SGOTM 10 - Xteam

[DJMGator13]

Flight could be real important especially if we manage to obtain it before the Barbs. Unopposed bombers with lethal bombardment can be devastating. On the downside the AI's do like to build bombers so we could be on the other end of this if they get there first and we do not have fighters to intercept.

I agree that the espionage missions may not be worthwhile but gaining the SPHQ and knowing how many units we are facing is huge. If the AI is sitting on hundred's of rifles/infantry then we are in for a long slugfest and could benefit from tanks, bombers, etc... I would hope that we quickly become "Average" to them. This would give us an idea of what to expect.

I'll wait until tomorrow to play. Give more time for others to comment.

 

[leif erikson]

Perhaps we should ask AlanH if it is necessary to defeat the Barbarians before winning this game.

Scout, here is the mission:

All victory conditions are switched on, but the winning team will be the one that achieves the destruction of the barbarian nation earliest.

It comes from the first post in this thread.

I agree with Scout's arguments, but would like to explore one of them.
The concept of raze and replace. I do agree that in some instances, we do want to replace, especially if there is a Lux resource. However, I don't understand fully why we want to put so many shields into Settlers when we can use them more effectively as units to attack with?

If we raze a bunch of Barb cities and he decided to send a settler around our front by ship, then I think we should allow them to waste their shields on that kind of mission. Any city they build will be easy fodder for our units moving forward I would think.

In the same line of thought, every city we build will need some kind of defense. We may not need to station units in the city, but we will need some sort of reaction force to slow or stop enemy forces that wish to take those cities or destroy them.

I think I understand that we would not allow those cities to grow too much as we would maximize food and specialists to help speed or maintain our research or gold flow. Without Markets, they will be difficult to keep happy and prey for the Barb culture, which we are in awe of!!

I think we are asking for more work than we may need to plant a large number of cities in Barbaria. And, for refernece, we have about 250 tiles to the domination limit, so it isn't currently a problem.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Standard AW settling pattern = CxxC - that way you can move a three tile unit between the cities.

Scout - That was a great set of turns.

I am with Leif on the demobilzation. We can use workers to build airports, the trade off of factories v. military isn't worth it at the moment.

We need to cram as many units as possible into out Beachhead city. BTW - Scout that was great seeing the use of that lake to bombard Cherokee.

For the time being on the Barb Continent, I would raze everything. When we have some breathing room, we can start settling.

Expect an onslaught as a lot of Barb units race up the roads to get to us. I still can't believe they don't have rails.

 

[scoutsout]

@Bugs: I agree that we need more units in our beachead city... especially artillery. I would love to see the barbs attack it... with an Infantry Army in the garrison to defend and a Cavalry Army to skirmish.

@Leif: My rationale for settling in Barbaria is simple: to deny that territory to the Barbarians. They can't attack anything more than 3 tiles deep into our territory... so if we claim a bunch of that continent, we'll have a good sized 'safe area'.

As for keeping those cities happy... a size 6 town with 3 specialists will have 3 happy citizens. We have one such town already. If we get 10 size 6 cities with 3 scientists apiece... that's 60gpt towards our research efforts. Worth the shield cost? I think it's at least worth a look.

But if the team would rather raze than raze-and-replace... I'm fine by that too. I would only object to trying to keep any Barbarian cities...their culture is just too strong.

 

[scoutsout]

Sorry for the double post...

@Gator: Our Navy is fortified outside Barbarian toehold with most of their movement points left. You could wake up the Galleons and some of the MoWs and probably get 'em halfway home in your pre-flight. Most of the ground forces are unfortified... which you may find annoying, but you'll at least have no problem telling where stuff is.

 

[leif erikson]

@Leif: My rationale for settling in Barbaria is simple: to deny that territory to the Barbarians. They can't attack anything more than 3 tiles deep into our territory... so if we claim a bunch of that continent, we'll have a good sized 'safe area'.

As for keeping those cities happy... a size 6 town with 3 specialists will have 3 happy citizens. We have one such town already. If we get 10 size 6 cities with 3 scientists apiece... that's 60gpt towards our research efforts. Worth the shield cost? I think it's at least worth a look.

But if the team would rather raze than raze-and-replace... I'm fine by that too. I would only object to trying to keep any Barbarian cities...their culture is just too strong.

I'm pretty much with you. I may have misunderstood your timing on this as I think Bugs is thinking more where I am.

For the time being on the Barb Continent, I would raze everything. When we have some breathing room, we can start settling.

