SGOTM 11 - Fifth Element

AlanH · Apr 20, 2010

BtS SGOTM 11 - Welcome the Goddess

Welcome to your BtS SGOTM 11 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

You are playing as Gandhi and, appropriately, your civilization is dedicated to the worship of the Goddess of Peace, Eldine, who will enter the world to bring in an era of everlasting happiness on the very day that you prove her righteousness to the world by securing a peaceful victory over the other civilizations. There is but one problem. Eldine is currently naked and must be clothed when she enters the world. In order to clothe her in a manner as befits a great Goddess, you must have access to fur, dye, silk and ivory. Your Holy books tell you that Eldine will use the fur as a portal through which to enter the world, and to demonstrate your devotion to her, you must have a welcoming party ready on the fur: Four great people (to symbolise Eldine's greatness) and four warriors (to symbolise the toil and labour as you raised Eldine's great civilization from a single settler). This will be no easy feat, since rumour has it that fur is so rare that only one unique supply exists, and that is heavily guarded by the most vile barbarians. Doubtless this was the result of meddling by the Devil Satan when the world was young and the Gods not paying sufficient attention.

Oh, and Eldine detests war and all its trappings. On the day she enters the world, she will question your brother and sister AI civs to ascertain how you have treated them, and will be distressed beyond belief should she discover that you have been excessively warlike towards them - in that case she will reject your civilization and look for more worthy worshippers.

Your aim in this game is to welcome in Eldine by securing a cultural or diplomatic victory that satisfies the following conditions:

Every AI is still alive and running a state religion.
All your cities have access to fur, dye, silk and ivory.
You have the welcoming party of four great people and four warriors standing ready on the only fur in the world. (The great people can be of any type)
You are running a state religion which has been spread to every one of your cities.
No more than two AIs have a 'you declared war on us' negative modifier towards you.

The winner of the competition is the team that secures the earliest (measured by date) cultural or diplomatic victory where all these conditions are satisfied on the turn of your victory. Obviously your game is forfeit should you lose the game or win by some other victory condition. If you win a cultural or diplomatic victory without satisfying all the conditions, your game will be listed and ranked within a secondary group for the amusement of other teams (especially if you do something silly that makes it impossible for you satisfy the conditions, like letting ivory become obsolete, or having fewer than 4 warriors when your tech becomes too advanced to let you build any more).

Timetable
The start files will be published on Friday, April 23 here. There will be one start file per team. Please ensure that you only download your own team file.

The finish deadline is August 23 2010. If any team has not finished by this date they will be deemed to have retired, and will not be eligible for any awards.

Starting Position
Here's the starting position - click the image below to see a larger version.

Map Parameters

Playable Leader/Civ - Gandhi of India
Traits - Spiritual, Philosophical (starts with Mysticism and Mining)
Unique Unit - Fast Worker (replaces Worker)
Unique Building - Mausoleum (replaces Jail)
Starting Era - Ancient
Difficulty - Emperor
Game Speed - Epic (750 turns)
World size - Standard
Rivals - Six
Landform - Fractal
Sea level - Medium
Climate - Temperate
Other settings - No goodie huts, No events
Victory Conditions - All enabled

Notes

Versions
This game will be played in Civilization IV Beyond the Sword, version 3.19, using the HoF Mod BUFFY-3.19.003. This HoF Mod version is available here.

If a later BtS patch, or BUFFY version, is released during this game you will NOT be able to use it to play. You will need to complete this game in the above versions before updating your copy of BtS, or create and update a separate copy.

Mac players can only join in if they are able to run the Windows game on their system.
Awards
Teams will compete for up to four awards - the Gold, Silver and Bronze Laurels for the Fastest victory that meets the above stated conditions, and the Wooden Spoons for the lowest scoring finisher.
Rules and Procedures
Please visit the Civ4 SGOTM reference thread to check out the rules and procedures to ensure that you are adequately prepared for this game.

All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.

Have fun

BLubmuz · Apr 21, 2010

Index of Fifth Element turnset reports for SGotM11:
The linked post has a link to the thread which opens the entire page.

