want more farms or shops?

When do you plan to play? (also how many turns?)
I will post my thoughts by cities in a few (3/4) hours

 

[babybluepants]

Just to clarify, I'm not opposed to burning the next GS on a golden age. It takes some careful timing, though. I don't think our newer cities will be in a position to whip universities in 11t. We're getting to Lib/Const in 18t or so? A switch to Rep/OR/Slav then sounds reasonable, I guess.

@RRRaskolnikov, I meant it because we'll most likely stay in bureau for the duration of the research phase, and I prefer running hammers through bureau. At pop 20+, Moscow can generate 80hpt. I actually think we could stand a chance of reversing the other FP, if we run a couple of artists for a while, and have St. Pete be a makeshift secondary gp farm in the long-term. Is that just silly? Gandhi would probably up his cultural output to match.

@shyuhe, I'm still opposed to Yaroslavl' building workers, especially if we're burning a GS on a golden age... I think Novgorod definitely needs some farms atm. We're a bit short on worker turns there, so maybe one more guy can head over in a bit... Once again, I think we'll need to build some LB's soon. We only have 4 with 5 cities right now, and we're about to settle a separate island.

On farms/workshops and what have you, I started calculating a bit, but it's a mess atm. Needs a lot more work, but I don't have time right now. I think long-term happiness and health are the issues. We're likely looking at some emancipation problems late tech phase. Moscow doesn't really need workshops yet, I feel, since we have a pretty great hammer count there already, and it'll need to grow quickly whenever it gets a break from settlers. Novgorod has some hills to mine yet. Rostov should get workshops, but probably can't work them for a little while yet.

EDIT: Removed my calcs, as they need more work.

EDIT: IIRC, barb galleys started showing up late 1500's in my early test games. A trireme to protect the 3 fish / crab / clam would be nice sometime soon.

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

@BBBP: there is 0 points growing more than pop 20 to increase production. best hammer tile is shop (assuming no whipping). If you farm to run engeener, you are loosing production. Thus being size > 20 is only good for science
While we are in pacifism, I think having a second GPfarm (St pet and Yaro) is a good idea indeeed After that, I think St pet won't be able to follow Yaro in GP generation...

Anyway, I'll post my own mess soon, so we can discuss on concrete things

edit: I am postive than emancipation issues can be mitigated via culture wonders (Dylan wonder, Hollywood, and Broadway) together with the usual means. Most of the time (more so when you have the regular number of opponents and not 17), you can stay in caste till the end. We'll have to ask our vassals to switch off this silly civic ofc.

 

[mdy]

I've put more workers into the queue so that we can workshop more aggressively.

Do we need to be that aggressive at workshopping? We won't be able to work many until we get state property. I think workshops will be more useful in the long run than farms.

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

EDIT: IIRC, barb galleys started showing up late 1500's in my early test games. A trireme to protect the 3 fish / crab / clam would be nice sometime soon.

I wondered about that... I thought once you got optics, barb galleys stop spawning, but I must be off about this obviously (unless your galleys were built by barb cities?)

 

[babybluepants]

^ Really?

I think a couple of the others were reporting barb galley issues, as well. Was there something different about our early test files?

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

Don't be confused I actually think I am wrong about this... I am looking for a barb thread currently...

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

Originally Posted by DanF5771
"Spawn: The spawning of new barbarian units will stop after the game has reached the Renaissance era (bNoBarbUnits = 1 in CIV4EraInfos.xml). The game's era is calculated by averaging the current eras of the individual players (including the usual rounding down to the lower integer -- if everybody has advanced to the Renaissance but only Toku is still power-teching through the Medieval era, the barbs will still spawn)."

Spawns are over

edit: though a trireme could have some use still in case an old one appears perhaps?
edit2: complete barbs info here
edit3: I spoke too fast... I think every players need to be in renai to stop spawns, but that's a question of turns...

 

[babybluepants]

(including the usual rounding down to the lower integer -- if everybody has advanced to the Renaissance but only Toku is still power-teching through the Medieval era, the barbs will still spawn).

I think we're the only ones in renaissance right now, but that should change soon.
EDIT: just saw your "edit3"

edit: though a trireme could have some use still in case an old one appears perhaps?

Or, if some get built in one of the 17 barb cities.

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

Or, if some get built in one of the 17 barb cities.

My suggestions for improvements:

Moscow: farm the green, shop the brown -> add more shops when the city works all its tiles, to achieve 0 food surplus working all tiles (have to be reworked at communism/bio ofc)

St Pet: farms -> shops everything once we leave pacifism

Novgorod: As much shops as the food surplus allows

Rostov: shops everywhere

Yaro : one shop

 

[babybluepants]

Moscow: needs farms first, I think. We should grow it as fast as possible, while building uni/OU, since it's stuck building settlers/workers for the most part.

Novgorod: needs a couple of farms first to speed up growth, I think. Also, we could use some roads back to Gandhi. Especially if we're looking to expand west eventually, and if we'll be building some units there (horses, iron).

Rostov: I had one farm, rest shops there. I'll have to check... In either case, two seafood should be sufficient for now, so maybe shop a couple first.

Yaro: mine the hill > road it > workshop; needs roads soonish, as well (inc. iron).

New city: iron/silver? needs some worker turns, but also at least one LB.

btw, I think we should build the missionary, as well.

 

[shyuhe]

I think we've fogbusted the nearby coast and there's the 7 tile rule for how far inland barbs will go to attack nets. I think we're ok without guarding our seafood for now as all of the coastline is fogbusted. The barb continent may be a spawn point, so we may need a trireme depending on how that rounds out.

So in summary:

Moscow - go settler/worker/worker
St. P - finish monastery (7 turns), then missionary
Rostov - finish WB (chop)--WB (scout) -- library; fire artists and set them to work, hire bonus spec. as a scientist
Yaroslav - WB--WB--worker--WB --library
Novgorod - Galley --settler if we see a good spot to the west, otherwise worker.

Workers will start farming near Moscow/St. P, Yaroslav worker mines (and roads), Rostov worker builds workshops, Novgorod worker camps then farms (2 tiles) then shops.

Continue current GP production plans (GS in 11 from St. P).

Diplo - nothing new; send scouting WB to find last two AI. Maybe we'll get a tech discount if they've finished something useful (unlikely). At least it'll give us tabs on liberalism.

Wonders - I don't see any room to start the Taj But nobody has the tech yet so we should be ok for now.

New cities - fish/iron, settle 1S of iron.

Teching - Leave research on liberalism while banking gold for a 100% run. Turn slider on once the monastery in St. P completes. We'll be getting libraries online shortly and there's no need to hurry to liberalism until we can get there running 100%.

I plan to play through the birth of the next GS.

@bdp - I don't think we need LB yet, as our cities are ok with and there are no barbs running around on our continent. As long as we watch for barb incursions from the sea (a trireme is starting to sound like a good idea), we should be safe. I'd prefer to run warriors as MP as I don't think our iron is hooked up yet. I don't think we can build a farm near Rostov yet as it requires chain irrigation. So I'll set the worker to workshop the brown tiles first until the Moscow workers finish irrigating the riverside tiles.

@all - I plan to play early Sunday so let me know of suggestions etc.

 

[babybluepants]

If you look at the power graph, two teams seem to have reached the military build-up stage now...

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

@all - I plan to play early Sunday so let me know of suggestions etc.

Welcome Shyuhe in the "we explode deadlines!!!" club... As president, I 'd like to welcome you!

Seriously, I forgot to post but I agree with your previously posted plan... Good luck for your turns.