SGOTM 10 - Reigning Cats and Dogs

[AlanH]

Welcome to your SGOTM 10 team thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game here, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest. I hope you enjoy the game.

The starting saves will become available on the SGOTM Progress and Results page on May 7th, at midnight, server local time.

Thanks again to Gyathaar for coming up with the variant and developing the map.

You are Elizabeth of England, and your mission is simply to destroy the barbarians, who have evolved considerably in this game, having learnt a few tricks from their cousins in Civ4. They have advanced weaponry, they can build cities, and they have an uncanny capability to learn new technologies.

All victory conditions are switched on, but the winning team will be the one that achieves the destruction of the barbarian nation earliest.

Here's the start.

Map Parameters
Playable Civ - England
Opponents - Six: Mayans, Byzantines, Dutch, Inca, Sumerians, Barbarians.
World size - Standard
Difficulty - Emperor
Landform - Mystery
Barbarians - Non-standard

The map is handbuilt, and therefore may not have a standard configuration.

Game mods:
The game uses the default rules as defined in the SGOTM Reference Thread, with the following modifications:

- Galleys can never enter ocean tiles.
- There are some unusual advanced/modified Barbarian units.
- The Barbarians have research capabilities, and can build cities and wonders.

The SGOTM Mediterranean resources are included, as you can see from the starting screenshot. If you have played SGOTM 9 then you will be ready. Other players will need to download and unzip this small graphics mod pack. Details are provided in the SGOTM Reference Thread..

Please ensure that you have incuded the line: NoAIPatrol=0 in your conquests.ini text file.

Please visit the following links to ensure that you are adequately prepared, skipping references to PtW or Vanilla versions of Civ3.

The GOTM Reference Thread.
The SGOTM Reference Thread.

Notes:

A. ONLY Conquests version 1.22 (C3C) is supported for this SGOTM. All teams will compete for a single award.

B. All teams must play the sponsored variant - the laurels will be awarded for the fastest destruction of the Barbarian Nation. The wooden spoons will go to the team with the lowest final score.

C. You MUST play from the start file assigned to your team. All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.

Have fun

 

[Beorn-eL-Feared]

Ok so here's where the discussion is so far:

He made 3 settlers before ever thinking about a granary ... we might want to take a page out of his playbook

Sounds very reasonable - that would make my proposed start to be:
W+W+C, MP+S+MP+S, then see the food amount around. More food around = another settler, less food = granary, another 5 food pump close-by = warrior MP to be sent.

If we're going for early settlers, get one out ASAP - so that's more like W+C+S, W+MP+S, etc.

GA thoughts:
MoWs make for a long wait. But early-IA is of course good timing. And we get a GA by killing Privateers, so no need to start wars.

Self-build Lighthouse can be timed for early MA, and is another strong candidate. Easy to do with a pre-build.

Final option is to capture Lighthouse or Colossus, and build anything else.

Again, until we know the nature of the beast, I suspect we won't be able to make a proper choice.

 

[Beorn-eL-Feared]

Other useful facts:
Bold topics are still to be discussed and settled on

The BO has been argued this way:
#1: W+W+W[MP]+W[MP]+S+C+Gran+S
#2: W+W+C, W[MP]+S+W[MP]+S
#3: W+C+S, W+W[MP]+S, etc.
#4: W+W+C, S+W[MP]+W[MP], S+C+...?

GA wonders:
Colossus, GLH, Smith, Magellan's.

Fog scouting:

Barbs:
The barbarians are just another civ, which happen to be called barbarians, but it is still slightly ambiguous as to wether or not they control our friends the goody-hut spawners. Waiting for input there.

