SGOTM 11 - ChokoMisfits

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I'm just a bit concerned that the AI Opponents could be chosen to maximize Worst Enemies, making a TUN Diplomatic Victory significantly more difficult. Add to that the fact that we may need to DoW two AI Civs and be at War with several more AIs, making a TUN Diplomatic Victory very difficult in deed. This makes the Cultural Victory more appealing with its lowered focus on Diplomatic Relations. If we did pursue a Cultural Victory, we would to keep some specialist Research going while the Culture slider is at 100% or have a great Technology trading business going despite our muted Research.

BTW, I'm on the other side of pond from most you. Less than a thousand miles from the last, western-most Viking settlement. And no, I don't mean China. I'm trapped in that country that is almost as big as China. Trapped, meaning I could travel in a car at 100 kmh for 24 hours either east or west and never see either coast. None of you in the UK are quite that far from the coast, I suspect. I'm land locked and loving it.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sleepless]

Canada?

Thinking Greenland (Vikings although probably settled on mainland America) and its certainly big enough.

 

[Sleepless]

Well played a bit further. Found out the basic cost of swapping religious civics is 900 with modifiers on top so not to expensive. We can target our ep points on civs who are likely to adopt FR. One thing to remember again do not trade Lib (thats for me ). I used it to bribe SB and Stalin to peace and Stalin straight away went into FR, By this time Wil, Liz, and Tok also had adopted it. It might be a very good idea to bulb philo (if possible) and never trade it. At least until most of the AI have it anyway.

Managed to build the UN in 1675AD. Certainly should be able to do that faster but even with SB at +10 because of hidden modifiers he wouldn't vote for me at diplo victory time. So gave up in this one.

I am leaning to going for a cultural victory but if we have a lot of land, the UN option would be good as well.

Not having very many cultural victories, I think one OCC and one other years ago. What sort of time line would be looking at for victory?

 

[haphazard1]

Sleepless,

Was SB at friendly? I am no expert at diplo victories but my understanding is that you need to get the AI to friendly, and have them not be friendly with your opponent. Maybe they could be friendly with both as long as your total modifiers were higher, not sure.

Here were my initial thoughts (sent to some a while back, before we had a team thread) on the choice of victory conditions:

Cultural

Pros:

- No need to suck up to the AIs diplomatically, allowing more choices throughout entire game
- Signicant control over victory date is possible, especially with Artist bombs
- Less total tech required

Cons:

- Requires three superb city sites
- Requires at least one strong GP farm site
- Requires a lot of Great Artists for speed, while still having 4 GP on furs
- Caste System and Pacifism will be strongly needed for speed, limiting civic options and benefits of Spiritual trait
- Founding religions will be important, limiting tech path choices
- Sizable efforts needed to spread religions, build cathedrals, etc.
- Potential technological weakness in late game due to final culture push

UN Diplomatic

Pros:

- Does not require superb city sites (which may not be available)
- Does not require a strong GP farm site (although it would be helpful)
- Founding religions not critical
- Civic options more open, allowing better leveraging of Spiritual trait
- Feeding techs to AIs can accelerate overall tech pace for earlier finish

Cons:

- Must suck up to the AIs diplomatically (or vassalize them!), limiting many choices throughout entire game
- Difficult to control exact victory date
- More total tech required
- Requires a lot of GP bulbs for speed, while still having 4 GP on furs

This choice is probably going to be the biggest one we make for this game. I think UN diplo would be faster, IF we can manage the AIs effectively. But that is a huge question mark, and depends on a ton of factors we can not be sure of ahead of time. Cultural means we will control a lot more factors, but has a certain minimum amount of time required to actually accumulate the culture needed.

I think I should probably go look at some of the cultural victory strategy articles.

 

[Sleepless]

Haphazard1 I did read your original post, but haven't had a lot of time to think about this game so far until the test game.

A lot of the cultural posts are just about getting a cultural victory and not with the specific settings we have to adhere to. Cottages are one of the best forms of culture once you have a 100% slider (apparently ). Delhi looks a very strong burea capital anyway. The other best sites are usually other capitals. Possibly

We have a few thousand years before we really have to commit ourselves one way or the other so knowing our surroundings/immediate neighbours will have a big effect (obviously) on what victory type we go for.

 

[haphazard1]

We have a few thousand years before we really have to commit ourselves one way or the other so knowing our surroundings/immediate neighbours will have a big effect (obviously) on what victory type we go for.

