scoutsout
Minstrel Boy
I have this sneaking suspicion I won't recognize this game when it comes back around to me....
SGOTM 10 - Xteam
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Sir Bugsy
Civ.D.
Pre-flight – 650 AD – MM gains a few shillings and cuts some time off several builds. I swap out the galley and the horse to something we can use now. An MDI and an aqueduct. We are really thin along our coast. I will divert several new builds to homeland defense. We can also gain two techs, chivalry and Education, and possibly a third with navigation. I know everyone wants to keep the ToA active so I will post the question to the team and wait until tomorrow evening to play.
Day Two - On with the game.
First, I dial up Sumeria and sell them Chemistry for Education and Chivalry plus all their pocket change (8g). Theodora has Banking, Astronomy and Music Theory. So for Chemistry and our WM, I get Astronomy, her TM & 41G. The Maya are up Navigation and Banking. It may make sense to leave them with one city just so we can do some pointy stick research. We’ll see when they are down to one city.
IBT – There are now four Barbarian fleets plying our coastal waters. We lose an MDI on a mountain and kill two LBs.
Metallurgy=> Mil Tradition (science up to 50%, due in 6 turns.)
In traditional AI brilliance, the Maya start Bach’s.
660 AD – Start marching on Yax. Move all but a MDI out of Chichen Itza. Take out a wounded LB and march on Palenque. Send several units towards the northeast where it appears the barbs are headed. Swap several builds over to knights.
IBT – A barb MDI and two Mayan LB are dropped off within two tiles of each other in the northeast. Chichen Itza flips. We lose an MDI.
670 – Lose a regular MDI to the barb. Did I mention how I hate regular units? Bombard and recapture Chichen Itza. March on Yax and Palenque. Attacks next turn.
IBT – The Barbs drop off two pikes, two LB and a horse.
680 – First, we’ll move every unit north that we can. The Barb horse can attack our forted MDI in Umma, or a wounded MDI in the open. I hope they fall for the wounded bait.
At Yax, once our trebs get the range we red line the three muskets defending, then kill them.
At Palenque – I lose three MDI so I stop the attack and await the arrival of the armies next turn.
After studying the situation at Umma, if our MDI survives and if they march on Umma, we will be in a serious hurt locker. I full rush a musket there. We are starting to see some WW, so lux goes up 10%. Cross my fingers and hit enter…
IBT – The best of both worlds. The horse attacks our redlined MDI and kills him while the main SOD moves next to Umma.
690 – Sometimes I hate this game. I attack Palenque with our MDI army and with the loss of 1 hp, take out an elite musket. Then I attack a regular musket with a sword army and only take off one hp and lose the army.
And people wonder why I am grumpy.
@ Umma – Lose one of our new knights to a pike. Kill a pike, kill a LB and the horse. Umma should survive no problem.
IBT – Outside Umma – The barbs don’t attack the city and we lose an MDI. Another fleet shows up in the east and this one is headed towards Liverpool. Luckily we have two knights that were just commissioned. @ Palenque we go 2 for 3 and lose an MDI. Oh, and the Dutch send an archer north into our lands.
700 – I make the first demand of William. He says sure and stays. Then we kill the two remaining barbs in the north and move eastward to meet the new threat.
Then at Palenque. We bombard the vet Musket and kill him flawlessly with our MDI army. There is only a reg spear and our MDI army goes down to 5hp before killing it.
The Mayans are down to three cities and will now give us navigation for peace. One of those cities may be offshore.
Since Theodora wil be our last enemy, I dial her up and sell her metallurgy for navigation, PP, WM and 80G. The Mayans do have an offshore island. The Dutch have three.
Science drops a notch. If the Barbs land between Machu and Tikal, I’ll have three attackers ready for them.
IBT – Three Barbs are dropped off.
710 – Kill two of the three barbs. Lose an MDI. Start marching south towards the next Mayan capitol. William’s archer has wandered off somewhere.
Our knight retreats from the Barb LB and we lose a slave.
720 – More marching and healing. Kill the Barb LB. We have some seriously unhappy people.
IBT – Mil Tradition => Physics Our first cav is commissioned.
730 – Upgrade several knights.
IBT – Chichen Itza flips again. This time we lose a pike.
740 – We recapture Chichen Itza. Continue the starvation diet.
Set up to take Lagartero next turn.
IBT – The Barbs are now doing coastal bombardment.
750 - @ Lagartero – Knock the four defenders down to yellow. Our cavs help out and we capture the city.
After Action – Sorry gents, that was a less than stellar set of turns. We can get banking for peace. Grab the last city on our lands, then go for peace. William is next. We should be able to toss him off the continent quickly. The question to the team is: do we want to go after these offshore cities? Other than flip risk, I’m thinking no.
Here is the situation in the southeast:
Save: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm10/Xteam_SG010_AD0750_01.SAV
Day Two - On with the game.
First, I dial up Sumeria and sell them Chemistry for Education and Chivalry plus all their pocket change (8g). Theodora has Banking, Astronomy and Music Theory. So for Chemistry and our WM, I get Astronomy, her TM & 41G. The Maya are up Navigation and Banking. It may make sense to leave them with one city just so we can do some pointy stick research. We’ll see when they are down to one city.
IBT – There are now four Barbarian fleets plying our coastal waters. We lose an MDI on a mountain and kill two LBs.
Metallurgy=> Mil Tradition (science up to 50%, due in 6 turns.)
In traditional AI brilliance, the Maya start Bach’s.
660 AD – Start marching on Yax. Move all but a MDI out of Chichen Itza. Take out a wounded LB and march on Palenque. Send several units towards the northeast where it appears the barbs are headed. Swap several builds over to knights.
IBT – A barb MDI and two Mayan LB are dropped off within two tiles of each other in the northeast. Chichen Itza flips. We lose an MDI.