Plan:
- Go for a slingshot, be it for monarchy or republic. This difficulty should make very feasible.
- Roll up our client state businessmen's sleeves and make sure everyone of our AI friends has the manpower to help crush some barbies' hearts. This sentence officially nicknames any AI ally "Ken".
- Get early settlers, 2 or 3 of them, as per a page out of Wacken's book. 2 land and a naval scout before the first, too. So long as there are significant food bonuses around for settling, and so long as it is reasonable not to have an infra-built-in capital, no granary.
- Map the coastlines ASAP before barb boats spam the seas, then establish ourselves as an economical power. By the end of the MA, become a military force and use MoW's to get through to barbland. We can call this land "Québec", and take me as a barbaric example.
- Before MoW's, play careful at sea: give every transport escorts. After MoW's, hope this is over and/or retain a large enough MoW force to keep coastlines controlled.

This post is meant to be commented by everyone, content and omissions-wise. I will edit it for a bit while it is relevant to.

 

[Beorn-eL-Feared]

My comments:

Please confirm that, in a normal game, sea combats and sea tile occupation induce WW.

About the BO, I'm all for eldar's original W+W opening, but I believe we also need a C in there. so my suggestion is
#4: W+W+C, S+W[MP]+W[MP], S+C+...?

1st W could go into a strict concentric path until we have radius 4->8 covered. 2nd could go towards the center of the map and try to find something brilliant.

The coastline mappings and the 4th plan point are new additions of mine, I'll take them back if they sound bad.

Team name (shortened) should be "Cats&Dogs", imho.

Edit: I would PM AlanH the following, feel free to add or comment:

an uncanny capability to learn new technologies

There are goodie huts too, and they can pop normal stupid barbs.

Are the barb units in the civilopedia, or is it supposed to be a surprise?

Kind of... You can see their stats there, but I used text descriptions of other units so you would not have to download a special mod just for that.

I assume by that:
1- Barbs are a renamed civ (say the vikings, wild guess there ) and our friends the goody hut bubbas are the old fashionned barbs
2- The vikings, although looking grumpy and being in a generally bad mood, will have increased support and decreased research costs to palliate for the AW mode
3- Their units will be pretty much the same, tech-wise, but we'll have a few stats surprises
4- No WW will be induced by (non-vikings) barbs

My biggest concern is with #1 and #4; #1 has pretty much been said but I wanted a confirmation, blame english as my second language, and #4 might have some importance with the government ... I don't really expect comments on #2 and 3 though, but a guy tries

My guess on the vikings is upon 2 factors: the traits, given the map is probably 'pelago like for lizzie's comfort, and the beard, which is barbaric à souhait.

- end PM -

 

[eldar]

Checking in...
Maybe a bit more Wacken-espionage on recent games is in order - just what did they build in between settlers? Were they all timed with growth to size 3? (That's the main concern here: with the food bonii, we'll get to size 3 quickly.)

 

[eldar]

Here's something we might find useful; I'm coming up with a first-20.

 

[eldar]

..and 3rd post in a row. Here's my idea for a first 20:

T0 Settle in place
Worker->BG
Build: Warrior
Research: Writing
Work: centre+Game: +2F, +3S
(2F, 3S)
T1 Worker Mines[1/6]
(4F, 6S)
T2 (Worker Mines[2/6])
Work: centre+BG(for extra commerce): +2F, +2S
(6F, 8S)
T3 (Worker Mines[3/6])
(8F, 10S->Warrior)
T4 Warrior starts exploring
(Worker Mines[4/6])
Build: Curragh
Work: centre+Game: +2F, +3S
(10F, 3S)
T5 (Worker Mines[5/6])
(12F, 6S)
T6 (Worker Mines[6/6])
Work: centre+BG: +2F, +3S
(14F, 9S)
T7 Worker Roads[1/3]
(16F, 12S)
T8 (Worker Roads[2/3])
(18F, 15S->Curragh)
T9 Curragh starts exploring
(Worker Roads[3/3])
Build: Settler
Work: centre+BG+Game(with growth): +2F, +5S
(20F->Size 2, 5S)
(Culture growth, citizen moved from Game (AFTER shields!)->Wheat)
T10 Worker->Wheat
Work: centre+BG+Game: +2F, +5S
(2F, 10S)
T11 Worker Irrigates[1/4]
Work: centre+BG+Wheat: +3F, +3S
(5F, 13S)
T12 (Worker Irrigates[2/4])
Work: centre+BG+Wheat: +3F, +3S
(8F, 16S)
T13 (Worker Irrigates[3/4])
Work: centre+BG+Game: +2F, +5S
(10F, 21S)
T14 (Worker Irrigates[4/4])
Work: centre+BG+Game: +2F, +5S
(12F, 26S)
T15 Worker Roads[1/3]
Work: centre+BG+Wheat: +4F, +3S
(16F, 29S)
T16 (Worker Roads[2/3])
(20F->Size 3, 32S->Settler->Size 1)
T17 Settler goes to City Site #2
(Worker Roads[3/3])
Build: Warrior
Work: centre+BG: +2F, +3S
(2F, 3S)
T18 Worker[W]->BG
(4F, 6S)
T19 Worker[N]->Plains
(6F, 9S)
T20 Worker Irrigates[1/4]
Work: centre+Wheat: +4F, +1S
(10F, 10S->Warrior)