We could wait, but that will likely mean a sub-optimal approach for whichever victory condition we eventually choose. Depending on which we decide on, different wonders will get priority, different techs will need to be researched earlier/later, and especially diplo will be different.

If we go for diplo, culture is always a possible fallback. But if we go for culture, then diplo is not likely to be possible as we will not put the effort into keeping the AIs happy.

A lot of the cultural posts are just about getting a cultural victory and not with the specific settings we have to adhere to. Cottages are one of the best forms of culture once you have a 100% slider (apparently ). Delhi looks a very strong burea capital anyway. The other best sites are usually other capitals. Possibly

The specifics of this scenario will be different, but the general concepts behind fast culture victories will still mostly apply. I have won a few culture victories, but only a couple of them were "intended from the start" culture wins.

Large numbers of artists, lots of commerce, and multipliers are the big keys to fast culture. So yes, strong commerce cities can be turned into legendary cities. But you need lots of multipliers, which means Nationalism (for Taj), Liberalism (for Free Speech) and lots of religions for cathedrals.

Bureaucracy is only available for a while, as you need Free Speech, so we can not count on that past mid-game. Pyramids can be helpful for Rep (beakers from all the artist specialists) or US (rush buy those cathedrals) without having to tech past Nationalism. Although as India we probably want Constitution for our UB. Caste + Pacifism for tons of artists, etc.

Lots of things to consider, and some of them we really need to know up front.

 

[Ozbenno]

Hey all,

Checking in for my lurking role. Haven't had a chance to get my head around what is going on here yet but will do so in the next while and add any (probably silly) comments then.

 

[Sleepless]

@Ozbenno all silly comments welcome as they will dilute mine.

The saves are available now. First decision where to settle? The warrior isn't going to give us much info. I'm not against moving away from the river. Although we lose the health bonus I don't think levees are going to come into play much in this game.

From what I can tell at the moment is in place or the plains hill. I'm not keen on the latter as unless there are some hills hidden away (looks like a hill SE of the PH) the city will lack production.

I think good possibilities of a resource on the plains hill or where the warrior is standing.

Initial tech path for me would be Agr/BW.

Just some initial thoughts

 

[JerichoHill]

I'm a sucker for the plains hill because we increase. I count at least 2 visible hills if we settle @ plains hill. I'd prefer to stay on the river because it helps us hook resources up faster (just road to the river rather than to a city, saves worker turns!!!

My best work is on AI diplomacy. My fellow Misfits can attest that I've pulled some Diplo out of my ass frequently in games. I suggest Diplo, but the starting path of Diplo/Cult isn't that different.

I would suggest Agri while we build a worker (this is why I like the plains hill)

Can we move the Warrior NW and then post a screenie? That is the direction that he would give us the most visible tiles.

 

[ianw1610]

I think it may be best if we make the Cultural vs Diplomatic decision up-front, as the strategies are very different (or at least, this is true when I play).

For Cultural games, I usually go for a Cottage economy, building the Oracle, Parthenon and Sistine Chapel.

For Diplomatic games, I usually go for a Specialist economy, building the Oracle, Pyramids and (sometimes) Great Library.

So, only the Oracle is common to both...

I agree that the Plains Hill looks like a good capital option, as a 2-hammer capital always helps, and I agree on researching Agriculture and building a Fast Worker from the start, to benefit from Farming the 2 Corn...

 

[JerichoHill]

Given I feel strongest under a diplo setting, I'm voting diplo because we should finish faster, and we dont have to rely on religion as much. My thinking is that we're going to do alot of warring. I intend of getting AIs to DOW on us when we are ready for them, and just get very, very big. We can arrange for one AI to be hated by the remainder, and it isn't that difficult to get the UN victory conditions on war basis.

 

[ianw1610]

I vote Diplomatic also. Often when playing for a Cultural victory, rivals can tech up to Rifling and beyond, and cause problems for a weaker defensive army which has been impacted by switching Research to Culture.

On the topic of our army, are there any thoughts about our Military strategy early in the game? Given that we cannot eliminate a rival, how early should we go into war mode? Should we look to steal a Worker from our nearest neighbour at the very start of the game??

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I expect that the Map Maker has many surprises in store for us, both for Culture builders and Diplomats alike.

