OK, sounds like we have 3 votes (including me) for going ahead and settling the plains hill. I will wait for more input from the team, and plan to play Monday evening (about 18 hours from now). So post your thoughts.
How long a turnset should I play? Until the worker is finished? I assume we build worker first, researching Agriculture. What should we tech after Agri?
How should I handle the warrior for exploration? I usually move out about 5-7 tiles from the capital and then circle the capital. But I can move along the river instead if the team thinks this would be more productive. Southeast looks likely to be pretty poor, so maybe head northeast a bit then circle anti-clockwise?
I will keep an eye on the demos screen, try to see if we have financial or cultural neighbors, or whatever else I can glean from it.
If we should meet anyone, should I pause? Or just exchange hellos and keep moving? Not much we can do diplomatically for a while, anyway.
I'm fine with building the capital on the Plains Hill. We are likely to be commerce-limited in the early game, so the Silver is a big bonus.
I'm undecided on what to research after Agriculture. A watch-out if we pick Bronze Working... remember that we need 4 Warriors... if Copper happens to appear on that settled Plains Hill, we will no longer be able to produce Warriors in our capital.
As for what to build after a Fast Worker... I'd go for a Warrior - both for initial defence, and for the game condition requirement...
Would it be a good idea, to ease confusion, if we over-write the names of our cities, as we found them? For example, instead of calling our capital "Delhi", we call it "Capital"... and then future city sites can be named after resources within them... so we may have future cities called something like "MarbleGold", "CowSilk", "ThreeGems", etc, etc...
Thinking again about the roster, I'll be away on business for 1 week from next Monday, so I'd prefer an earlier turnset, to hopefully complete within the next 7 days. So I suggest I swap with McArine, as follows...
I also prefer settling on the plains hill, because the silver is huge for early science. We won't need to worry about the useless tiles until the capital is size 12. Silver + River + Grassland + Corn = CottageMania! Good Economic site!
I recommend we rename our cities so that they appropriately tell us what they are.
As long as we don't have hunting we can still build warriors instead of spears. With the amount of forest we have I would prefer bronze working next. Possibly chop out a few settlers for the great sites haphazard is going to find for us.
My immediate thoughts on tech path without seeing whats around is. BW/AH/Wheel/Pot/Writing. If we go for an Oracle slingshot how late can we leave the building of the Oracle (Poss some religious techs in place of AH/pot/writing). Anything later than 1000BC I think would be cutting it a bit fine. I usually play immortal/deity now and generally don't even try for it so thoughts on how late we could leave it would be an idea.
As for direction we must be in the South of the map so everything NE/N/NW etc would be good to find out. Generally better sites are along rivers. Not sure is the bit of water we can see is coast or freshwater.
OK, looks like the consensus of those who have posted is for the plains hill site. I will settle the capital there, set research to Agri, and build worker first.
The warrior will head generally NE but trying to follow the river, assuming we don't run into coastline. Once he is maybe 6-7 tiles out from the capital he will circle around to reveal the north and northwest.
How long should I play? Not much (usually) happens with these first turns, and the worker will not be finished until T19. So I could easily go 25 turns very rapidly.
For speed of improved tile, it looks like our fast worker should improve the southern corn first. That should take until the end of my turnset. Only other question is research after Agri -- probably BW unless settling the capital reveals an AH resource in the BFC. After the worker is finished the capital will start a warrior. Any opinions on which tile to work until the corn farm is ready? We could work the corn anyway (+3 food net, and an extra commerce) to grow, or we could work more hammers to finish the warrior sooner and then grow once the corn is farmed. Growth is probably more important, but I would like input from the team on this.
As planned, I should actually play in maybe 6-7 hours. So there is still time to have your opinion heard.
Do we want to direct our tech path towards particular wonders? I replayed the test game over the weekend, and was able to build the Oracle, Pyramids and Parthenon.
Would we prefer a Cottage Economy, a Specialist Economy, or a Hybrid Economy??
I'd prefer food over hammers this early. They can always be used for hammers anyway.
Wonders. No that interested in the Parth as being philosophical + caste + pac + spiritual (no anarchy) will get us a lot of GPs. On the other hand for culture it would help.
The Oracle would be nice but what would we plan on taking from it?
Mids are nice but without stone they are a big build and I wouldn't want to tie up our capital on that project for to long. Perhaps we will find some in our bfc.
As for economy a lot would depend on our planned victory type. If we go for UN mass bulbing of scientists (even artists) would speed us through the tech tree. Culture we want a mixture of cottages/artists (gp farm) wonder building cities. At least I think so as culture is not one of my strong points. Come to think of it for fast finishing/high scoring games are a bit of a struggle as well.