...and attached is a 3000BC save to back up this sequence.

 

[madviking]

Viking checking in.

 

[jb1964]

Vikings in a barb skin? Seems redundant.

Thanks for the test file. I'm going to play a seat-of-the-pants start and see what I get.

I hate going Monarchy. Just an opinion. We'll see if it's a must as we explore.

Seven total civs? You get eight on a standard map. I bet our barb friends have a double dose of secluded land.

 

[Tubby Rower]

where am I? I'll likely be gone for a week or so after this weekend. My wife will be induced if she doesn't have the baby before Monday. So if I go AWOL.. that's why. I'll be back at the latest Wednesday (a week and a half from now).

 

[Beorn-eL-Feared]

Following Tub's recommendation to just go all out max food, here's what I got. My plan was that once chopped, the irrigated game makes for a faster source of food than wheat.

Pre-Turn: Settle TestShire on the spot

T1.
Worker->Game
Build: Warrior
Research: Writing
Work: centre, Game: +2F, +3S
(2F, 3S)
T2.
Worker chops [1/4]
Work: centre, Game: +2F, +3S
(4F, 6S)
T3.
Worker chops [2/4]
Work: centre, BG(for extra commerce): +2F, +2S
(6F, 8S)
T4.
Worker chops [3/4]
Work: centre, BG: +2F, +2S
(8F, 10S -> Warrior)
T5.
Build: Curragh
Worker chops [4/4]
Work: centre, BG: +2F, +2S
(10F, 10+2s)
T6.
Worker irrigates game [1/4]
Work: centre, BG: +2F, +2S
(12F, 14s)
T7.
Worker irrigates game [2/4]
Work: centre+Clams(for 2 extra commerce): +2F, +1S
(14F, 15S -> Curragh)
T8.
Build: Warrior
Worker irrigates game [3/4]
Work: centre, BG: +2F, +2S
(16F, 2s)
T9.
Worker irrigates game [4/4]
Work: centre, BG: +2F, +2S
(18F, 4s)
T10.
Worker moves to BG
Work: centre, clams: +2F, +1S
(20F, 6s -> Growth gives +1s)
T11.
Worker mines BG [1/6]
Work: centre, game, Wheat: +4F, +2S
(4F, 8s)
T12.
Worker mines BG [2/6]
Work: centre, game, Wheat: +4F, +2S
(8F, 10s -> Warrior)
T13.
Build: Settler
Worker mines BG [3/6]
Work: centre, game, Wheat: +4F, +2S
(12F, 4s)
T14.
Worker mines BG [4/6]
Work: centre, BG, Wheat: +4F, +2S
(16F, 6s)
T15.
Worker mines BG [5/6]
Work: centre, BG, Wheat: +4F, +2S
(20F, 10s -> Growth gives +2s)
T16.
Worker mines BG [6/6]
Work: centre, BG, Wheat, Game: +4F, +4S
(4F, 16s)
T17.
Worker roads BG [1/3]
Work: centre, BG, Wheat, Game: +4F, +4S
(8F, 20s)
T18.
Worker mines BG [2/3]
Work: centre, BG, Wheat, Game: +4F, +4S
(12F, 24s)
T19.
Worker roads BG [3/3]
Work: centre, BG, Wheat, Game: +4F, +4S
(16F, 28s -> Growth gives +2s -> Settler on growth)
T20.
Worker moves to Wheat
Work: centre, BG, Wheat, Game: +4F, +4S
(4F, 4s )



