SGOTM 10 - Xteam

[Capt Buttkick]

I don't think we have much WW from the barbs?
What trouble we have with WW comes from our neighbouring civs and that should go away as soon as we conquer the entire continent.
In light of that, I would continue in Rep as well.

 

[scoutsout]

@Capt Buttkick: I probably should have noted this in the log... but there was a percentage of our citizenry that was unhappy due to war weariness... even in that window of peace between the Mayan and Dutch wars.

I probably should have been a little more clear about a couple of other things as well... it's not just the war weariness.. but the fact that we won't be able to take out the Barbarians until after Amphibious warfare that has me a little concerned... it's also quite possible that our military will soon outstrip our economy... and the unit support of communism is rather nice.

Please bear in mind - I'm not adamant about going commie. I just think it's something we ought to consider.

I had another thought as I was coming home... might it be worth keeping the Byzantines intact if we can leverage Theodora's cheap universities to do some of our research for us? Consider this:

• It may be tough to get the "IA Trifecta (Sufferage, ToE, Hoover) in this game.
• Without ToE, we will need some research help to get to Marines.
• It doesn't appear that Theodora has anything we need in terms of resources...and she has no lux.
• Theodora should get the tech discount for being an emperor AI.
• If we research different paths from Theodora... we can get to the end of the IA a little quicker.

These are just some ideas I thought we could kick around as a team.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Scout - Those are all good points that I haven't considered. Well, I think going commie is our best IA government, but the rest I hadn't thought of. Consider this additional point, we could sell Theodora a lux for some $$$.

 

[leif erikson]

I have also been thinking about Theodora and using her as a trading partner for both tech and Gold. She does, however, have something we need and that is Leo's and it is located in Adrianople. Given its location next to Constantinople, I don't see how we can possibly keep it as it will flip back most surely?

In looking at governments, Fascism sounds interesting for what we are doing. 200% worker efficiency, no war weariness and support is 4 for towns, 7 for cities and 10 for metropolis. However, I have no experience with it and the description in the Civlopedia says that when we switch to it, we will lose population, especially in cities that we have captured and have not fully assimilated.

Fascism costs 300 more beakers than Communism and both require Nationalism.

EDIT - I understand we won't finish until we get to Amphibious Warfare for Marines. However, there is much fighting to do before that and I think we need to focus on the immediate task of how are we going to get, in force, to the Barb Nation and defeat them. I have a feeling it will take a while to do so and if, when we get Amphibious Warfare, that island is all that is left to take, we have done our job well. That doesn't mean we shouldn't consider how to keep research going while building an Army of conquest and what government would be best for our needs.

 

[scoutsout]

....much fighting to do before that and I think we need to focus on the immediate task of how are we going to get, in force, to the Barb Nation and defeat them.

Help us get to Flight, and you can sit back and watch the fireworks.

Right now I envision a 4 stage campaign on the Barbarian Continent:

1. Take back the seas. Wolfpacks of Man-O-War ships, in the short term.
2. Combined Arms Landing at a weak spot. Give me Grunts, Artillery, Cav, and a Combat Settler. Give me a toe-hold and a slugfest, and I'm a happy camper.
3. Flight. Take the seas out of the equation altogether for the Continental War. Go Three-Dimensional with Combined Arms.
4. One last Marine-led Coup de Grace...and endgame.

Seriously... Flight is our equalizer.

 

[leif erikson]

Help us get to Flight, and you can sit back and watch the fireworks.

Seriously... Flight is our equalizer.

It may be our equalizer, but it is a long way off, at the moment, no?

I agree with your basic outline but think we have to try to do a lot more between now and flight.

A couple of wild and crazy ideas?:
There are a couple of islands, one at the south end of the barb continent (Spices are there) and the other across the seas near the northern end of our own (Ivory is there). The one at the south end of the Barb continent appears to be uninhabited. I'd like to claim it and defend it, just like up north, and make the barbs come to us so we can chew them up a little.

Perhaps we can land our Armies on the barb continent and employ them as recon and resource pillagers while we build our combined arms teams for deployment. Then the Armies can join them and provide cover for healing, etc.