Being philosophical certainly makes a specialist economy more attractive, assuming we want to head for the UN and diplomatic victory. If we want cultural, we need to generate mostly artists and will probably need to be hybrid or even mostly cottage economy. Although Pyramids and Rep would allow us to get some science even from running artists.
The Parthenon has its uses, and if we find marble I think it will be worth building. Without marble, we may want to invest our hammers elsewhere (Shwedagon Paya to prevent an AI from swapping to FR without Lib, Pyramids, Great Library, etc.). Without Pacifism the Parthenon boosts us from 6 to 7.5 GPP per specialist, a 25% gain before rounding losses. With Pacifism we go from 9 to 10.5, a smaller (but still useful) 16.67% gain. If we were not philosophical it would be a much more compelling build, even without marble.
OK, played 26 more turns to 3325 BC. Seemed the place to stop, as will become clear below.
T1
- Settled our capital on the plains hill. We have more silver to the SE and game (deer) to the SSW, out of the BFC unfortunately. Ice and tundra as earlier fog-gazing thought, and plains to the east.
- Start a fast worker, set research to Agri.
- Some early demos:
We will have 16 GNP once our capital founds, matching the rival worst. Top rival of 19 is probably creative for +2, working a tile with 1 additional commerce. Rival average of 18 means most of our rivals are creative or financial or both.
The land figures show most of our rivals have some water tiles, although at least one has a full set of 9 land tiles.
Military is of course horrible at the start with the AIs' free archers and Archery tech.
T3
- We meet Zara Yaqob! His scout is 3E1S of our capital. Even with scout 2-moves, Zara must be very close.
T4
- We meet another Ethiopian scout, this time 2E6N of the capital. Zara is to the east somewhere very nearby, I will explore that direction with the warrior to learn what I can.
T6
- Find Zara's borders. His capital of Aksum is 3N9E of our capital. There is not even enough room between us for one city without overlapping someone's borders...and Zara is creative, too.
T9
- I realize I missed switching tiles to the corn when the borders popped last turn...grrr, cost us 1 commerce. Sorry.
- Our warrior climbs a hill and gains visibility into the Ethiopian capital of Aksum. Coastal, on a plains hill, with cows and clams and multiple flood plains visible. Assuming he is working one of the flood plains, Zara was the rival best (or at least tied as rival best) with 19 GNP.
T10
- Aksum just grew to size 2. Zara is working those flood plains, no question.
- I could explore between us and Zara, but there seems to be coast to the south of our capital and we have seen coast to the northeast. I will circle around to the north and northwest to see how much land is around. Zara's scouts have already zipped off into the west, so he will know what is available.
T13
- Buddhism is founded somewhere.
- Our warrior (we need a name for this guy) meets a lion. Fortunately we just moved onto a forested hill, so very minimal worries.
T14
- The lion had 1.2% odds, and damaged us to 1.4/2.0. 3 turns will be spent healing, 1 XP.
T15
- Agri finishes, start Bronze Working. We have lots of food and forests, and with Zara so close some stronger units would be awfully nice. Let's hope we have some copper available.
- Hinduism is founded somewhere. At least 2 civs started with Mysticism.
T19
- Our fast worker finishes, the capital starts a warrior. The worker begins farming the southern corn.
T21
- Some demo digging shows Aksum has just reached size 3! Zara is going flat out on the food...at least he has no hammers to speak of and no worker yet.
- We have 1 pop, and 6.25% of total global pop which must be 16. Zara has 18%, matches with his size 3 capital. Demos confirm rival best is 21000 (size 3). With rival average of 7666 and rival worst of 1000, this means:
So most of the AIs are going for growth, but one has gone worker first. (Or possibly all out hammers first for Stonehenge, or even settler first.)
T25
- Meet a lion in the open, retreat across a river into a forest for defense.
T26
- Lion moves adjacent, I decide to fortify in the forest for 1 turn and get the (mostly) safe XP.
T27
- Lion has 1.2% odds, damages us to 1.6/2.0. 2 XP and a promo available...and we need it! Another lion and a wolf both appear next to our warrior.
OK, now for what we know of the world. The south-central around our capital:
The northeast by Ethiopia:
And the northwest, which looks very promising for future cities but is currently teeming with hungry beasts:
Note the stone we have uncovered -- that opens up some...interesting...possibilities. A fair bit of food scattered around, although only incense to go along with the silver so far. And whale, but very hard to reach given where we settled our capital.
We have Zara's graphs for those who want to check them. He is ahead of us essentially everywhere except hammers, since he appears to be working all flood plains for max growth.
The warrior and worker are both not yet moved. I recommend taking Woodsman I and healing in the forest -- the warrior is already 5% fortified from last turn, so this would give us 50% (forest) + 20% (Woodsman I) + 10% (fortified) = +80% defense at 1.8 health. Should be enough to survive unless we get significantly poor luck, although we are likely to need to spend quite a few turns healing with 4 XP.