670 – Lose a regular MDI to the barb. Did I mention how I hate regular units? Bombard and recapture Chichen Itza. March on Yax and Palenque. Attacks next turn.
IBT – The Barbs drop off two pikes, two LB and a horse.
680 – First, we’ll move every unit north that we can. The Barb horse can attack our forted MDI in Umma, or a wounded MDI in the open. I hope they fall for the wounded bait.
At Yax, once our trebs get the range we red line the three muskets defending, then kill them.
At Palenque – I lose three MDI so I stop the attack and await the arrival of the armies next turn.
After studying the situation at Umma, if our MDI survives and if they march on Umma, we will be in a serious hurt locker. I full rush a musket there. We are starting to see some WW, so lux goes up 10%. Cross my fingers and hit enter…
IBT – The best of both worlds. The horse attacks our redlined MDI and kills him while the main SOD moves next to Umma.
690 – Sometimes I hate this game. I attack Palenque with our MDI army and with the loss of 1 hp, take out an elite musket. Then I attack a regular musket with a sword army and only take off one hp and lose the army.
And people wonder why I am grumpy. @ Umma – Lose one of our new knights to a pike. Kill a pike, kill a LB and the horse. Umma should survive no problem.
IBT – Outside Umma – The barbs don’t attack the city and we lose an MDI. Another fleet shows up in the east and this one is headed towards Liverpool. Luckily we have two knights that were just commissioned. @ Palenque we go 2 for 3 and lose an MDI. Oh, and the Dutch send an archer north into our lands.
700 – I make the first demand of William. He says sure and stays. Then we kill the two remaining barbs in the north and move eastward to meet the new threat.
Then at Palenque. We bombard the vet Musket and kill him flawlessly with our MDI army. There is only a reg spear and our MDI army goes down to 5hp before killing it.
The Mayans are down to three cities and will now give us navigation for peace. One of those cities may be offshore.
Since Theodora wil be our last enemy, I dial her up and sell her metallurgy for navigation, PP, WM and 80G. The Mayans do have an offshore island. The Dutch have three.
Science drops a notch. If the Barbs land between Machu and Tikal, I’ll have three attackers ready for them.
IBT – Three Barbs are dropped off.
710 – Kill two of the three barbs. Lose an MDI. Start marching south towards the next Mayan capitol. William’s archer has wandered off somewhere.
Our knight retreats from the Barb LB and we lose a slave.
720 – More marching and healing. Kill the Barb LB. We have some seriously unhappy people.
IBT – Mil Tradition => Physics Our first cav is commissioned.
730 – Upgrade several knights.
IBT – Chichen Itza flips again. This time we lose a pike.
740 – We recapture Chichen Itza. Continue the starvation diet.
Set up to take Lagartero next turn.
IBT – The Barbs are now doing coastal bombardment.
750 - @ Lagartero – Knock the four defenders down to yellow. Our cavs help out and we capture the city.
After Action – Sorry gents, that was a less than stellar set of turns. We can get banking for peace. Grab the last city on our lands, then go for peace. William is next. We should be able to toss him off the continent quickly. The question to the team is: do we want to go after these offshore cities? Other than flip risk, I’m thinking no.
Here is the situation in the southeast:
Save: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm10/Xteam_SG010_AD0750_01.SAV
scoutsout
Minstrel Boy
@Bugs: Sounds like you had some tough sledding there... but played well despite some setbacks. The WW concerns me, and I hope it goes away after we sign some sort of peace with the Maya.
What can you tell us about the Barbarian landings? Are they seemingly random? Perhaps we should
What can you tell us about the Barbarian landings? Are they seemingly random? Perhaps we should
- "offer" a soft target (an empty city, slightly inland)
- make this target one they can't actually hit, but one that will draw the Barbarian troops to a consistent landing spot
- occupy the hills and mountains around said landing spot, so the Barbarian troops land on a nice piece of flat ground..
Nice going Bugs. 
You had a lot thrown at you and we can prolly expect more as we play on. The Barb Nation has many advantages and will be tough, as we have discussed.
XTeam is known to battle not only the AI, but also the RNG and it looks like you had some tough RNG luck, between flips and some of the attacks.
However, you accomplished a great deal as well, between tech progress and gaining some territory.
Roster:
Scout - UP
Mistfit - On Deck
Capt
Leif
Gator
Bugs - Just played
My opinions (for whatever they are worth?):
I think Cavs are going to help the situation all around and so we should focus on building them, nearly exclusively, at this point. Perhaps some cannons and, once we feel secure, some Caravels for upgrade to Galleons. Will Galleys upgrade to Man-o-Wars?
I don't think we need to go after the islands. Perhaps the Barb Nation will spend some of their energy on capturing them. Besides, if we take them, we'll need to defend them. We'll just have to live with flip risk and declare when it happens to retake the cities?
I think the war weariness is ratcheting up because of the Barb Nation landings. In the last SGOTM, I think we were impressed with the fact of what war weariness did to Gandhi as it cripplied everything we tried to get him to do in building a Space Ship. Being always at war with someone for the whole game gives us something we will have at to work at to mitigate. The best solution, I think, is Marketplaces and Lux's.
Looking at the map, I am thinking that we should consider an island proposition with the Dutch. They have 4 cities on the continent and, I think, 3 cities on islands. We should take all their cities on continent and, when we sue for peace, get at least 1 island city and gift that city to the Byzantines before we start taking them down so they have an off continent home to reside on. Maastricht looks like a nice, sterile place for the Byzantines to call home, no?
Good luck Scout!
EDIT - @Scout, Cori is about to riot
You had a lot thrown at you and we can prolly expect more as we play on. The Barb Nation has many advantages and will be tough, as we have discussed.
XTeam is known to battle not only the AI, but also the RNG and it looks like you had some tough RNG luck, between flips and some of the attacks.