SGotMs results page

Game start: 2010/04/23 - Game end: 2010/08/23

01-t 000-018 05/01 - (r1p1) Irgy - Settled in place, founded Hinduism, forget to switch to worker t 12 - end 3550 BC
02-t 018-036 05/04 - (r1p2) Unclethrill - warrior and worker out, Agri in - end 3100 BC
03-t 036-060 05/07 - (r1p3) Mitchum - Masonry in, Mono almost, settler for city #2 almost
04-t 060-073 05/10 - (r1p4) Blubmuz - Judaism founded, copper discovered, land explored
05-t 073-090 05/19 - (r1p5) Havr - more land revealed, 3rd city founded, Oracle almost in
06-t 090-105 05/26 - (r1p6) Dhoomstriker - first round for writing/Oracle/CoL, then the Wheel in
07-t 105-120 06/02 - (r2p1) Irgy - Christianity founded in city #4, city #5 on its way
08-t 120-133 06/10 - (r2p2) Mitchum
09-t 133-148 06/19 - (r2p3) Unclethrill - met Saladin
10-t 148-162 06/29 - (r2p4) Blubmuz - Lot of trades after Alpha, met Toku, HG almost in.
11-t 174-192 07/14 - (r2p5) Dhoomstriker - 1st Partial TS (turn 175) ended 07/06 - Last AI met, wonders, techs, Buddhism ... too many
12-t 192-209 07/20 - (r3p1) - Mitchum - Parthenon (Delhi), AP (Wheaties), NE (GP Farm), Moai (Silverado). GE and GS born - lot more...
13-t 209-230 07/27 - (r3p2) Irgy - (2 sessions, 1st 07/24) OU almost in, many things
14-t 230-250 08/04 - (r3p3) Blubmuz - (3 sessions with "live aid") not much, but many Diplo events.
14-t 250-269 08/07 - (r3p4) - Dhoomstriker - (2 sessions, 1st 08/03) Fur under control - Radio from Lib on turn 269 (1240 AD)
15-t 269-276 08/11 - (r3p5) - Unclethrill - 2 Ottoman cities captured, silk (almost) under control
16-t 276-279 08/14 - (r4p1) - Mitchum (part 1) - UN built - Sec Gen won with all the non-candidate votes (but Mehmed, of course)
17-t 283-287 (end) 08/18 - (r4p1) - Mitchum (part 2) - No creative strategies, just bribing and trading... game won... at least. All the conditions met, get all the non-candidate votes. And with 5 days left.

BLubmuz · Apr 21, 2010

Roster:
Dhoomstriker - UP
Unclethrill - on deck
Mitchum
Dhoomstriker - to Victory
Irgy - waiting next one
Blubmuz - waiting next one

Dhoomstriker - resting

Mitchum (vacation 07/21 to 07/31)
Unclethrill (vacation 07/23 to 07/29)
Standby: Havr, until news.
Cancelled: Tata, no posts since 04/27.

Schedule : (v3.0 after Dhoom's comments)

Mitchum : t.192-209 save 07/19 - actual: 07/20
Irgy: t.209-230 save 07/24- actual: 07/27
Blubmuz: t.230-250 save 07/29- actual: 08/04
Dhoomstriker : t.250-269 save 08/03- actual: 08/07
Unclethrill: t.269-276 save 08/08 - replanned: 08-11
Mitchum: t.276-283 save 08/13 - replanned: 08-15
Dhoomstriker: t.283-end (28x?) save 08/18 - replanned: 08-20

Strategy key points:

Spoiler :

WFYABTA

Spoiler :

Links to previous Pre-Play-Plans

Spoiler :

BLubmuz · Apr 21, 2010

Fifth Element Team Rules

1. Strive for Consensus
2. Majority Rules
3. If there is a tie:
a. Discussion will occur for a minimum of 24 hours.
b. If a clear majority is not formed in 24 hours, Team Captain will post a Decision Deadlock message with a short description of the conflicting ideas and a time limit between 24-48 hours to take a decision.
c. If a clear majority is still not made, the Team Captain will cast one additional vote to break the tie.

4. No Rogue play: Intentional straying from a PPP will not be tolerated
5. If a modification to the proposed play is needed mid-turnset or if an unanticipated decision is required:
a. Player will save game as soon as possible
b. Post a message describing the issue
c. Will allow a minimum of 24 hours for feedback from other team members
d. Will follow the Majority Rules plan
e. Will continue the turnset based on team decision

6. Never use city automation. If necessary, inform team.
7. Never automate workers.
8. Never give goto orders that will go past your last turn. Prefer to not use goto orders at all
9. Check all cities: assigned tiles, build queue, specialists at the beginning of the first turn and before ending any turn
10. Do not promote units unless required at the front line or if expressly discussed in PPP

11. After a completed TS, the up player has 24 hours to post a Got It message indicating that they have downloaded the save and have begun the PPP
a. After Got It message, up player has 24 hours (unless expressly requesting longer) to post a PPP
b. Level of detail of PPP will be at the up players discretion but if requested additional specifics will be added

12. All PPP / Turnsets will be played with the Overall Strategy in mind and as the driving factor

13. A minimum of 24 hours will be allowed from posting of PPP to playing of TS.
a. Any suggestion to modify PPP will be accompanied with a justification that relates to the overall strategy.
b. Conflicting suggestions will require a discussion with playing not beginning until a clear decision is made. Majority Rules plan will be followed as necessary.