I assume the other corn is next for our fast worker, then the silver hill. We will grow next turn to size 2. BW is still 10 turns out, although that should come down to 9 with the extra commerce from the second corn tile.
Save is uploaded, and ianw1610 is up! (Assuming the swap with McArine was acceptable.) Good luck!
Turnset log:
Spoiler:
Here is your Session Turn Log from 3975 BC to 3325 BC:
Turn 1, 3975 BC: Capital has been founded.
Turn 8, 3800 BC: The borders of Capital have expanded!
Turn 12, 3700 BC: Buddhism has been founded in a distant land!
Turn 13, 3675 BC: Barbarian's Lion (2.00) vs Gandhi's Warrior (3.70)
Turn 13, 3675 BC: Combat Odds: 1.2%
Turn 13, 3675 BC: (Animal Combat: +10%)
Turn 13, 3675 BC: (Plot Defense: +75%)
Turn 13, 3675 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 27 (73/100HP)
Turn 13, 3675 BC: Gandhi's Warrior is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 13, 3675 BC: Gandhi's Warrior is hit for 14 (72/100HP)
Turn 13, 3675 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 27 (46/100HP)
Turn 13, 3675 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 27 (19/100HP)
Turn 13, 3675 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 13, 3675 BC: Gandhi's Warrior has defeated Barbarian's Lion!
Turn 14, 3650 BC: You have discovered Agriculture!
Turn 14, 3650 BC: Hinduism has been founded in a distant land!
Turn 26, 3350 BC: Barbarian's Lion (2.00) vs Gandhi's Warrior (3.70)
Turn 26, 3350 BC: Combat Odds: 1.2%
Turn 26, 3350 BC: (Animal Combat: +10%)
Turn 26, 3350 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 26, 3350 BC: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 26, 3350 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 27 (73/100HP)
Turn 26, 3350 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 27 (46/100HP)
Turn 26, 3350 BC: Gandhi's Warrior is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 26, 3350 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 27 (19/100HP)
Turn 26, 3350 BC: Gandhi's Warrior is hit for 14 (72/100HP)
Turn 26, 3350 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 26, 3350 BC: Gandhi's Warrior has defeated Barbarian's Lion!
Turn 26, 3350 BC: While defending, your Warrior has killed a Barbarian Lion!
I'd prefer building a Silver Mine next. I usually prefer working an early Gems or Gold Mine for the huge Commerce boost. It is usually a good trade for slower growth. What do we do when we hit Happiness max.?
2nd Worker:
Alternatively, complete the second Corn Farm and after the next Population boost, start a 2nd Worker with huge +10Fpt and +2Hpt plus work another Tile, 2F1H (Pop 3). Worker growth becomes +10Fpt and +3Hpt = 13 Hpt. Worker could be built in 7t without Forest Chop. We could use two Workers to Chop Forests -> Settlers and complete improvements in Capital.
However, it would probably be best to complete the Silver Mine before the second Worker is finished.
2 Workers per City:
We should aim to have 2 Workers per City roughly. Maybe borrow some from Zara.
We will be building new Cities soon, so we need to plan to squeeze the Worker builds in. The 3rd through 6th Worker builds maybe could wait for Capital Happiness max.
Silver mine next is a possibility. Not quite as powerful as a gold mine but it is on a river, so 3H6C total and we get the happiness without needing a road. The other corn is also a very powerful tile, with 6F1C total once improved. So it is a tough choice. I like the food first so our capital can grow larger and work more tiles -- happy cap is 5 right now, 6 with the silver, so we are not going to out grow it for a while. And more pop opens up multi-pop whips for workers and settlers; with +10 food from 2 irrigated corn we can grow rapidly and whip some settlers.
Zara's workers will remain his, I think, unless he moves two of them together undefended. We only get 2 declarations of war the entire game, after all. If there is no land further east of Zara, he will almost inevitably end up declaring on us, at which point we can crush him down to one junk city somewhere. We have to keep him alive, which will certainly prove annoying with him being creative.
Do we want to direct our tech path towards particular wonders? I replayed the test game over the weekend, and was able to build the Oracle, Pyramids and Parthenon.
Early Representation seems to be the best thing we could get from a Great Wonder to complete The United Nations as early as possible.
We could start building The Pyramids after completing a couple of Settlers. We should be sure to have Mathematics before chopping The Pyramids.
The Oracle would be great, if Civil Service were a reasonable expectation.
National Wonders:
We need to start thinking about our National Wonders too. National Epic, Oxford University, National Park.
National Park requires Biology; that's rather late in a TUN Diplomatic Victory; Would the free Specialists be worth the effort, considering how close Mass Media is from Biology?