However, you accomplished a great deal as well, between tech progress and gaining some territory.Roster:
Scout - UP
Mistfit - On Deck
Capt
Leif
Gator
Bugs - Just played
My opinions (for whatever they are worth?):
I think Cavs are going to help the situation all around and so we should focus on building them, nearly exclusively, at this point. Perhaps some cannons and, once we feel secure, some Caravels for upgrade to Galleons. Will Galleys upgrade to Man-o-Wars?
I don't think we need to go after the islands. Perhaps the Barb Nation will spend some of their energy on capturing them. Besides, if we take them, we'll need to defend them. We'll just have to live with flip risk and declare when it happens to retake the cities?
I think the war weariness is ratcheting up because of the Barb Nation landings. In the last SGOTM, I think we were impressed with the fact of what war weariness did to Gandhi as it cripplied everything we tried to get him to do in building a Space Ship. Being always at war with someone for the whole game gives us something we will have at to work at to mitigate. The best solution, I think, is Marketplaces and Lux's.
Looking at the map, I am thinking that we should consider an island proposition with the Dutch. They have 4 cities on the continent and, I think, 3 cities on islands. We should take all their cities on continent and, when we sue for peace, get at least 1 island city and gift that city to the Byzantines before we start taking them down so they have an off continent home to reside on. Maastricht looks like a nice, sterile place for the Byzantines to call home, no?
Good luck Scout!
EDIT - @Scout, Cori is about to riot
Mistfit
Deity
Unfortunately I'm not near as perfet as you Sir Bugsy.. I appolgize for botching this
Capt Buttkick
Emperor
Horse vs. MDI when we're this close to knights and later cavs, I'd prolly go for the horse too.
The reg units may be upgraded Wars? We had quite a few of them, iirc. And even if they aren't, in corrupt cities, I prefer to build regs than wasting time and/or money to build rax.
I think these "mistakes" really boil down to differences in play style. While we may disagree on play styles, we should try to keep a civil tone. I sometimes become sarcastic if people aren't nice to each other and we wouldn't want that to happen, would we?
That said, judging from your report, it looks like you did a
, bugsy. Like leif said, we're cursed by the RNG gods on this team, but that only makes our victories all the sweeter
The reg units may be upgraded Wars? We had quite a few of them, iirc. And even if they aren't, in corrupt cities, I prefer to build regs than wasting time and/or money to build rax.
I think these "mistakes" really boil down to differences in play style. While we may disagree on play styles, we should try to keep a civil tone. I sometimes become sarcastic if people aren't nice to each other and we wouldn't want that to happen, would we?
That said, judging from your report, it looks like you did a
, bugsy. Like leif said, we're cursed by the RNG gods on this team, but that only makes our victories all the sweeter
scoutsout
Minstrel Boy
I'll play tonight... as far as "play style" goes... I'm surprised we haven't built any longbows. The defensive freeshot can come in handy. 
;p
@Leif: Agree with you on Cavs. Galleys upgrade to Galleons. Our ships of the line will need to be built from scratch... though some pre-building and short rushing may be in order.
@Mistfit: You didn't botch anything. The strength of an SG team lies in the fact that one team member sees something another missed. Nobody reinforced that lesson for me any better than you.
@Cap'n: Please, no sarcasm in my English Tea, thank you sir. I haven't seen anything worthy of drawing any ire. I think this team is starting to gel nicely... let's not spoil that. I fully respect the fact that Bugs and I are the newbies to XTeam...and you and Leif are original members going back to SGOTM1. Just understand that Bugs and I have a SG history together that pre-dates SGOTM.
As for the RNG... some days you're the bug, some days you're the windshield. If we place our bets where the house edge is thinnest we'll do okay in the long haul.
;p@Leif: Agree with you on Cavs. Galleys upgrade to Galleons. Our ships of the line will need to be built from scratch... though some pre-building and short rushing may be in order.
@Mistfit: You didn't botch anything. The strength of an SG team lies in the fact that one team member sees something another missed. Nobody reinforced that lesson for me any better than you.
@Cap'n: Please, no sarcasm in my English Tea, thank you sir. I haven't seen anything worthy of drawing any ire. I think this team is starting to gel nicely... let's not spoil that. I fully respect the fact that Bugs and I are the newbies to XTeam...and you and Leif are original members going back to SGOTM1. Just understand that Bugs and I have a SG history together that pre-dates SGOTM.
As for the RNG... some days you're the bug, some days you're the windshield. If we place our bets where the house edge is thinnest we'll do okay in the long haul.
scoutsout
Minstrel Boy
SGOTM10 - XTeam - Pre-flight Check, 750AD
Start the set at +82gpt, Physics in 9.
City stuff: London is running surplus food even without working the fish. We could work that fish and mine a couple of plains tiles...
Temple short-rush opportunity for the court in Bad-tibira...starvation diet at the moment for a shield...
MM Ur for a shield... put a citizen on an irrigated BG and another on a mined hill. Set Chichen Itza to starve. MM Tikal for growth. Can't wait 25 turns for an aqueduct in Vilcas... not with all that jungle still there. Swap to worker on an empty queue. Levy a "heavy tax" on Yaxchilan. Akshak needs too many terrain improvements to warrant a 'duct. Swap to Cannon.
Spend 32g short rushing a temple into the market build at Liverpool.
Carefully tile-swap Nottingham and Cuzco to get Cuzco to 10spt net.
I find the scientist that drops a turn off our Physics cycle.
Finish the pre-flight at 118g, +83gpt, Physics in 8.
IBT - Barbarian Pirate Ship thingies Bombard Yaxlichan. (sp?) Two Pirate ships and a Galleon approach...