Beorn's:
107 beakers gathered, size 2 +0/20 food
2 warriors (T4, T12), 1 curragh (T7), settler has just popped on T20

eldar's:
111 beakers gathered, size 1 +6/20 food
1 warrior (T4), 1 curragh (T9), settler has been out on T16, warrior due next turn

Not roading the game makes for a slightly faster settler (probably 2 turns, perhaps 1) but decreases the beaker count. However, we end up size 2, which will help in the long run. We road the game and delay the settler 1 more turn, which sets us 5-6 turns late on eldar's at this point, but the wheat is being irrigated, whereas his game is not yet chopped. This should speed up my 3rd city vs his, food-wise.

I vote for mine, but I'm biased and will go with the team concensus anyways.

 

[soul_warrior]

check in at the Royal Arrmory Hotel.

 

[Beorn-eL-Feared]

I was toying around with random ideas about the start when I realised: we only have a 4 turn settler factory IF the grass forest hides a BG. Else, we're stuck as a 2 turn worker or a 6 turn settler.

It's a 1 in 3 chance I'm not really ready to take for granted, esp. since it implies 2 early chops. The options we have regarding the planning right now are:
- irrigate wheat and game, using the extra food with the whip
- keep the game forested, irrigate wheat early and hope for a BG
- chop everything early and decide from there
- assume a flat grass and work ASAP to a 6T war/settler

Thus it sparked in me the idea that with all these chops ahead, and considering we will be making hairys unless there is a BG, we could consider making an early worker, chop everything ASAP to get granary and barracks within turn 25, and start the 6 turn pump within turn 35. This could be advantageous to our development if the settler(s)-first starts do not achieve the same score. I'll try my hand at a few builds and see how it goes.

 

[Tubby Rower]

remember that each new city is 2 extra food per turn. I think that the chops should go into the settlers and get just enough warriors for defense. The first warrior should scout the immediate area though.

just my thoughts

 

[Beorn-eL-Feared]

I just tested a few ways around it, and the best I could do for an early-worker granary rush was a turn 37 pump, got writing on turn 36, and settlers on every 6th turn thereafter (43, 49...)

However, eldar's way has a settler out on turn 16 and I put it on the fields on turn 20. That's 15-20 turns of a second city, possibly around food bonuses: don't think it's worth it to leave that kind of empire growth out. If you do, I'll try and work out the BO I used and see where it could be improved.

 

[soul_warrior]

my vote goes for the early settler out.
eladr is the master of the first 20, is he not?

 

[WackenOpenAir]

remember that each new city is 2 extra food per turn.

[lurk] Ah, you guys are starting to understand it [/lurk]

 

[eldar]

I hadn't started on the numbers for a 4-turner. Hmm.

As long as we mine one of the plains (to be worked on growth), we have a perfect (6+8+7+9) 4-turn factory from 5-7.

I would suggest popping a second worker (after the 2nd settler?) to help speed the preparation along.

 

[Beorn-eL-Feared]

Sounds much better than my plan

So let's use your build and find a way to include a worker-granary thingy somewhere between the 2nd and 4th settlers, how's that?

 

[eldar]

I'd like to think we can decide between Settler #2 and Granary depending upon what the first warrior discovers. Basically as soon as we decide on Granary, that's when we chop the game forest. Do we forego roading though to speed up worker prep (given most worked tile will be river tiles anyway?) We can miss out Worker #2 that way. Tell you what, I'll try a modified version of my W+C+S+W sequence, but with no roading.