Your point is well considered and taken Scout. Once we have that room, we should have a pretty good idea how tough this fight will be and how long it might take. We may find that, by the time we have some breathing space, tech pace won't matter enough to use the shields for settlers. We can make that call once we get there.

For now the name of the game is reinforce our lodgement and break out if possible. I agree that breakout will depend upon how much we can move there as quickly as possible. The worst thing we could do is dilute the attack with multiple weak armies attacking in several directions. This should all become evident over the next 2 turn sets.

Good luck Gator, hope you can set up a nice kill zone and take out some of those excess Barb units!!

 

[DJMGator13]

Progress Report - I'm only thru 5 turns, killed a bunch of Barbs but we are still only in the Toehold.

Preturn 250 - 1300AD
review game - start the galleons back home with 10 MOW as cover

IBT - 2 ironclad and a frigate escort a galleon which drop off 4 cavs by Apache2
2 Inf and 2 cavs ride up to BToe

London cav => artillery, on second thought I stay with another cav - Artillery is not considered military and did not get the mobilized bonus
Ur inf => inf
Machua Picchu MOW => MOW
Ollant. art => art
Agade MOW => MOW
Akshak galleon => MOW
Dover inf => art

Turn 251 - 1305AD

Defense of BToe
art goes 4 for 4 - damage both inf and took a shot at an ironclad
1st cav army vrs 2/4 inf - we win
eCav vrs 2/4 inf - we win
4/5 eCavs vrs vCav - we win
4/5 eCavs vrs vCav - we win
rMOW vrs 2/4 vIronclad - we lose but redline it
rMOW vrs 1/4 vIronclad - we win
Stats 5-1

Defense of Apache2
use the 2 MOW as cannons and take a hp off 2 of the cavs
vCav vrs vCav - we win
eCav vrs vCav - we win
eCav vrs 3/4 vCav - we win
eCav vrs 3/4 vCav - we win
stats 9-1

injure an elite Ironclad off our east coast
transport 7 more arts and 1 inf into BToe
upgrade 4 trebs to arts
bombard 2 of the 3 roaded tiles outside the city border of BToe, forces the barbs to use another movement point
mm duties - Corp in 2 +100gpt

IBT - lose 2 MOW to 2 ironclad attacks (both of the ironclads redlined) / 4 cavs die attacking BToe / the 2 ironclad, frigate and galleon approach our at sea naval transfer spot / stats at 13-3

Cuzco cav => cav
Norwich rax => settler
Tiwanaku cav => art
York cav => cav
Nottingham cav => inf
Hastings inf => art (in 3 turns)
Tikal settler => settler
Oxford cav => art
Zabalam MOW => MOW
Liverpool inf => inf

Turn 252 - 1310AD
rMOW tracks down one of the redline ironclads - we win and run like hell because he uncovers 2 healthy ones

After bombarding the 4 barb ships

sink all 4 of the Barb vessels w/o a loss - enslaved 1

Defense of BToe
arts redline 2 inf and take out the last roaded tile outside our city border - lob a shot into Cherokee
vInf vrs 1/4vInf - we win (2 troops there so we remained in the city after win)
vCav vrs 1/4vInf - we win
3/5 eCav vrs 1/4 vCav - we win

Sci to 20% - Corp in 1 at +424gpt
stats 21-3 still weak to Barbs

IBT - win one lose one on ironclads vrs MOW, but we enslaved on our victory / 5 inf, 3 guerillas, 1 MDI and a rifle moving towards BToe / Corp is in, curiosity is too much to handle I select Espionage as our next research project
Chichen Itza inf => MOW
Sumer inf => cav
Copan inf => cav
Utrecht MOW=> MOW
Brighton inf => settler (no growth, size 6)

Turn 253 - 1315AD
w/o mm we can get Espionage in 4 turns at -12gpt, with 475 in the bank (I'll mm at the end of turn)

take out another ironclad and we enslave (so I lost 1 MOW, sank 2 ironclads and enslaved 2 more MOWs - not a bad exchange) / do a little recon and regroup the small stack of MOW - east coast looks clean

Defense of BToe
the 2 cannons injury an ironclad, then we sink it and enslave
arts do good injury all 5 inf headed to Cherokee
4/5 eCav vrs 3/4 vCav - we win
too many healthy enemies to venture outside of the city to attack - I'll wait for them

drop-off 20 more units (7 arts, 6 inf, 5 cavs, 1 crusader, 1 settler) into city

found Richmond
upgrade 2 more cannons to arts
mm Espionage in 4 at +16gpt
stats 25-4 still weak