Sumer Barracks>Cavalry
York Cavalry>Cavalry
Ollantaytambo Cannon>Worker
Canterbury Cavalry>redux
Tikal worker>redux
Coventry Forbidden Palace>Cavalry (we're 1 shy of 20spt and a 4-turn Cavalry pump here team... all we need is to clear a bit of jungle and mine a mountain...)
Turn 1/760 - move a few Cav to meet the Barbarians... lose a Cav at Bonampak
Spend 64g on a Library short-rush of the market at Liverpool. Putting a citizen on the Volcano at Dover gets it to 10spt. Spend 104g finishing the market there.
IBT - Barbarians drop off a Knight.
London Cav>Redux
Nottingham Cav>Cav
Vilcas Worker>Worker
Isin Cannon>Worker
Zabalam Cannon>worker
Dover Market>Cav
Palenque riots (sorry team)
Turn 2/770 AD
Bombard the Barbarian Knight with cannon down to 2hp, and still manage to lose an elite Knight.
20g to a longbow short rush of the 'duct in Kish. Spend some more gold short rushing a settler into the 'duct at Huamanga.
Hire some scientists and get Physics in 5 at +78gpt.
I don't know if you guys have noticed it, but the Barbarians have secured a 1-tile island off our western coast, and founded New Olmec on it. Looks like a job for Marines, and this insures that this game will last into the late Industrial age.
IBT - the Barbarian activity seems to be focused in the east.
Tiwanaku Barracks>Cav
Ollantaytambo Worker>Market
Hastings Cavalry>Cav
Yaxchilan Worker>Cannon
Lagartero Riots
More Barbarians approach.
Turn 3/780 AD
After a relentless bombardment, we capture Bonampak, and I forget to grab a screenie.
48g spent on the Market in Liverpool.
Forced to bump lux this turn.
We train a cav, build a cannon at Akshak... and quell some resisters. Queue up a worker at Liverpool.
Turn 4/790 AD
I would normally prefer to quell all resistance before signing peace...but the War Weariness is killing us. Dial up the Maya and sign peace for Banking + WM.
Theodora lacks horses and salt.
16g spent on a temple short-rush of the court at Ur.
I screwed up this turn... and only left 2 Cavalry to greet the barbarian landing... so I spend some gold to short rush a Temple into York's Cavalry build, and then do some REALLY creative tile-swapping to get York up to 20spt net... to get another Cav next turn.
IBT - The Barbarians are building Newton's University ...and they drop off another Knight.
Turn 5/800 AD
Banking and Navigation are known... Dial up Sumeria and sell 'em off for Music Theory 91g+5gpt. That's a good little client state.
Position some Cavs to go after the Dutch... move an army out of Bonampak. Physics in 2.
IBT - The citizens of Lagartero depose our governor.
Sorry team.
Time to consult the team.
From here I can do one of three things.
As far as the exploitative play discussion goes... I do not view attacking the Maya in this manner as an exploit. Dastardly, yes. Exploitative, no. I do see some tactical advantages and disadvantages to an immediate attack on Lagartero. The advantage is a good position against the Dutch. The disadvantage is immediate War Weariness that will last until we can get peace with Maya.
As far as strategic advantages go... I think it's a wash - with one caveat. I could easily reposition us to go after Theodora in a few turns if we wanted to play it clean. Here's the caveat: If we have any designs on her free IA tech, we may need two things:
Start the set at +82gpt, Physics in 9.
City stuff: London is running surplus food even without working the fish. We could work that fish and mine a couple of plains tiles...
Temple short-rush opportunity for the court in Bad-tibira...starvation diet at the moment for a shield...
MM Ur for a shield... put a citizen on an irrigated BG and another on a mined hill. Set Chichen Itza to starve. MM Tikal for growth. Can't wait 25 turns for an aqueduct in Vilcas... not with all that jungle still there. Swap to worker on an empty queue. Levy a "heavy tax" on Yaxchilan. Akshak needs too many terrain improvements to warrant a 'duct. Swap to Cannon.
Spend 32g short rushing a temple into the market build at Liverpool.
Carefully tile-swap Nottingham and Cuzco to get Cuzco to 10spt net.
I find the scientist that drops a turn off our Physics cycle.
Finish the pre-flight at 118g, +83gpt, Physics in 8.
IBT - Barbarian Pirate Ship thingies Bombard Yaxlichan. (sp?) Two Pirate ships and a Galleon approach...
Sumer Barracks>Cavalry
York Cavalry>Cavalry
Ollantaytambo Cannon>Worker
Canterbury Cavalry>redux
Tikal worker>redux
Coventry Forbidden Palace>Cavalry (we're 1 shy of 20spt and a 4-turn Cavalry pump here team... all we need is to clear a bit of jungle and mine a mountain...)
Turn 1/760 - move a few Cav to meet the Barbarians... lose a Cav at Bonampak
Spend 64g on a Library short-rush of the market at Liverpool. Putting a citizen on the Volcano at Dover gets it to 10spt. Spend 104g finishing the market there.
IBT - Barbarians drop off a Knight.
London Cav>Redux
Nottingham Cav>Cav
Vilcas Worker>Worker
Isin Cannon>Worker
Zabalam Cannon>worker
Dover Market>Cav
Palenque riots (sorry team)
Turn 2/770 AD
Bombard the Barbarian Knight with cannon down to 2hp, and still manage to lose an elite Knight.
20g to a longbow short rush of the 'duct in Kish. Spend some more gold short rushing a settler into the 'duct at Huamanga.
Hire some scientists and get Physics in 5 at +78gpt.
I don't know if you guys have noticed it, but the Barbarians have secured a 1-tile island off our western coast, and founded New Olmec on it. Looks like a job for Marines, and this insures that this game will last into the late Industrial age.
IBT - the Barbarian activity seems to be focused in the east.
Tiwanaku Barracks>Cav
Ollantaytambo Worker>Market
Hastings Cavalry>Cav
Yaxchilan Worker>Cannon
Lagartero Riots
More Barbarians approach.