I feel like Churchhill during the early stages of WW II, trying to find ways to hurt the enemy while not frittering away, or engaging, too much of our forces. Try to make the Barbs respond to us, having the initiative instead of ceding it to them. Other ideas are certainly welcome.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

When we go to the Barb continent we must go in full force. Anything less will be suicide. Even then it will be bloody. Once we get a beachhead there are all sorts of things we can do tactically. The key will be getting and keeping a beachhead.

I do like the idea of going for one or more of those southern islands. That would make a great jumping off point for an invasion.

The big issue will be if the Barbs get flight before us. That will make it a modern age war to win. We need to get to flight first and control the seas and skies.

The place is probably crawling with resources so I don't think pillaging will do anything but get our troops killed.

 

[leif erikson]

When we go to the Barb continent we must go in full force. Anything less will be suicide. Even then it will be bloody. Once we get a beachhead there are all sorts of things we can do tactically. The key will be getting and keeping a beachhead.

I agree for the most part. This will depend upon our ability to produce new units and get them across the seas. So, what will we need to do this?

I do like the idea of going for one or more of those southern islands. That would make a great jumping off point for an invasion.

Yes, and I think they will be easier to hold as AI seaborn invasions are, generally, pretty lame affairs. Perhaps a good way to burn up some Barb Units?

The big issue will be if the Barbs get flight before us. That will make it a modern age war to win. We need to get to flight first and control the seas and skies.

The best way I know of to slow someone's research is to take or destroy some of their cities.

The place is probably crawling with resources so I don't think pillaging will do anything but get our troops killed.

Perhaps. I thought that Armies seldom get attacked by the AI, in fact, they avoid them like the plague, no? If the AI won't touch them, why not use them to good effect. If the Armies would be attacked and destroyed, then, of course, we shouldn't even think about it.

I'm sorry, but I can't look at this as an unmovable block. To me, waiting is unacceptable as we know they can, and will, out research us. To do nothing insures they get to Flight before we do. In 2 turns, we gain the ability to reach out and touch someone with Man-o-War's and with Galleons capable of carrying Armies.

I think we need to decide how we can effectively do this and what systems we need to set up to carry it out; ship chains, resource cutting???
-Should we send a squadron of Man-o-Wars to recon the Barb coastline, I think so.
-Scout has said we need to get control of the sea, I agree; how many Man-o-Wars should we assign to that?
-How much impact can we make on them with massed Cavalry?
-What kinds and types of units do we need to form the combined arms teams Scout is talking about?
Are there places on the Barb terrain that we can exploit? From what I can see the land form seems to be two continents connected by a land bridge. Can we take advantage of that? Their oldest cities are in the north, I think. Can we hurt them there?

Or? Do we think it will be best to fight this as a modern war? I think our tanks will meet Mech Inf and Modern Armor due to their research rates.

I think you sig sums up our situation best Bugs:

"He who will not risk, cannot win." - John Paul Jones

What calculated risks should we take?

 

[scoutsout]

I'm sorry, but I can't look at this as an unmovable block.

If I gave you the impression I do... I apologize. I merely wanted to emphasize the fact that there is no quick and easy endgame in this one.

what systems we need to set up to carry it out; ship chains, resource cutting???

Yes. (Many view ship-chaining as an exploit... but it's specifically legal in xOTM games... so it's in. Sorry Bugs, I know you dislike it... )

Should we send a squadron of Man-o-Wars to recon the Barb coastline, I think so.
-Scout has said we need to get control of the sea, I agree; how many Man-o-Wars should we assign to that?

I think we'll need two squadrons of M-o-Ws... one operating from "The Bay" in the east, and one operating off the western peninsula. When we only have 1-3 M-o-Ws in the area... the name of the game will be to find a Barbarian pirate ship and bombard it untill we knock off a hit point. That should be enough to send it home for a couple of turns. All we need to do at first is to take them out of the fight for a bit (at zero cost to us). By the time we get 5 M-o-Ws in each area, we'll be able to bomb enough to take their strength down, and we can start sinking some ships without undue losses on our part.

During my turns I saw 3-5 Pirate ships bombarding our coastline in the east, plus another 2-4 in the west. That's each turn. About every 3rd turn they'd land something. The first priority is to take the pressure off our coast. Once we reduce the Barbarian bombardment runs to 2-3 per turn (total) we can start focusing on hitting them in the open ocean, before they reach our shores. That will also be a good point to rally a squadron to start reconnoitering/bombarding their coastline.

