SGOTM 10 - Xteam

[leif erikson]

I know it isn't a tradition in either the GOTM or the SGOTM, but if we sign a treaty, let's let them live for twenty turns and then we can kill them.

Dishonorable play makes for a very shallow victory.

Sorry, didn't know it was considered dishonorable. I learned it as a technique to speed vistory. I will certainly live with whatever the team decides.

 

[scoutsout]

Sorry, didn't know it was considered dishonorable. I learned it as a technique to speed vistory. I will certainly live with whatever the team decides.

Mistfit prolly didn't warn you... but you've got a couple o' RBCiv/LKHouseRule/honorable SG types on Xteam now.

Hint #1 shoul've been when I 'fessed up to a reload after a worker mis-click. (A true cheater wouldn't have logged it.) And if you read the current COTM spoiler, you'll see that I've asked AlanH and Ainwood to pull my current game out if there's any question about my use of SGLs. (I didn't catch the thread where those were discussed until after I played.)

I'm not "Perfect", but I do at least try to play honorably. It's... something that SG types value.

Edit: I should've put some sort of smiley in there...to lighten the tone.

 

[Capt Buttkick]

I think there's a huge difference between cheating and breaking deals.
Breaking deals have its drawbacks, albeit limited considering the benefits. Also, it's traceable and open. I don't like the "everybody's doing it" argument much, but I think if we want to win the competition, we should consider using every advantage we might have over the AI cause our opponent teams (at least most of them) will.

That said, I have no probs with letting the Incas live 20 turns. In fact, breaking that deal would be a waste of our rep imhso.

Will try to play later today. I have a minibreak coming up Wednesday-Saturday and I won't have play time Tuesday either. I'll let you know early tomorrow (latest) if I can't play today so we can rearrange the roster as needed.

Looks like quite a bloodbath to send a poor, innocent builder into
mistfit

 

[leif erikson]

I PM'ed Alan and told him that, since no one said no to adding StrictlyRockers to the roster, that we would be happy to have him join us. I've PM'ed him and asked him to join us in the thread.

Thanks.

 

[Capt Buttkick]

Turn 0 - 150 BC Hire a tax collector in York. Switch a horse build somewhere for a sword. Move a sword out of Olly and onto a mountain to defend a horse against an Incan archer.
We’re building lots of libs. I think it’ll be a while before they’ll be useful so switch to stuff, mainly rax, troops in cities which already have rax.

Objectives for turn set: finish Inca, position for Sums. We’ve considered making peace with Inca, but I’d rather just finish them. They’re only Monarchy up, and eliminating flip risks is always a priority for me

IBT: Nottingham Sword --> Sword
Hua Worker --> Worker
The Dutch are building GLib. More importantly: so are the Barbs

Turn 1 - 130 BC Hasting is about to riot due to WW. MM to starve for a couple of turns.
Hire a tax collector in Macho.
Move troops towards Vilca and Cori.

IBT: Settler/spear moves out of Cori.
Tiwa riots due to less resistance.
York Sword --> Sword
Hastings Sword --> Sword
Canterbury Lib --> Sword

Turn 2 - 110 BC Move army outside Vilcab.
London has grown, MM to growth, switch lib to Sword due next turn.

IBT: London Sword --> Sword

Turn 3 - 90 BC Battle for Vilcab:
Sword army defeats reg spear loosing a HP and we take Vilcabamba, start rax.
Outside Vilcab: First blood! 5/5 --> 2/5 defeats a reg archer on a mountain.

Turn 4 - 70 BC Outside Vilcab: Army defeats 3/3 archer fortified on mountain, 1 HP lost.
Battle for Cori:
4/4 --> 1/4 horse retreats against 3/3 spear.
4/4 --> 1/4 horse retreats against 3/3 spear.
4/4 --> 1/4 sword defeats 3/3 spear and we take Corihuayrachina
Liverpool founded, starts spear (for whipping before we go to war against Sums).

IBT: Nottingham: Sword --> Sword

Turn 5 - 50 BC Outside Vilcab:
Army looses another HP while defeating a 3/3 archer.
Any hope of a twofer is gone (checked it every turn ).