Turn 3/780 AD
After a relentless bombardment, we capture Bonampak, and I forget to grab a screenie.
48g spent on the Market in Liverpool.
Forced to bump lux this turn.
We train a cav, build a cannon at Akshak... and quell some resisters. Queue up a worker at Liverpool.
Turn 4/790 AD
I would normally prefer to quell all resistance before signing peace...but the War Weariness is killing us. Dial up the Maya and sign peace for Banking + WM.
Theodora lacks horses and salt.
16g spent on a temple short-rush of the court at Ur.
I screwed up this turn... and only left 2 Cavalry to greet the barbarian landing... so I spend some gold to short rush a Temple into York's Cavalry build, and then do some REALLY creative tile-swapping to get York up to 20spt net... to get another Cav next turn.
IBT - The Barbarians are building Newton's University ...and they drop off another Knight.
Turn 5/800 AD
Banking and Navigation are known... Dial up Sumeria and sell 'em off for Music Theory 91g+5gpt. That's a good little client state.
Position some Cavs to go after the Dutch... move an army out of Bonampak. Physics in 2.
IBT - The citizens of Lagartero depose our governor.
Sorry team.
Time to consult the team.
From here I can do one of three things.
- I can shuffle some units around...and probably get the boot from the Maya next turn...
- I can then invade properly (busting our rep, as the peace-for-tech counts as a 20 turn deal...)
- or not declare - putting us in an awkward spot for a Dutch invasion. (we could re-position to go after Theodora...)
- Or... I can declare war on the Maya now, and bust our rep twice...as a war declaration with troops in-country will count as a RoP rape.
As far as the exploitative play discussion goes... I do not view attacking the Maya in this manner as an exploit. Dastardly, yes. Exploitative, no. I do see some tactical advantages and disadvantages to an immediate attack on Lagartero. The advantage is a good position against the Dutch. The disadvantage is immediate War Weariness that will last until we can get peace with Maya.
As far as strategic advantages go... I think it's a wash - with one caveat. I could easily reposition us to go after Theodora in a few turns if we wanted to play it clean. Here's the caveat: If we have any designs on her free IA tech, we may need two things:
- A reasonably healthy Byzantine Empire - to actually get to the free tech. (Granted, we could gift her to the IA... but eviscerated AI don't make good trading partners...)
- A reasonably clean rep - to buy the free tech at monopoly price.
Nice work Scout. Too bad about the flip, certainly not your fault. It is one of the things I dislike about Conquests. Cities flip all too easily.
I am of two minds. The fear is that the flip of Lagartero will cascade into a series of flips for the old Mayan cities, given the amount of time that is left in the peace deal. With this fear, I would say let's go take the city back.
However, if we think we can hold against other flips, then I would still go after the Dutch. With Lagartero, we have a secure flank as the Mayan shouldn't commit to war too quickly. The Dutch have only 4 cities on the continent, so with Cavs, we should be able to quickly sweep them up, no? Should the Mayans get to feeling froggie, we're not that far away in going after them from Dutch lands.
That one tile island is going to prove to be our big problem. Does the Man-o-War have lethal bombardment?
I think I'll sleep on it. See if there is anything in the above that makes any sense??
I am of two minds. The fear is that the flip of Lagartero will cascade into a series of flips for the old Mayan cities, given the amount of time that is left in the peace deal. With this fear, I would say let's go take the city back.
However, if we think we can hold against other flips, then I would still go after the Dutch. With Lagartero, we have a secure flank as the Mayan shouldn't commit to war too quickly. The Dutch have only 4 cities on the continent, so with Cavs, we should be able to quickly sweep them up, no? Should the Mayans get to feeling froggie, we're not that far away in going after them from Dutch lands.
That one tile island is going to prove to be our big problem. Does the Man-o-War have lethal bombardment?
I think I'll sleep on it. See if there is anything in the above that makes any sense??
scoutsout
Minstrel Boy
That's pretty good justification for taking Lagartero back right away.leif erikson said:
The problem here is one of logistics. Most of our offensive troops are outside Bonampak, which is cut off from outside support. Move the offensive troops out, and Bonampak is exposed. Keep the offensive troops there...and they're effectively neutralized.
Unless... we signed a Right of Passage with the Maya.
Airplanes do, but it doesn't matter. Until you actually occupy the city with a Marine, the Barbarian existence continues. I have never wished for a Viking presence so badly.
If any other team has a game where that site got settled by anyone other than the Barbarians... this variant should be done. Unless the game was built with a Barbarian settler on the island at 4k BC... I think it's pretty chintzy to have a one tile island in this variant.
Having said that... all we can do is play the hand we hold. Since we're suffering from some War Weariness even after the Mayan peace treaty... we need a more durable government. Thankfully, Communism is in reach. I had my doubts in the early going as to whether Republic would be durable enough for this game. I feel pretty strongly that it won't prove durable enough to hold out for the Marines we'll need to take out that island.
Sir Bugsy
Civ.D.
Myst - That wasn't meant as a criticism. We all play the game differently. I am no where near perfect nor would ever claim to be. It is considered proper to say when you change out builds and I did that, and I thought that those two items might be more useful at the moment. I change my own builds throughout a turn. Does that mean I botched something? No. it means the situation has changed. If I change something of yours, or Scout changes something of mine (which he did) it doesn't mean we botched something. It means the next player evaluated things differently.Mistfit said:
As for regular units, yes I prefer not to have regular units, but sometimes they are inevitable. I doesn't mean I can't hate regular units without reflecting something on the guy who built them.
SGs are interesting for all the various skills, insights, and strategies each player brings to the team. If each of us took the save that scout just posted, I guarantee that there would be five different results at the end of ten turns. Probably ten very different results. That's what makes them fun.
Sir Bugsy
Civ.D.