-How much impact can we make on them with massed Cavalry?

Probably just enough to encourage us to waste shields on one-dimensional tactics.

-What kinds and types of units do we need to form the combined arms teams Scout is talking about?

It'll depend on what's available. This is one of those rare occasions I actually want Riflemen. We'll need 5 types of units at this stage:

1. "Infantry" (Muskets/Rifles/Infantry)
2. "Artillery" (Trebuchets/Cannon/Artillery)
3. "Cav" (Cavalry, Tanks) For close-quarters sieges, Guerillas work about as well as Cavalry, and better in specific circumstances. We'll have some MDI and longbows to upgrade...
4. Combat Settlers (this is going to be a "raze and replace" campaign... looking at the Barbarian Culture)
5. Combat Workers, optional in the first wave (to build roads/railroads/airfields)

I don't think this will be best fought as a Modern War... but I do think we will be using "Three Dimensional Combined Arms" by the time we're done. When we get to air power, we'll need to do 3 things

1. Use Workers to build airfields at home and abroad to ease our logistics
2. Use a modest amount of Flak to defend our stacks and cities from enemy air strikes (magic number is 4 per location)
3. Use 3-D Combined Arms to lengthen the useful life of our Cavalry. It works like this:
   • Stacks move 2 tiles away from the target.
   • Artillery Reduces the target using the 2-tile range.
   • Bombers use lethal bombardment to finish off weakened defenders.
   • Cavalry use speed to take targets that have been severly weakend (hopefully eliminated altogether).
   • Defenders cover.

Are there places on the Barb terrain that we can exploit? From what I can see the land form seems to be two continents connected by a land bridge. Can we take advantage of that? Their oldest cities are in the north, I think. Can we hurt them there?

I think we might be able to use that land bridge to our advantage. If we can consolidate the southern "newer" half, while holding the choke point... we might be able to hold that choke point while expanding our base in the south.

I'm going to download the save (I played in "The Other City") and have a look at terrain and such.

 

[DJMGator13]

I'm back but need some time to get caught up on what has happend since I've been away. Conference went well and I got in 1 round of golf, along with several very nice meals.

 

[DJMGator13]

Commie in Conquest is much better than in Van. Plus don't forget that it has the advantage of a 2nd FP (Secret Police HQ). I'll try to look at some more numbers this evening.

Before changing govs we need to decide the objective of our GA. Research or troop production. If its research I'd like to get as close to tech parity as we can so that we do not waste time researching what is already know. If we want troops we should time a prebuild so that we have a MOW asap and kick off the GA to help build a fleet and amass some cavs and cannons.

 

[leif erikson]

I'm back but need some time to get caught up on what has happend since I've been away. Conference went well and I got in 1 round of golf, along with several very nice meals.

Nice to see you back, Gator!! Sounds like you had a great time.

Now we need to put on our thinking hats (I sound like my nursery school teaching wife ) and come up with an integrated solution to this problem.

Thanks Scout, I think this discussion is headed in the right direction.
I think you have provided some of the answers we need. Now we need to turn this into a plan that we can use as we each play so we understand what we are building, why we are building it and when we should unleash the various forces. It will allow us to play together and keep our focus as a team.

It sounds like we initially need to focus on building several squadrons of Man-o-War (say 3 Sqd of 4 ships each?) and begin to take control of the seas. While that is happening, we continue to research to Nationalism (or trade with Byzantines) to get to Rifles.

If we do not plan on massed Cavalry, then we shouldn't need Leo's and can ally with our Byzantine friends?

We do need to think about Government and what we wish to change to. Once the bloodbath starts, Republic will, I think, become untenable. Has anyone used Fascism? Does it have any good qualities? I don't think Communism will provide sufficient high productivity cities for all the units we will need, but I could be wrong.
EDIT -

Commie in Conquest is much better than in Van.

Thanks Gator, I have only played Communism in Vanilla. That's why I'm asking about it. Fascism does sound intriguing though?

 

[scoutsout]

Okay... I took another look at the save...and these are my thoughts...