14. A post-TS message will be posted that includes a summary description of what occurred on the turnset. And posting the Autolog (the one BUFFY produces).
15. If a team member is likely to be unable to post for an extended period of time, an away for XX days message will be posted if possible. XX should be the best estimate.

16. If a turn set is specified to end on turn Y, then on turn Y all moves will be made as needed. The game will be saved before clicking end turn.
a. The next turnset will begin on turn Y.
b. Turnset length will not be extended during the active turnset.
c. A turnset can be ended early if the up player decides to finish.

17. We are a team and will treat each other with respect!

Fifth Element's Team Leader is BLubmuz!

Please also refer to:
Viewing Threads
and C-IV SGOTM Reference Thread
for less experienced XotM players also:
Please Read: Welcome to the C-IV GOTM
and List of allowed & disallowed exploits & strategies. and this one for a new BANNED Exploit

BLubmuz · Apr 21, 2010

This post will be periodically updated with the estimated finish date.
For now, we'll use the best HoF dates, just to be sure we can finish in time.

First (rough) schedule on April 22, when the game is not started yet.

Assumptions:

Spoiler :

330 turns/15 = 22 TSs, 122 days mean 5.5 days/TS

New forecast to match the deadline (2010/06/07)

Spoiler :

BLubmuz · Apr 21, 2010

Hi all,
welcome back Unclethrill, we seem to be the only survivors from previous SGs.
welcome to Irgy, Dhoomstriker and Mitchum with who we're already started a practice SG (on a completely different VC)
and welcome to havr and Tata, our "drafted-by-Alan" members. In the past many of them gave great contribution to the team. I hope you will do the same.

I hope we all will have a great fun in playing this game (probably something less than a normal game, since we're tied to be almost peaceful).

Let's start the discussion on this game:
I think the first decision to take is which victory will be pursued between Culture and Diplomatic.
This will influence any further decision, included where/when to settle. Probably not how to move the warrior, who can't help much the decision of where to settle.

Mitchum · Apr 21, 2010

Checking in. Don't forget to add havr and Tata to the roster in post 3.

Also, for those of us new to SGOTM (including me) be very careful if you download the save. Don't do ANYTHING with the save that is irreversible. This includes moving units, hitting end turn, making trades, switch civics, etc. You can however do things that can be reversed, such as look into cities, change tiles citzens are working, change tech researched, enter diplomacy screen and see what trades are available (don't accept them, of course), etc.

If you do make an irreversible move or you're unsure, save the game and notify the team. Then we can discuss what to do next, but we'll most likely have to live the move unless what you did is actually reversible.

Most of all, I'm looking forward having FUN, learning from all of you and sharing what little wisdom I can with you in return...

Edit: I forgot to add, be sure to subscribe to this thread. That way, you get instant e-mail notification if someone has posted here. That keeps you from having to log in every few hours (or days) to see if someone has posted anything.

Irgy · Apr 21, 2010

Hi everyone. I'm itching to give my analysis of the victory conditions so here I go straight into it.

Firstly, I'll note that we can play on for the rest of the turn after we acheive victory, just not finish the turn. So a number of these things we can wait and do after we've already won. I'm thinking particularly the state religeon thing here.

* Every AI is still alive and running a state religion.
This pretty well means not running the "free religeon" civic. We can change this with spies. Once we've researched mass media, we can set our slider to ep production, focusing on those AIs who are inclined towards free religeon, and make sure we have spies in each of their cities. No point wasting EPs switching them earlier when they can switch back. Someone needs to confirm whether switching out of free religeon will automatically bring the state religeon back if there was one before switching to it.

* All your cities have access to fur, dye, silk and ivory.
We need to control the fur anyway. How easy the others are to get isn't clear. We may need to declare war to get some of these, so as such we must not waste our limited war declarations until we know where these resources are.

* You have the welcoming party of four great people and four warriors standing ready on the only fur in the world. (The great people can be of any type)
The warriors we just need to build early, and keep in a safe place. The great people requirement is going to take some planning. We'll need to figure out how many great people we can generate before the end of the game, and probably keep the last four. We can consider getting the Music and Physics great people and maybe Communism and Economics as well to help with this.

* You are running a state religion which has been spread to every one of your cities.
This ought to be fairly straightforward, just something to double check as we come up to the last few turns. We can leave this until later.