OK, I finlly got around to reading the entire postings. I think the WW will kill us if we restart the war with the Mayans.
Let's stick with the plan and go after the Dutch, then the Byzantines. Most Mayan cities are starved down now. Just make sure we starve them all the way to one. If need be, keep the single citizen a taxman.
Let's stick with the plan and go after the Dutch, then the Byzantines. Most Mayan cities are starved down now. Just make sure we starve them all the way to one. If need be, keep the single citizen a taxman.
Mistfit
Deity
Anyway of buying in the Mayans to one of our wars in hopes of one of our enemies capturing the city? It would only extend our 20 turn deal by a turn or 2 if they did survive the war and we could keep our rep clean.
Although if we are wiping up the map of AI what do we really care about our rep at this point as soon we will not have any "real" trading partners anyhow.
Although if we are wiping up the map of AI what do we really care about our rep at this point as soon we will not have any "real" trading partners anyhow.
scoutsout
Minstrel Boy
Now THAT'S what I needed. Something out of the box.Mistfit said:
Back to the game.
scoutsout
Minstrel Boy
Back to the game...
First, I accidentally grab the 510 AD save instead of the 810 AD save... then I accidentally grab the 810 autosave... Third time's a charm, and I grab the game I saved off last night.
Turn 6/810 AD
On the tech scene...Maya have Metallurgy... so we're up Military Tradition. Hmmm... I don't want to trade MilTrad to Maya to get them fighting Maya. Let Mistfit's idea be used when we start in on Byzantines.
This is gonna get ugly... we've got a lux trade going with the Dutch. Dial up William, and take the deal off the table. That's interesting... he no longer has an extra incense to trade.
Hey Willie boy... remember that settlement you torched? It's payback time! Dial up William again and declare war.
Rushes (for culture)
32g on a worker to short rush a library in Palenque. Ditto fo Bonampak.
Do some worker stuff.. capture a Dutch worker in the recently re-patriated Mayan lands.
*****
Siege of Eindhoven
First cav in does 1hp damage to a SwissMerc, retreats. Second kills a Swiss Merc. The third one in captures the city, and we've got incense back.
Trebuchet's and the Armies march on Amsterdam.
Science and Lux come down this turn. Physics next turn.
IBT - Sumeria dials us up, wanting to trade WM. I decline. Maya dial us up and give us the boot.
Physics comes in, queue up Democracy. Then I remember my comments re: "government durability", and reconsider.
We train a couple of cav... and someone ought to look at Vilcabama. It just built a cannon... but we've got a rax there. I queue up a Cav... but we need to look at whether it's worth keeping the rax there...or what to do with this town. I've got a worker irrigating some food it can work... so maybe we can turn it into a useful town.
Akshak peels of a worker. One forest chop underway, with a second to start next turn. Now we can queue up that 'duct and improve some terrain around this town.
Queue up a Library in Liverpool. Dang this town is shield poor. Another candidate for selling off the barracks.
Turn 7/820 AD.
357g+251gpt, Magnetism in 14.
Let's see... I piled up 357g in the last IBT. Rushing the Library straight out in Palenque will cost 276g.... which we can't afford. We need culture in Palneque AND Bonampak. Short rush settlers for 76g apiece.
I'm planting some forest on regular grassland around some of our high-food towns to try to get a few more shields.
*****Battle for Utrecht
Healthy Veteran Cavalry are deployed from Eindhoven, as my secondary Combined Arms Task force is out of position from the Mayan boot. Veteran Cav goes 3/4 killing a Vet SwissMerc. Second Vet Cav is redlined whacking a Regular SwissMerc. Third Vet Cav goes 2/4 dispatching a regular SwissMerc. Un-freaking believable. The 4th (and last) healthy Cavalry dies taking an un-fortified spear to 3/4.
Take Science to 50%... gets Magnetism in 6. Time to fiddle with the cities. Hire a bunch of scientists to no effect. Take Science to 60%, and fiddle with the cities some more. Magnetism in 5 at +23gpt.
Tile-swap Coventry and Vilcabamba. Coventry is now at 20spt net, and a 4-turn Cavalry pump.
IBT - the Barbarian fleet is growing... Pirate ships are all over the place. We might even need some coastal fortresses on our peninsulas. I think a bombardment cut the road to Oxford on the IBT.
Turn 8/830 AD
Spend 36g apiece on Longbow short rushes of the Libraries at Palenque and Bonampak. Resistance is over in Eindhoven. Spend 32g short rushing a worker into the Library build there.
*****Battle for Utrecht - take 2.
Veteran Cavalry is redlined taking the Killer Spearman to 2/4. A 3/4 Cav retreats, a 2/4 Cav dies. Running a fine line between "calculated risk and stupid gamble", I take a 2/4 Cav out of Eindhoven and capture Utrecht.
Shuffle a secondary Combined Arms Stack along the Byzantine Border.
IBT - A couple of Barbarian Pirates and a Galleon shuffle along our WESTERN coast. We've got to be vigilant, team!
Dutch send an archer and a longbow after Eindhoven. It's defended by a 1/4 Cavalry. At least... that's what it LOOKS like it's defended by.
More Industrial-Era Barbarian Espionage stuff....
Turn 9/840 AD
*****Battle for Amsterdam
Trebuchets reveal 4 Regular SwissMercs defending... redlining 3 of 4. Sword army whacks the 2/4 SwissMerc, revealing a Spear underneath. Blitzes the spear to find another spear underneath. MDI Army whacks that spear, and finds another. The one Cavalry in the task force will rest since the city cannot be taken this turn.
Spend 76g short rushing a temple into Bonampak's Library. 36g into an Explorer short-rush of Eindhoven's Library.
IBT - more Barbarian bombardment. They're starting to hit coastal tiles more frequently.