Navy stuff, in general:

I don't recall the statistics for the Man-O-War in the unmodified game, but in this one we get A/D/M of 4/2/10, a bombard of 4, rate of fire 2. Our Galleons are slower and quite weak, with 1/2/8. Privateers appear to be worthless... as the movement rate is 5... though they can bombard in this variant... with a rate of fire=0... what good is that?

Sizing up the East:

The Barbarians appear to have eight (8) coastal cities on the west side of their landmass. One is pop 6, two are pop 8, one pop 10, and the rest are pop12. Enemy naval bombardment has concentrated on Yaxchilan, with occasional hits on Chichen Itza and Palenque. Landings have occurred between Tikal and Liverpool.

It would appear that our best bet is to simply hold them at bay in the east. We have a harbor in Macchu Picchu, with a Market in the queue. Tikal is producing 2spt net, and has some mined BG that I swapped away from Tiwanaku. If we can get 2 productive shipyards going in these towns we can build our Eastern Squadron there. The harbor in the queue at Yaxchilan will give our Eastern Squadron a place to heal.

Sizing up the West:

The Barbarians have New Teoihuacan on a corner of their contintent. It's size 12, and has a harbor. There is another city further south that we can't completely see.

Bombardments have been regular at Zabalaam, occasional at Oxford, Akshak. Regular bombardments have also been noted at Agade (way up the western coast).

As Leif noted, Ivory is located on an island settled by Barbaria at Apache 2. It would appear that a modest task force could be launched from Zabalam to capture Ivory. Water tiles from Zabalam to Apache 2 are C-S-O-O-O-O-S-C. It appears that it would take 2 turns to reach that island.

We have 2 productive cities in London and Canterbury. London needs a harbor. Kish will complete its aqueduct in 4 turns, and has a harbor. Akshak is small and needs infrastructure... but it's got potential. Our western squadron should be built in London and Canterbury, and augmented by units built in Kish when it gets productive. Hopefully we can get a few Galleons built in Akshak. We need to get more workers into the peninsula.

Possible invasion locations:

As we've discussed, we could divide Barbaria by controlling the choke point. Chanca 2 is the Barbarian city on that choke point.

I propose we reconsider this plan, as the shortest sea-lane lies between Zabalaam and New Teoihuacan. If we can sack that city we can eliminate one of the 2 productive Barbarian cities on their east coast....and we'll have our toe-hold in Barbaria.

I think all this wierd Naval discussion risks taking our eye off one part of the ball: Civ warfare is primarily concerned with ground warfare. Naval warfare is nearly always a distant second consideration.

Other notes:

We could probably do a lot for our defensive position by waking up a bunch of our obsolete units and stationing them along all that rocky coast between Oxford and Isin. Now that I think about it...we should make this a priority. It will be a lot easier to prevent barbarian landings this way than to pry them out of unimproved mountainous terrain.

Sumer will riot next turn. If that's prevented it should complete a Market, and become productive.

We need some Universities.

Theodora will offer WM+230g+42gpt for Physics. I propose we take the gpt off the table and sell her Physics for 234g. Use the lump sum gold to rush-finish our culture builds in Palenque and Bonampak. Hopefully she'll research Theory of Gravity for us... or at least lower the cost. We should probably save up the gold to buy her free IA tech. Of course...we've got saltpeter and horses to offer her in trade.

Edit: There is a fair amount of jungle and marsh near Isin. I set the workers to road first, and then they can join each other without wasting movement to do the wetlands clearing work.

 

[Mistfit]

who is playing next?

btw nice plan scout

 

[Sir Bugsy]

I agree with everything except for the naval portion. If we don't control the seas, the barbs will pound out coastlines and reduce productivity. If we don't control the seas they will be able to land units in our homeland, taking our eye off the goal. If we don't control the seas, they will be able to attack our transports and kill our land units before they ever get to the barb continent. Ship chaining will not be an option without controling the sea lanes. Plus once we control the seas, we can bombard their shoreline and reduce their productivity.

I like using London, Caterbury and Kish for our west coast shipyards. I Tikal and the cities in the eastern bay will need to develop their production.

IIRC, doesn't the MOW have enslave capability? That could add to our navy.

 

[leif erikson]

Nice work Scout. And good points Bugs.

From what I read in the Civlopedia, the MoW does have enslave capability. When it enslaves, it turns the unit it captures into a MoW, nice!!