IBT:
London Sword --> Sword
York Sword --> Sword
Canterbury Sword --> Sword
Hua riots as resistance goes down.
Barbs build Hanging gardens.

Turn 6 - 30 BC Dover founded, starts rax.
Outside Dover: 4/4 Sword looses to 3/3 --> 2/4 archer.

IBT: Resistance in Macho has ended --> riots.
Olly has less resistance --> riots.

Turn 7 - 10 BC Outside Vilcas:
5/5 sword defeats 2/4 archer for our second leader (rename unit “You the man!&#8221.

IBT: London sword --> sword
Chichen Itza finishe Hanging gardens.

Turn 8 - 10 AD Battle for Vilcas:
4/4 --> 1/4 Sword defeats 3/3 spear.
Loose 3-4 HPs off our first army against 3/3 spear and we capture Vilcas.
Inca are history , start rax.
Outside Vilcas: 4/4 horse looses to 3/3 settler-escorting spear, but takes off a HP.
4/4 sword defeats 2/4 spear.
Switch lux and cycle through cities.

IBT: Nottingham Sword --> Sword

Turn 9 - 30 AD The other civs have Feud, maybe aim to get as many techs as we can from the Sums in a peace deal?

IBT: York Sword --> Sword
Hastings Sword --> Sword
Canterbury Sword --> Sword
Coventry Lib --> Sword

Turn 10 - 50 AD Not much.

Let London finish the sword it’s on currently, then MM for 10 spt (wrong tile got chosen on growth).

 

[Mistfit]

Nice Turns Capt!

Now if the others could get off their butts and get leaders we'd be all set

 

[Mistfit]

figure I'll sneak one of these in

Capt - Army #2
Leif - Up next... Army #3 and FP
Bugs On Deck
Gator
Scout
Mistfit - Army #1

 

[DJMGator13]

Nice twin spin for leaders. Getting them early is important.

Let's keep that Leader train a rollin.

 

[scoutsout]

Okay... let's see... we've got a pair of armies, but no screenshots.

...and Mistfit got a MGL before me... That's all right by me. (I much prefer warmongering in Republic to warmongering in Anarchy...)

...and the Inca are gassed, and we're getting set to start in on Sumeria... perhaps doing a bit of "pointy-stick-research" along the way....

Nice turns, Capt!

 

[leif erikson]

Nice turn set Capt!

And Thanks Mistfit for reminding me that I've got it.

Let's see, looking at the save, the Maya will give us Feudalism, and MDI, for Spice, Iron and 450 Gold. Looks like a good idea to me? Swords to MDI and Sumeria is in trouble.

I have been thinking and want to ask about the concept of honorable play? In this scenario, our task is to wipe out the Barb Nation as quickly as we can with neighbors that are all aligned with us in a permanent war with the Barb Nation. The way I would like to play this is to align with my neighbors against a common enemy and trade tech cooperatively to get ahead of our foe. Then we could execute a joint amphibious attack at several points on his continent, in unison, to break their forces and wrap up an easy victory.

Unfortunately, the software has limitations that will not allow us to do any such thing. The amphibious warfare capabilities of the AI are well know to be inferior. The AI does not recognize cooperative effort and, at Emperor, would seek to charge us more than they would their enemy, the Barb Nation.

Thus, the software forces on us the only option we really have, to be barbarians ourselves and take our continent and its resources so that we can use them as efficiently as possible to defeat the common foe. In doing so, we become the common foe ourselves. I see little honor in this, just a method we must use to try to be the fastest to victory lane.

And so my question is, relative to other software issues, what dishonor is there in breaking a peace deal? In fact, in trying to play honorably, the software punishes us by increased chance of cultural flips and by having that civ around to make an alliance with someone else when all of our armies are committed deep in, say, the northern part of the continent fighting Sumeria.

In addition to this, when you defeat a nation, you ought to get some tech knowledge as you now own their scientific community and all their governmental storage vaults. But the software doesn't recognize that and so the only way to play pointy stick research is to break deals, enforced on us by rules within the software package.