Turn 10/850 AD
*****Battle for Amsterdam (Part II)
Trebuchets redline 2 of 3 defenders. Sword Army takes care of the 2/3 Swiss Merc. MDI Army takes care of the other two.
Now here's a useful wonder as we're 2 turns from Magnetism.
End the turn by shuffling some Cavalry around... some to watch over the western peninsula, others as placemarkers for positions to place troops to go after Theodora.
Byzantines will offer 230g+42gpt for Magnetism I'll leave that decision to the team and/or next better player... but we could sell it to her for 234g and use that gold to finish off the Libraries I short rushed in Palenque (need 112g) and Bonampak (76g).
I think at least one of our cities is set to riot next turn. The War Weariness is already a factor. I've got half a dozen Cavalry (one Elite) bearing down on The Hague. The Second Dutch War ought to be over REALLY soon.
First, I accidentally grab the 510 AD save instead of the 810 AD save... then I accidentally grab the 810 autosave... Third time's a charm, and I grab the game I saved off last night.
Turn 6/810 AD
On the tech scene...Maya have Metallurgy... so we're up Military Tradition. Hmmm... I don't want to trade MilTrad to Maya to get them fighting Maya. Let Mistfit's idea be used when we start in on Byzantines.
This is gonna get ugly... we've got a lux trade going with the Dutch. Dial up William, and take the deal off the table. That's interesting... he no longer has an extra incense to trade.
Hey Willie boy... remember that settlement you torched? It's payback time!
Dial up William again and declare war. Rushes (for culture)
32g on a worker to short rush a library in Palenque. Ditto fo Bonampak.
Do some worker stuff.. capture a Dutch worker in the recently re-patriated Mayan lands.
*****
Siege of Eindhoven
First cav in does 1hp damage to a SwissMerc, retreats. Second kills a Swiss Merc. The third one in captures the city, and we've got incense back.
Trebuchet's and the Armies march on Amsterdam.
Science and Lux come down this turn. Physics next turn.
IBT - Sumeria dials us up, wanting to trade WM. I decline. Maya dial us up and give us the boot.
Physics comes in, queue up Democracy. Then I remember my comments re: "government durability", and reconsider.
We train a couple of cav... and someone ought to look at Vilcabama. It just built a cannon... but we've got a rax there. I queue up a Cav... but we need to look at whether it's worth keeping the rax there...or what to do with this town. I've got a worker irrigating some food it can work... so maybe we can turn it into a useful town.
Akshak peels of a worker. One forest chop underway, with a second to start next turn. Now we can queue up that 'duct and improve some terrain around this town.
Queue up a Library in Liverpool. Dang this town is shield poor. Another candidate for selling off the barracks.
Turn 7/820 AD.
357g+251gpt, Magnetism in 14.
Let's see... I piled up 357g in the last IBT. Rushing the Library straight out in Palenque will cost 276g.... which we can't afford. We need culture in Palneque AND Bonampak. Short rush settlers for 76g apiece.
I'm planting some forest on regular grassland around some of our high-food towns to try to get a few more shields.
*****Battle for Utrecht
Healthy Veteran Cavalry are deployed from Eindhoven, as my secondary Combined Arms Task force is out of position from the Mayan boot. Veteran Cav goes 3/4 killing a Vet SwissMerc. Second Vet Cav is redlined whacking a Regular SwissMerc. Third Vet Cav goes 2/4 dispatching a regular SwissMerc. Un-freaking believable. The 4th (and last) healthy Cavalry dies taking an un-fortified spear to 3/4.
Take Science to 50%... gets Magnetism in 6. Time to fiddle with the cities. Hire a bunch of scientists to no effect. Take Science to 60%, and fiddle with the cities some more. Magnetism in 5 at +23gpt.
Tile-swap Coventry and Vilcabamba. Coventry is now at 20spt net, and a 4-turn Cavalry pump.
IBT - the Barbarian fleet is growing... Pirate ships are all over the place. We might even need some coastal fortresses on our peninsulas. I think a bombardment cut the road to Oxford on the IBT.
Turn 8/830 AD
Spend 36g apiece on Longbow short rushes of the Libraries at Palenque and Bonampak. Resistance is over in Eindhoven. Spend 32g short rushing a worker into the Library build there.
*****Battle for Utrecht - take 2.
Veteran Cavalry is redlined taking the Killer Spearman to 2/4. A 3/4 Cav retreats, a 2/4 Cav dies. Running a fine line between "calculated risk and stupid gamble", I take a 2/4 Cav out of Eindhoven and capture Utrecht.
Shuffle a secondary Combined Arms Stack along the Byzantine Border.
IBT - A couple of Barbarian Pirates and a Galleon shuffle along our WESTERN coast. We've got to be vigilant, team!
Dutch send an archer and a longbow after Eindhoven. It's defended by a 1/4 Cavalry. At least... that's what it LOOKS like it's defended by.
More Industrial-Era Barbarian Espionage stuff....
Turn 9/840 AD
*****Battle for Amsterdam
Trebuchets reveal 4 Regular SwissMercs defending... redlining 3 of 4. Sword army whacks the 2/4 SwissMerc, revealing a Spear underneath. Blitzes the spear to find another spear underneath. MDI Army whacks that spear, and finds another. The one Cavalry in the task force will rest since the city cannot be taken this turn.
Spend 76g short rushing a temple into Bonampak's Library. 36g into an Explorer short-rush of Eindhoven's Library.
IBT - more Barbarian bombardment. They're starting to hit coastal tiles more frequently.
Turn 10/850 AD
*****Battle for Amsterdam (Part II)
Trebuchets redline 2 of 3 defenders. Sword Army takes care of the 2/3 Swiss Merc. MDI Army takes care of the other two.
Now here's a useful wonder as we're 2 turns from Magnetism.
End the turn by shuffling some Cavalry around... some to watch over the western peninsula, others as placemarkers for positions to place troops to go after Theodora.