IBT - Barb approach BToe with a rifle, cav and MDI then a 2nd tile with 2 inf and a cav, no attacks
London cav => cav
Ur inf => inf
Palenque inf => inf
Kish MOW=> MOW
Canterbury cav => inf
Corihuay… inf => inf
Bad-tibira MOW => MOW
Propaganda has upset Newcastle

Turn 254 - 1320AD
move some troops to Newcastle to calm down the people
explore off east coast - looks clean

Defense of BToe
cannons damage an ironclad, then we lose 3 rMOW before finally killing it (once it redlined I wasn't going to let it escape)
arts reduce all 6 Barbs to redline status
all 6 are now dead, no losses
land 12 more units (5 cavs, 4 inf, 3 art)
upgrade 4 cannons to arts (only cannons left are on the point North of BToe)

Even with all thr troops I’ve dropped off it’s not safe to launch an offensive yet

I'd like to wipe out this Barb stack before venturing out of the Toehold

mm for Espionage in 3 at +25gpt
stats 32-7 still weak

IBT - take out an ironclad and 2 cavs in defense of BToe/ 14 units approach BToe (this should be fun) / Mayans want to talk, not now
Machu Picchu MOW=>MOW
Hastings art=> art
Huamanga art => cav
Vilcabamba cav => cav
Agade MOW => MOW
Isin inf => inf
Akshak MOW =>MOW
Heracles inf => cav
Liverpool inf => inf
Dover art => art
Propaganda upsets Isin

Turn 255 - 1325AD
move some troops into Isin to calm down the people
East coast look OK

Defense of BToe
lose 2 MOW attacking an ironclad, finally sink it

View after the artillery hit

arts wreck havoc - redline all inf and damage the 2 guerillas and 2 rifles / plus redlined the inf to the nw

eCav vrs vCav - we win
eCav vrs 1/4 vInf - we lose
eCav vrs 1/4 vInf - we win
1st Cav Army vrs guerilla - we win
vCav vrs rifle - we win
eCav vrs rifle - we win
vCav vrs guerilla - we lose
vCav vrs guerilla - we win
vCav vrs 1/3 inf - we lose
vCav vrs same 1/3 inf - we lose they promo
vCav vrs same 2/4 inf - we lose they promo to 2/5
vCav vrs same 2/5 inf - we lose again
vCrusader vrs inf - we win
vCav vrs inf - we win
vInf vrs 1/4 inf - we lose they promo to 2/5
1st Cav Army vrs 2/5 inf - we win
1st Cav Army vrs inf - we win
1st Cav Army vrs inf - we win
vInf vrs 1/5 inf - we lose
1st Inf Army vrs 1/5 inf - we win
vInf vrs vLB - we win
I don't have a 2move unit left to kill the last LB and there is still a stack of 17 Barbs one tile out, so the LB gets to live - it doesn't matter if he pillages that tile
I've got 6 more galleons that can unload (w/ no move) next turn into BToe

mm Espionage in 2 at only +16gpt
stats - went 17-10 this turn for a total of 49-17 we’re still weak

Good news so far is that there have been no landing and only a few ironclads challenging our homeland. By establishing the Toehold the AI has focuses almost exclusively on it. I’m real close to moving the fleet of about 10 MOW from our East coast and start some coastal bombardment.

Goal for my next 5 turns is to see if we can become Average to them. I haven’t seen any UU type units so I’m also hoping they have already expended their golden age.

I’ll play more tomorrow evening after I get back from my seminar.

Edit: Our hand built army will complete next turn.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

You are exactly right Gator. The barbs are going to throw everything they can at Toehold. I wouldn't plan on venturing forward for a while.

If we can't build artillery, we just found a great reason to demobilize. I just wouldn't demobilize with peace with Theodora until those cities are flip proofed.

 

[leif erikson]

Keep up the good work Gator!!

Your doing great at knocking off their troops...

 

[scoutsout]

@Gator: Strong play! Keep chiseling away...

@Bugs: We can build Artillery... I built a few pieces on my turns. We just don't get the mobilization bonus for Artillery, Galleons...and I don't think we get it for barracks or harbors. We do get the mobilization bonus for ground troops and ships of the line. (I'm hoping we get it for Destroyers, Cruisers, and Carriers...)

 

[DJMGator13]

Progrss Report #2: I only got 3 done tonight, turns are lasting awhile. I'll finish up tomorrow.