Silver mine next is a possibility. Not quite as powerful as a gold mine but it is on a river, so 3H6C total and we get the happiness without needing a road. The other corn is also a very powerful tile, with 6F1C total once improved. So it is a tough choice. I like the food first so our capital can grow larger and work more tiles -- happy cap is 5 right now, 6 with the silver, so we are not going to out grow it for a while. And more pop opens up multi-pop whips for workers and settlers; with +10 food from 2 irrigated corn we can grow rapidly and whip some settlers.
OK, we are planning to use Slavery, so we should build our 2nd Corn Farm next. After BW, delay AH, research The Wheel and Pottery to build Granary for whipping?
I agree with The Wheel and Pottery. Some early Cottages will be useful in the capital, in readiness for Bureaucracy in the Medium term.
As for the 2nd city, how about 1SE of the Stone? For initial growth, that city could "borrow" the northernmost Corn from Capital. Stone will be very useful for the Pyramids... maybe we can research Masonry in the near future... If we pop Copper somewhere of note, this location decision may change.
A note about Zara Yaqob - he has a +2 hidden modifier for Diplomatic victory votes... whilst most leaders need +8 to vote someone a diplomatic winner, Zara needs only +6 visible relations to vote us for a Diplomatic victory. He is the only leader we can meet in the whole game who has that particular characteristic (Gandhi has it also, but we are playing as Gandhi!!!)
Zara's favourite civic is Theocracy, so hopefully he will run a state religion for the whole game!
Having said that, we will likely vassalize Zara down to a minimal existence anyway...
Looking at the tiles we have to improve around Delhi. Our best tiles before cottages will be the 2 grass hills/the corn and silver. So I favour the silver, then corn then mine the 2 hills. As long as bronze doesn't appear although I think we have a resource under us or where the warrior was originally standing.
Tech path? The wheel, pot (can't see Delhi working any cottages for quite a while yet except when working off whip unhappiness). How early do we want an Academy in Delhi? So possibly writing after that. Better idea of the land by then which will help.
Second warrior should certainly scout the land between zara and us. If there is a food source there might make for an excellent second city although a bit of a problem with zara's culture. I can see Aksum becoming part of the Indian empire before long anyway. That would solve that problem.
EP points. Even with Zara's 2 scouts running around doesn't seem like he has met anyone else so it seems we have a lot of land to the West for us to settle.
War declarations. I never use choking in my offline/gotm games but if we pop bronze somewhere I'm quite happy to steal a few workers from zara and keep him in the dark ages by choking. We can only declare on 2 civs but we can do it as many times as we like. If we meet some other AI I would prefer not to do this as it will reduce our options for tech trades.
Pyramids. I would prefer to chop them in Delhi after Math, (just make sure all chops go into the Mids). Against that I would much prefer to make sure our first GP is a scientist for the Academy.
- Zara's EP indicates he has not met anyone else yet. But I am not sure this means lots of land to the west. Zara's scouts both came west -- probably little land to the east. Zara's scouts went past our capital, and then later came back. I suspect we may be on a fairly small land mass, just us and Zara. Galley contact with other land masses may or may not be available. There is some land across the water northwest of the stone, but that may still be our land mass.
If we are alone with Zara...we can't kill him, and Feudalism and vassals are a long ways off. We may be stuck dealing with him for quite some time to come.
The warrior currently building in the capital needs to explore between us and Zara, and see if there is any land east of Zara. If not...then we probably need to settle our second city ASAP to cut Zara off. Maybe some form of cows/wheat/incense city? Zara will found some junky second city, and once he declares on us we take his capital and leave him with the junk city. He is creative so we will probably not have to worry about culture-flipping him and accidently killing him off, even if his junk city is close to our capital.
If there is more land east of Zara, then we have lots of options.
- Stone city...I do not like 1SE of the stone. The site has the stone, 1 flood plain, and the corn. Since the stone is a zero food tile, that means we are not borrowing the corn from the capital but permanently taking it. With the capital's silver also being a zero food tile, that leaves the capital with too little food. Especially if we want the capital to support some specialists to take advantage of our philosophical trait, or even to work mines other than the silver.
- Tech path...the stone opens possibilities of the Pyramids, but I agree we should probably go for Math and chop chop most of it if we decide we want it. Masonry can wait a bit in this case.
Right now we are part way through BW, which will allow us to whip and chop. If we have copper, then on to Wheel and Pottery. If no copper is within reach, we will need to prioritize AH to see if we have horses. Otherwise war with Zara could be very painful for us.
An early Academy should definitely be one of our goals, so Writing has to be on the list as well.
- Our future city plans should include a coastal city, if not as the second city then no later than third. If we find this is a small land mass with just us and Zara, then coastal exploration and hopefully galley contact with other land masses will be critically important.
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His scout is 3E1S of our capital. Even with scout 2-moves, Zara must be very close.