Having said all of that, we are here to enjoy the game as much as we are here to try to win. And if the enjoyment for my teamates is lessened by the concept of breaking a commitment, I am willing to play under that handicap. However, I think we should understand what that handicap is and decide which way we wish to go. As far as I am concerned, I am playing against a bunch of electrons that are stacked against me and I enjoy getting the upper hand on them, when and if I can?

Where is that altar to the RNG God?

EDIT - Sorry, almost forgot. I've got it and will try to play tomorrow night...

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Can we make it sort of a team rule that we need some screenshots unless absolutely nothing happens?

Remember gents that you are not writing a log, you are telling a story. Unless you want to write a thousand words, include a picture.

Playing honorably is just something that a lot of us have gotten used to. There isn't any rules requiring it. I play civ for the challenges. The harder the challenge the more I enjoy it. Overcoming the challenge by using exploits and loopholes just doesn't do it for me. I could care less if every other team is using them, I don't. I want to beat them and the AI without using them.

 

[Capt Buttkick]

I usually put pics in my posts (I'll refer to my last turn set for this).
However, yesterday I had limited time on my hands and wanted to finish my turns b/c I'm pretty sure I won't have play time today. I tried to avoid rushing play (although I missed the tech deal with the Maya) and decided not to fiddle with pics (I have no real editing program so Paint have to do the job, slowly...).
I'll post pics, when I can. I enjoy telling stories (check out the link in my sig if you haven't already).

Breaking deals: I like leif's reasoning here. In many games, playing honourable may add to the game experience. In this case, I feel like it doesn't. We've already done lots of dishonourable stuff, judging by human relations (for instance, I have no habit of getting myself into trouble and letting my friends fight for me, all the while planning to backstab them and take their stuff at the next opportunity).
@ Bugs: I think most civ players that make it to the higher levels use some form of loophole. In vanilla and PTW, RCP was the way to go. In all Civ3 games, GLib can be conquered and lead you from deep in the Middle ages and straight into Modern times. There is no logic in that, just a game mechanic gone . I haven't played with you enough to know whether you use any loopholes, but in most cases above monarch level the question isn't whether loopholes are taken advantage of or not, but what loopholes are (mis)used.

All that said: it's obviously less for dishonourable players to turn honourable than the other way around. So if leif and I haven't convinced you yet, I say we don't break deals

 

[scoutsout]

For suggested reading, see the discussion on tactics on the Realms Beyond Civilzation site.

...and let me see if I can distill this down from an abstract discussion to a tactical one.

Taken one way, breaking our treaty with the Inca could be viewed as "dastardly". Even the more dogmatic in the RBCiv/SG crowd would view this as a "legal play"... though many would avoid it, as many in the SG crowd place a high value on in-game reputation. It appears to me that busting the deal with the Inca would not be an "exploit", but a dastardly act.

So the act would be "dishonorable" in-game, but not exploitative.

@Bugs: Tracking?

Having said that, I want to make it clear to the team that Bugs isn't the only one opposed to busting our reputation at this juncture.

@Capt, Leif: You guys haven't played much with me either.

Honor aside, those who have played with me know that there is one thing I value above all else in-game.

Options.

Please understand, I am not opposed to busting our reputation on principle alone. I view it is a dastardly act, but a 'legal' one. I am opposed to busting our reputation for a short-term tactical gain that may limit our options in the longer term.

I prefer to play honorably. I will go along with a dastardly, (though not exploitative) tactic if the situation warrants it.

No offense, but you guys simply haven't convinced me that busting our reputation will give us a strategic advantage in this game. In my opinion, it will get us a short-lived tactical advantage that will be forgotten before we ever land troops on The Barbarian Continent.

...and at some point between the time we finish the Inca and deal with the Barbarians, we still have to contend with the Maya, the Byzantines, and the Dutch.

If limit our ability to negotiate 20-turn deals with the other civs, we might make this game harder than it needs to be by busting this deal. If we make it harder on ourselves to form alliances and treaties, we may quickly find ourselves in an AWE game... in a government that is simply not durable enough for AW.