IBT - we don't completely own the seas, 3 ironclads N & NW of BToe, then a small fleet of 3 ironclads and a galleon sail up from the S looks like they are headed for either Apache2 or our galleons / 4 barbs cavs put a hurt on the 1st Inf Army but we survive (5/14hp), killing all 4 cavs and the LB from last turn / more troops move next to BToe 4 to the NW and 13 to the SW tile
Cuzco cav =>cav
Amsterdam inf =>inf
Sumer cav => cav
Tiwanaku art=> art
Copan cav=> cav
York cav=>cav
Nottingham inf=>cav
Ollant… art=>art
Tikal settler =>MOW
Coventry ARMY => ARMY
Umma inf => cav
Varna settler => settler
Brighton settler =>settler

Turn 256 - 1330AD

Defense of BToe
vCav vrs vPike - we win
vCav vrs vMusket - we win
vInf vrs 2/4 vRifle - we win
4/5 eCav vrs 2/4 vGuerilla - we win
vCrusader vrs 2/4 vGuerilla - we win
vInf vrs 1/4 vInf - we win
vInf vrs 1/4 vInf - we win
vInf vrs rPike - we win
vInf vrs vMDI - we win
vInf vrs vMDI - we win
vGuerilla vrs 1/4 guerilla - we win
vGuerilla vrs eLB - we win
vInf vrs vLB - we win but move to the SW tile (there are only 5 units outside of Cheeroke - 2 pikes, 1 guerilla, 1 LB and 1 MDI) weak enough to leave the inf exposed
vInf vrs 2/4 vInf - we win
vInf vrs 2/4 vInf - we win
vInf vrs vCav - we redline it and it retreats (I'll count that as a victory)
vInf vrs 1/4 vInf - we lose
vInf vrs 1/4 vInf - we lose they promo - that's enough for this round (that inf will retreat to heal)

I unload 24 more troops into BToe (pretty good mix of cavs, inf and arts) - counting 5 workers we have 61 units in the BToe

found Exeter
found Cambridge
mm Coventry to 58spt, we need 57spt for a 7 turn Army build - Please keep at this spt level
mm rest of cities - Espionage in 1 at +1gpt
stats 70-19

IBT - Wow, the Barbs do not attack my loaded galleons at sea / we kill 2 ironclads in defense in other battles and 1 cav at BToe / only 3 units advance on BToe (but 14 more 1 turn away) / Espionage is in set to Steel

Ur inf => inf
Adrianople inf => inf
Lagash art=> art
Umma riots (I think I moved a MP out of it)
Lagartero art=>art
Zabalam galleon => MOW

Turn 257 - 1335AD
Defense of BToe
art wreck havoc again - with only 1inf and 2 cavs threatening the city I redline the inf then wound the 3 inf 2 tiles away - then I turn full attention to the 4 ironclads and the galleon and redline all of them - lob some shots into Cherokee it has atleast 4 inf in the city (then a wounded one appeared)
vMOW vrs ironclad - we win and enslave
vMOW vrs ironclad - we win
vMOW vrs ironclad - we win
rMOW vrs galleon - we win ans enslave
vMOW vrs ironclad - we win
eCav vrs vCav - we win
4/5 eCav vrs vCav - we win
vCav vrs 1/4 vInf - we lose, they promo to 2/5
1st Cav vrs 2/5 eInf - we win
I put 3 injured MOW in BToe to heal

I staged the at sea galleons 1 tile too far to reach the port, so I unload 3 of them and then use one of the ones from last turn to ship chain the army unit 1 tile into the city - use it to form the 2nd Infantry Army

Start bombing the Barbs western coast

Apparently the SPHQ is so secret that it can'r be built while mobilized
mm cities - sci to 80% for Steel in 6 at -4gpt
stats 81-20 (still weak)

IBT - lose 2 MOW to ironclads (1 by BToe - 1 in the bombing fleet) / kill 1 cav that attacked BToe / 15 troops advance on BToe

London cav => cav
Chichen Itza MOW=> MOW
Utrecht MOW=>MOW
Kish MOW=> MOW
Hastings art=> art
Corihu… cav => cav
Huamanga cav => cav
Bonampak inf=> inf
Liverpool inf=> inf

Turn 258 - 1340AD
lose a MOW killing an ironclad, then bomb the western coast with remaining MOW

Defense of BToe
arts rain down on the Barbs, redline 2 ironclads and all the good defensive units
eCav vrs 2/4 rifle - we win
vCav vrs 2/4 rifle - we lose they promo 2/5
vCav vrs vMDI - we win
vCav vrs vPike - we win
vCav vrs 1/5 rile (I hit it with art again) - we win
eCav vrs vLB - we win and