Culture Victory:

A very aggressive Culture building strategy could be taken by building two hybrid Cottage/Hammer Cities, a Great Artist Farm and three Ancillary Cities building Temples and everything else, except Great Wonders. We would establish extremely strong Research and build all but the earliest Great Wonders in our two Cottage/Hammer Cities. We must build Mausoleum of Maussollos to extend our Golden Ages; We will have a few non-Great Artist Great People to start Golden Ages with due to the Great Wonder pollution in our Cottage Cities. The Sistine Chapel is absolutely essential. We should also target the Parthneon for the +50% GGP.

Technology path would be Agriculture -> The Wheel -> Pottery -> Writing -> Alphabet. The Capital would build a Library as soon as Writing is completed; two Scientists would be hired to generate a Great Scientist who would build an Academy in the Capital.

Complete trade routes (Open Borders) with each AI Civ ASAP, building roads and acquiring Sailing as necessary. This will accelerate natural Religion spread to our Cities.

We would research Aesthetics for the three Great Wonders it unlocks, but we would feed the AI Civs Aesthetics when we feel safe to do so and they would Research through Music for us. Generate 2 more Scientists for bulbing Philosophy and part of Education. We would aim for an extremely early completion of Liberalism at 500 BC (which may not be quite possible) and switch to Free Religion and take Nationalism, research Printing Press set Culture to 100 (for as much as possible while building Wealth). Trade for Literature, Drama and Music. Build whatever Cathedrals we can muster in our Cottage City. Bomb our Three Culture Cities with Great Works until we Win.

It would be a glorious Builder Empire and it would be great fun. However, there would be some risks.

TUN Diplomatic Victory:

Not sure this could be done sooner than a Cultural Victory. There's how many turns for Epic before a Resolution can be put up for a Vote? I have played TAP Religious Leader Diplomatic Victory too many times to accurately count, but I've never played for a TUN Diplomatic Victory (yet - that may change in SGOTM-11).

Path is simple, though the Map Maker will no doubt block our way in every direction we go. Take a gamble getting The Pyramids for early Representation. Take Civil Service via The Oracle, unless someone thinks Education is a viable goal via researching Theology -> Paper. Bee-line Mass Media with some diversions, generate numerous Great Scientists, bulb Philosophy, complete Education early bulbing 1-2 Great Scientists and build Oxford University (requires 6 Universities?). The early GS bulbs and/or The Oracle -> Civil Service or Education will be keys to getting a very early Oxford University.

Can we found a City with up to 20 Forests/Jungles for National Park and up to 20 free Scientists for the final Research push? Would that help justify Researching Biology? The +1F boost to Farms would be the other part of the justification of Researching Biology.

A key Diplomatic decision would be getting a Defensive Pact with all AI Civs on the same turn for the DP Diplomacy bonus. When the Fur is located, and we find an AI Civ in control, we just declare War, quickly take the City and sue for peace ASAP there after and attempt to resume all our previous Defensive Pacts. AI we DoW'ed may not agree to DP again, so it may be better to Vassalize it instead.

My Tentative Conclusion:

Well there's more to say about each Victory Condition, but I'm metaphorically out of breath at the moment. We can best try to come to some consensus about which Victory Condition to follow before doing anything else like ianw1610 has suggested.

At the moment I'm leaning toward a Cultural Victory. I suspect there will be fewer surprises and I'm convinced that a Cultural Victory can be completed before a TUN Diplomatic Victory.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I agree with moving the Settler onto the Plains Hill.

I suggest we move the Warrior to where it would reveal more Tiles to help cement the decision to settle our Capital on the Plains Hill. Thus:

Turn 0:

Warrior -> NE
Settler -> SE

Turn 1:

Warrior -> E
Settler builds Capital City, unless Warrior reveals something that suggests something better.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[haphazard1]

I am undecided so far on victory condition -- I see positives and negatives with both. But I have a few other thoughts:

- Settling the plains hill gives us an extra hammer per turn, and converts a no-food tile into the city center. It also saves a forest. It moves us away from both corn, so we do not get a 3F tile for the first 8 turns unless there is something in the fog. But if we go fast worker first, this does not really matter as we will have culture on the corn by the time we want to grow.

- Settling in place costs us a forest, but converts a plains tile into the city center and leaves the plains hill for higher production. We would have the corn available from the start, which might suggest a grow-first-while-building-warrior start. If we want an early religion this would also give an extra commerce from the river as we grow.