In short, busting our reputation at this early juncture will probably limit our options.

 

[Capt Buttkick]

We have finished with the Inca
I was discussing on general terms, not with a set rep breaking opportunity in mind.
I agree with scout that at this time, our rep is worth a lot more than a deal break.

 

[scoutsout]

We have finished with the Inca

Well then... (I don't know why I missed that... but I might've caught it with a screenshot. )

Okay... so all of that was a hypothetical discussion then. So let me re-state my position. If you want me to go along with a dastardly act, you're going to have to

1. Convince me it'll give us a strategic advantage, not just a tactical one.
2. Come up with a specific dastardly act, not just a hypothetical one.

 

[leif erikson]

Scout - I tried to use the Inca deal as a real life example to make it seem more real.

And, actually, we will not face this in our coming war with Sumeria as we want to preserve them for their scientific trait. So this discussion may be tabled at the moment. Hopefully, we will not need to continue it, but shall see down the road when it comes time for the Dutch or Maya. The Byzantines are also scientific and we prolly should keep them around a while, although at a reduced state.

I read the RBCiv link Scout provided. I understand most of their logic but, given the software, don't agree with all of it. This is not the time or place for the discussion on whether I agree or not, because, who am I to dispute it. I appreciate the link and reading has provided valuable insight into where you are coming from.

I have a question concerning screen shots. When I play, I run CivAssist2 along with C3C. I have tried running Deskscan as well in order to take screenies, but this will not work for me. So how do you guys take screenies? What do you use? Sacrificng CivAssist to take screenies isn't happening for me as the in-game checks required take way too much time during each turn and I miss too many important things. I'm willing if someone can help me to understand how?

EDIT - BTW, this link is to BamSpeedy's article concerning AI attitudes. If you've never read it, it is worth the read as it explains what values the software uses (the developers, if you will) for these acts and, for me, those values reflect what is considered evil, dastardly, etc.

 

[Mistfit]

Can we make it sort of a team rule that we need some screenshots unless absolutely nothing happens?

Please keep in mind that the computer I use to play civ is hooked up to the internet Via dial-up. The best connection speed I've ever gottem out of it is 26.8kbps. I try to include pictures but it is really frustrating with the slow speed.

I have no real editing program so Paint have to do the job, slowly...

irfanview is a great freeware program that I use for cropping and saving screenies. No text or anything but it I like the way it works for screenies. Reminder for screenshots: If it is a big picture and you want to resize it; save it first as a .jpg and then reload it and resize it. .jpg's resize much clearer than .bpm's


I agree with all of the above discussion of Dick Dastardly

 

[DJMGator13]

With 2 sword armies I think we can polish of our continent without a need for any MA's or breaking peace deals. For the most part I play honourable but there are times when I will take advantage of some deals, especially when in a xOTM competition and you know others will be using those tactics.

@leif - Screenshot assistant works nicely also, but when it is running it takes pictures of anything you place in the clipboard. (ie if you are copying in excel or word, it will takes a screenie of it instead). The program is in the utility section and here is a link.

 

[scoutsout]

...concerning screen shots. When I play, I run CivAssist2 along with C3C. I have tried ...So how do you guys take screenies? What do you use?

Mistfit will no doubt laugh, but I run a crummy old edition of Paint Shop Pro... I think it's actually 16-bit software. If you google Paint Shop Pro and "abandonware" you might find it out on the net somewhere. As an image editor it's pretty crude by today's standards, but I find it easier to use (yet more powerful) than the silly "Paint" program that comes with Windows.

There are much better programs for doing art and touching up photos, but this old program is GREAT for dotmapping and cropping screenshots.

With that running in the background a simple "Print Screen" (next to F12) dumps a bitmap copy of the screen to the Windows clipboard. Then I paste that into the image editor.

That's how I do it.

 

[leif erikson]

Thanks guys, I'm going to give it a try with Screen Shot Assist.

I'm off and running, Sumeria is on my radar...