It sounds like we might need to build a bunch more MoW's than I thought.

So to put this plan into action, we need to concentrate on construction Man-o-Wars along our coasts in cities that have sufficient shields to produce them. A Man-o-War requires Iron, Saltpeter and 60 shields of production.

Productive inland cities need to build Universities? We'll need some more Cavs and Cannons as well. Will we ally with Theodora?

We can decide on government after Gator has a closer look at it.

Do you think it is worth it to try for those islands sooner rather than later? By sooner I mean once we have 4 Galleons (16 units) and 3 Men-o-War for escort? Or do we wait until we have worked the sea lanes cleaner. I guess I am asking if we can do something soon in conjunction with cleaning up the sea lanes. Perhaps, by having a city close by the Barb Homeland, we can create a place to concentrate naval combat so we don't have to search all over the map for them? Let them come to us for destruction, a kill zone at sea?

I haven't checked, what government is the Barb Nation in? I'll go and do that now.

EDIT - Why they are in Barbarism, which the civlopedia says is the equivalent of Despotism. I wonder if they stay in that the whole game? Any place to take advantage?

 

[Sir Bugsy]

The barbs have some kind of special government so they can better kick our butts. No WW, no support, no corruption, that kind of stuff.

 

[leif erikson]

who is playing next?

It is all yours Mistfit!!

Good Luck!!

 

[scoutsout]

It is all yours Mistfit!!

When do I get to play again? Oh wait... I would be the one who played last.

@Bugs: We'll control the seas. We just don't need to control them all at once. The name of the game here (as in land warfare) is the kill ratio. We need our MoWs to work in packs, so we can send a bunch of Barbarian ships to the bottom without losing many of our own.

 

[DJMGator13]

OK, I had a look at the governments (using Civ Assist2) and here's what I found.

850AD review

Barb Nation - 26 cities (known) - pop 179 - already in Industrial Age (so they are out researching us w/o the Thieving thingy)

To get to Communism (assuming we can maintain a 60% research rate)
we are currently researching MAG (due in 2, turn 202)
Need TOG (cost 2040 we are at 408bpt = 5 turns even) 7 turns from current date
Nationalism (cost 3600 at 408bpt = 9 turns) 16 turns from current date
Communism (cost 3600 at 408bpt = 9 turns) 25 turns from current date
We would need 450 bpt to get both NAT and COMM down to 8 turn rates each, but as we increase unit count our gpt will decrease and as WW continues we'll need to hit the lux slider, which means we are probably looking at 28 to 30 turns for Communism.

Based on the research time, we are looking at a Republic GA, unless we delay it. In a GA period with 50% science we'll be right about 450bpt which will only shave 1 or 2 turns off the total research time for Communism. If we can maintain 60% science (535bpt) we'll be able to reach Communism right as our GA ends (TOG in 4, NAT & COMM in 7 each). Obviously this changes some as more library or universities come online.

Look at city shield production
Currently we have 10 cities at 10 or better spt (see pic) [all have barracks]

With a Republic GA we will have 14 cites at 10 or better spt (see pic) [3 w/o barracks]

Communism (at current level) would only have 9 cities at 10 or better spt, and dramatically drops the bpt to only 308 vrs 405 (see pic)

Communism (at current level - w/ SPHQ in Tiwanaku) gives 11 cities at 10 or better spt (see pic), also with a slight increase to bpt

My thoughts
If we can continue to control the WW for the next 20-25 turns I think we are better off staying in republic, having our GA and completely researching Communism. We need to pick a spot for our Secret Police HQ and start a palace prebuild there so that we can have the SPHQ as soon as we hit Communism. By researching 2 optional techs though we are probably looking at the Barbs building TOE, considering they are already in the Industrial Age. But we can't survive this game in republic. My tech goal after Communism would be to get to RParts and artillery. Communism will give us better unit support and increase production in our nonproductive Republic cities but it comes at the price of slower research and reduced output in our top production cities. We can't use pointy stick versus the Barbs, so it may be difficult to surpass them but if we can start taking cities from them we should be able to slow them down some.

We may also need to set up a few settler pumps and start ICS our lands to increase our unit support levels and allow us to hire scientists to try to increase our bpt while in Communism.