Byzantines will offer 230g+42gpt for Magnetism I'll leave that decision to the team and/or next better player... but we could sell it to her for 234g and use that gold to finish off the Libraries I short rushed in Palenque (need 112g) and Bonampak (76g).
I think at least one of our cities is set to riot next turn. The War Weariness is already a factor. I've got half a dozen Cavalry (one Elite) bearing down on The Hague. The Second Dutch War ought to be over REALLY soon.
Nice work Scout, good progress!!
Roster:
Mistfit - UP
Capt - On Deck
Leif
Gator
Bugs
Scout - Just played, nice job thumping Mayans and Dutch!!
Checked and Prince Willy isn't giving any cities yet. Perhaps the loss of The Hague will convince him of his misguided ways?
I am wondering if we should consider changing to Monarchy. We now have all the lux's we're going to get on this continent. I do see some Ivory up north near Apache2, 9 tiles NW of Zabalam. But we really need another 2 or 3 lux's, and I don't think we'll see them any time soon.
I know we should avoid Communism, with this many cities, we'll have no production anywhere!!
2 more turns and we'll be able to shift some cities to build Man-o-War's. Which should help slow the Barb Nation's bombardments?
EDIT - Note that Sumer is about to riot!!
Roster:
Mistfit - UP
Capt - On Deck
Leif
Gator
Bugs
Scout - Just played, nice job thumping Mayans and Dutch!!
Checked and Prince Willy isn't giving any cities yet. Perhaps the loss of The Hague will convince him of his misguided ways?
I am wondering if we should consider changing to Monarchy. We now have all the lux's we're going to get on this continent. I do see some Ivory up north near Apache2, 9 tiles NW of Zabalam. But we really need another 2 or 3 lux's, and I don't think we'll see them any time soon.
I know we should avoid Communism, with this many cities, we'll have no production anywhere!!
2 more turns and we'll be able to shift some cities to build Man-o-War's. Which should help slow the Barb Nation's bombardments?
EDIT - Note that Sumer is about to riot!!
Sir Bugsy
Civ.D.
Very out of the box. Good thinking Mistfit.scoutsout said:Now THAT'S what I needed. Something out of the box.
Back to the game.
Sir Bugsy
Civ.D.
Where possible we need to shift our coastal cities to Men O' War when Magnetism comes in. The first thing we are going to have to do (after gaining control of our own continent) is control the seas. Without control of the sea lanes between the two continents, we will not be able to sustain a campaign against the barbs. Our UU is perfectly suited for that task. Once again when we sail though, we must sail in fleets of at least two or three ships. Perhaps London would be a good city to start a ship building campaign in.
We need a number cruncher to check out communism. I think it may be just right for our civilization.
We need a number cruncher to check out communism. I think it may be just right for our civilization.
scoutsout
Minstrel Boy
There's a little former Mayan town on a peninsula in the east that I swapped over to a harbor. Even if we can't build anything useful I see the potential for us to get some production out of the 2 coastal towns on the west side of that bay (one of those is Tikal, which need to grow and get a court/harbor/aqueduct). Ships produced in these towns could sortie and heal at the harbor in the peninsula town.
IIRC, we have 2 cities in our interior that I tweaked to get us to 20spt net. These would be 4-turn Cavalry pumps... meaning that we can better afford to let the productive coastal cities build our Navy.
IIRC, we have 2 cities in our interior that I tweaked to get us to 20spt net. These would be 4-turn Cavalry pumps... meaning that we can better afford to let the productive coastal cities build our Navy.
Actually, CivAssist2 will crunch those numbers for us. Here are some screenies:
This is where we currently are, in Republic:
This is what it would look like in Communism;
And this is what it would look like in Monarchy:
The most important changes are in the waste and corruption columns.
While London and Coventry will be unaffected by the change, Canterbury will go from 8% waste and corruption to 36%. At the same time, Lagash will go from 71% waste and corruption to 36%. So the affect will be to even out the waste and corruption. We will have no effective production cities, save London and Coventry, but we will have more cities capable of "better" production.
EDIT - In thinking a bit more, this is starting to make my head hurt. We need to produce a bunch of units and can do so by cutting resources, but that requires a lot of gold as well. However, now we know we need to reach Amphibious Warfare in order to eliminate the Barb Nation, and that requires gold for research. Also, Man-o-War must be built, can not be upgraded to. So we'll have to be careful in Cav production not to harm Man-o-War production.
Republic provides the most Gold and production, but suffers from a fairly high War Weariness, which we can not get rid of becuase of the permanent state of war between us and the Barbs. Communism evens out the production, but will slow Man-o-War production due to more corruption and waste spread around, except in London.
At this point, I think we stay Republic if possible?
This is where we currently are, in Republic:
This is what it would look like in Communism;
And this is what it would look like in Monarchy:
The most important changes are in the waste and corruption columns.
While London and Coventry will be unaffected by the change, Canterbury will go from 8% waste and corruption to 36%. At the same time, Lagash will go from 71% waste and corruption to 36%. So the affect will be to even out the waste and corruption. We will have no effective production cities, save London and Coventry, but we will have more cities capable of "better" production.
EDIT - In thinking a bit more, this is starting to make my head hurt. We need to produce a bunch of units and can do so by cutting resources, but that requires a lot of gold as well. However, now we know we need to reach Amphibious Warfare in order to eliminate the Barb Nation, and that requires gold for research. Also, Man-o-War must be built, can not be upgraded to. So we'll have to be careful in Cav production not to harm Man-o-War production.
Republic provides the most Gold and production, but suffers from a fairly high War Weariness, which we can not get rid of becuase of the permanent state of war between us and the Barbs. Communism evens out the production, but will slow Man-o-War production due to more corruption and waste spread around, except in London.
At this point, I think we stay Republic if possible?
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