- Given the above, I vote for moving the warrior NW, and if nothing interesting is revealed moving the settler to the plains hill. The bonus hammer all game is extremely valuable, and the boost at the start with the first fast worker is a big edge - 5 turns worth.

- Very evil thought about the furs: what if they are behind a ring of mountains with no passages? Paratroopers would be required to take the barb city, so the required GPs and warriors could then be airlifted into the captured city to reach the furs tile. It would require a huge diversion on the tech tree from the standard paths for both victory conditions, which would be a huge monkey wrench in all the detailed plans for rapid victories.

Are our map makers that evil? We'll find out. If I can think of it while pondering what horrific twists they might have thrown into the scenario, I feel sure they at least considered it.

- Are we interested in an early religion? We get cheap temples as Spiritual, and the early happiness and culture for border pops could be very useful. It would be a significant diversion from initial economic techs, obviously. But leaving the early religions to the AIs may leave us without religion for some time. Effects on relations among the AIs is not really knowable, but more AI-founded religions probably means more AI-vs-AI wars and increased odds of an AI death. If we want a cultural victory, having access to more religions is also important.

That is all I have for now. I am going to play the test game a bit tomorrow, see what I encounter.

 

[JerichoHill]

A worker steal costs us a DOW marker on a civ. So that civ would be marked for 1 civ DOW. Given how much strategic emphasis I am placing on DOWs, I'd rather not waste one

(Note: Given a 2 worker steal, YES! Given Toku, YES!)

 

[ianw1610]

On the topic of Spies... they can be used, not only to change the Religious Civic, but also to change the Religion...

...so, for example, 1 turn before the UN vote in my test game I was in Judaism and Toku was in Islam... I used a Spy to convert him to Judaism also, which removed the Heathen Religion penalty, and added in a Brothers and Sisters of the Faith bonus, in readiness for the UN vote.

Also, I always keep 1 Spy stationed in each of my cities in every game, to defend against sabotage.

 

[haphazard1]

I agree with JerichoHill on worker steals -- we only get 2 DOWs, and need to keep one in reserve to gain control of the fur tile. At least until exploration reveals whether it is held by barbarians rather than an AI. But if we could get 2 workers, or 1 from Toku...might be worth it.

ianw1610, I tend to do the same thing with spies to defend my cities. At least until Security Bureaus, which have the same effect as a spy in the city tile. Placing spies on critical resource tiles also helps, as well as having a military unit. Usually can not afford to do this with every resource, but critical ones where you have only one source is often worthwhile. If we are at war when the victory turn finally arrives, we should consider doing this for our furs, ivory, silk, and dyes resources.

 

[ianw1610]

Turn 0:

Warrior -> NE

- Given the above, I vote for moving the warrior NW

Moving the Warrior NW will reveal more tiles, but moving it NE, if revealing a key resource, may lead to a change in our plans for the Settler's first move (such a change will likely not happen from a NW Warrior move). Are there any further thoughts on this?

Who wants to play the first turnset? (or, rather, the first turn, as we will discuss strategy again at the start of Turn 1...)

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I agree with JerichoHill on worker steals -- we only get 2 DOWs, and need to keep one in reserve to gain control of the fur tile. At least until exploration reveals whether it is held by barbarians rather than an AI. But if we could get 2 workers, or 1 from Toku...might be worth it.

We can afford to declare War against up to 2 AI Leaders as many times as required. Did anyone notice this would permit capturing two AI Capitals after their 2nd City is founded? Three Capital Cities could provide a great start for a Cultural Victory.

However, I'd prefer to delay our DoWs as much as possible, at least until it is clear who controls the Fur. We may also find it difficult to locate/acquire the other resources we are required to have; I doubt that we will be able to trade for them except via taking them from our Vassals.

We can do any number of DoWs against up to 2 AI Leaders. Let's make sure we pick the right two. Thus, I'd prefer no Worker steals, until we identify all six AI Leaders and locate all critical Resources and have sound plans for acquiring them. Knowing all six AI Leaders first is very important in case there are 4-5 War Mongers (low Peace Weights) and only 1-2 Peace Lovers (high Peace Weight). In such a case, it may be wise to save the DoW for the Peace Lovers, since it should be easy to cause War Mongers to attack us. Thus, I'm against attacking Tokugawa or any other War Monger on sight.

Sun Tzu Wu