I get my first GL of this game
form up the 2nd CAV
vCav vrs vCav - we lose
2nd Cav vrs vCav - we win
2nd Cav vrs 2/4 vGuerilla - we win
2nd Cav vrs 1/4 inf - we win
vCav vrs 1/4 vInf - we win
vCav vrs 3/5 ePike - we win
vCav vrs 3/5 eCav - we win
eInf vrs vMDI - we win
4/5 eInf vrs 2/4 Pike - we win
vMOW vrs 1/4 Ironclad - we win
vMOW vrs 1/4 Ironclad - we win
rMOW vrs 1/4 Frigate - we win

found Gloucester
mm Steel in 5 at +13gpt
stats 99-25

I’ve got 2 more turns, they are taking awhile to play between the notes, mm cities for sci/gold and selecting the proper units to attack with in BToe. I have nearly 100 troops in BToe and we have to click through them to select the correct one. Unfortunately we are still weak. The onslaught has slowed enough that I’m tempted to try to take out Cherokee, especially with the addition of 2 more armies.

Bad news on the SPHQ but we are researching OK while mobilzed so I would not change it.

Question: Which would we rather have in the next few turns, the Pentagon or the Inteligence Agency? We are currently building Pentagon which should complete in 3 turns, but they both cost the same to build.

 

[scoutsout]

Take it to 'em Gator! I don't think I recall an Emperor level game that was quite this good of a slugfest in the IA. I would have thought we'd have begun to tip the balance by now... to 'average' at least.

Question: Which would we rather have in the next few turns, the Pentagon or the Inteligence Agency?

My vote would be for the Intelligence Agency. Though a 4-horse Cavalry Army would be nice, I think skillful fighting (and keeping our 3 horse armies alive) will serve us just as well. The intelligence agency, OTOH... that gives us a capability that we don't currently have - at all.

The more I think about it, we need a "Spook Central" before we need a "Puzzle Palace". Intelligence Agency.

 

[leif erikson]

Yes, nice work Gator!!

This is going to be a bloodbath. I can't believe we are still weak to him. That means he has a pile of units or it means he can build 'em like mad?
Whichever it is, it sounds like time to venture our of our cocoon and test our wings.

Our production of units seems to be doing well also.

EDIT: Crossed with Bugs. I also say go for the Intel!!

 

[Sir Bugsy]

CIA - Hands down!

@ Gator - 1. we are essentially in the standard late game where turns will take forever.

To the team - I think we can now play anywhere between 5 to 10 turns per set depending upon your stamina and endurance.

@ Gator - 2. If you think you can march on Cherokee, go for it. It seems like the onslaught is settling down to steady state. We will probably see a standard 10-25 units per turn inbound.

 

[scoutsout]

@ Gator - 2. If you think you can march on Cherokee, go for it. It seems like the onslaught is settling down to steady state. We will probably see a standard 10-25 units per turn inbound.

One thing I found encouraging was the mix of obsolescent units that the Barbarians were throwing in the mix... muskets, longbows, and the like. We may be closer to tipping the scales than we realize.

IIRC, the northern half of Barbaria is the older half, so if we can rip that up that should eliminate the more productive cities. In a war like this, crippling production by sacking cities is important.

Since we now have a pair of Cavalry Armies, we could consider advancing the 1st INF and a Cav Army with a stack of Artillery, and send them to "recon by force" to the west of Barbarian Toehold...torching whatever they find.

I'm also wondering if we shouldn't swap BToe's harbor build to a barracks. My thinking when I queue'd up the harbor was to get it "connected" to our trade network...(the sight of the gems made me a bit)... but it may be more important to get the 'rax in there instead.

 

[WillowBrook]

Looks like you guys are having lots of fun! Keep up the good work!

 

[Mistfit]

Nice turns guys.. Looks good. Maybe I can take em down to agerage

Please write up a good pass down report as I have very little experiance in this stage of the game.

@Scout - we're getting close to the point where I give away one of our best cities right?

 

[leif erikson]

@Scout - we're getting close to the point where I give away one of our best cities right?

By the way, this was posted in the maintenance thread this afternoon:

The sole objective in this game is to destroy the barbarian nation. When you do so you stop playing. The date when you achieve this will determine whether you win the competition. You or the AI must not trigger any other victory condition before that happens.

Once the Barbs are defeated, we're done.

CHARGE!!

 

[WillowBrook]

Note that Alan's clarification means you DO have to keep an eye on the domination limit.

 

[leif erikson]

Note that Alan's clarification means you DO have to keep an eye on the domination limit.

With something like 200 tiles to go until we reach the limit, we shouldn't have to watch it too closely.
Especially when Mistfit starts giving away our best cities!!