* No more than two AIs have a 'you declared war on us' negative modifier towards you.
So, a diplomation victory is less likely here. We need to save these war declarations for getting the resources we need if neccesary. Still, being able to vassal two civs at some stage does make diplomatic victory a lot easier than having to be completely peaceful.

As a diplomatic victory in a team game, one important issue is going to be demands from AIs. We really need to think carefully about how to respond, and we're not going to know when they're coming. I don't think you can even save while the AI screen is up. What do we do in this case? Plan out all possible responses beforehand? Leave the game running and alt-tab out to get the team's advice?

BLubmuz · Apr 21, 2010

Irgy, i don't quote for lenght reasons.

The first thing i did was to open the HoF page to see which VC is the fastest on Epic/Emperor/Standard map.
At present, there's a 1708 for Cultural and a 1556 for Diplo. Both players are good players, even if not Top players.
In fact, if you just read the Small map games, you can see that Jesusin (definitely one of the best players around and a specialist in Cultural) beaten Misotu's Diplo by 2 years. Misotu is a good player, if not a top player.

FYI both those VCs are the ones i like less, after the AP. My diplo strategy in Vanilla/Warlords was "conquer enough population to self vote". And we can't use this in BtS, the less in this particular game.

Of course all our cities will be connected, i don't think how they can't after Astro... unless the map maker invented something very strange.
The location of the 4 requested resources... live and see.

The 4 warriors: I suspect that plains hill has copper. It can be enough not research hunting and we can continue build warriors even if we have copper.

About the AIs running a state religion so late in the game, i made some objections in the rules thread, since this can be a random factor. I hope that the game designer have chosen AIs with OR, Theo or Pacifism as their favourite civic, so they won't switch to FR until very late in the game. In any case, there're the spies and the bribing, provided FR is not their FC.

As Gandhi we probably have little problems in generating GPeople, so this is my last concern.

Also the state religion in all our cities is not a great concern. Unless there're strange surprises we should be able to achieve this with ease and hopefully long before we arrive to the victory.

While writing, one thing comes in mind: what if the mapmaker has placed the furs in a single tile island guarded by a Mech infantry? Do we attack it with maces or rifles? how many?

About the war declarations, i think that we can spend one in an early war to gain land and possibly cities, without crippling the AI too much but vassalizing it.
And keep the second if we need to fight on a later stage.

We can also try to piss off some AI, but we need to be sure it will declare and that we can vassal it. But i don't think this will fit much with a Diplo game.

About demands from AIs:
i remember that once a player seen a demand he shuted off the game with the Task manager.
I don't know if this is inside the HoF rules, at least it's on the edge.
The Alt+Tab option will force the active player to not shut the PC until the Team has decided, thus i don't see it well.
The best thing we can do is to plan what we can give to the AI if they make a request.
Then i'll post it on #3 and this will be the guide for all of us.
I guess i can say right now that we'll never accept to join a war, unless this is our planned expansion war or it happens on a later stage and the "victim" is hated by all the AIs.

Dhoomstriker · Apr 21, 2010

Dhoomstriker checking in. It is too bad that we didn't get to finish all of our discussion about rules, as well as responsibilities of team members, such as the responsibilities of the current "up" player, before our team thread became active, so we'll just have to continue any such discussions here as we play the game.

As a friendly reminder, kindly do not open any SGOTM 11 threads belonging to other teams. As far as I am aware (can you confirm, please, BLubmuz?), we are allowed to continue to read their old threads from previous games (SGOTM 10 and earlier), but if you find a need to do so, be very careful about which thread that you open.

While I'm on the subject, I ask that you don't link to our team thread in a public place, such as in your signature. Doing so is just setting a "trap" for other players and if AlanH manages not to catch a rival player opening our thread or else decides to blame us because we set up the "trap," then we would have given out free intelligence on our strategy. Go ahead and bookmark the team thread in your favourite browser, even going so far as to put it in your "Links," "Personal Folders," or "Bookmarks Toolbar Folder" area, to keep the link front and centre when you open your web browser.

Dhoomstriker · Apr 21, 2010

A big warm welcome goes out to havr and Tata! We demand a lot out of our teammates in terms of respecting your teammates, their right to express their opinions, and the team's rules, but in return you get an environment of open discussion, friendly players, a chance to show off your skills, a chance to learn a lot, and the opportunity to have a lot of fun! Welcome! :goodjob:

unclethrill · Apr 21, 2010

Checking in. I'll comment on the posts so far later tonight after the boss leaves!

Dhoomstriker · Apr 21, 2010

BLubmuz said:
Reserved for something

We still need to put in Game Options (Ctrl + O) that are required by team members to enable or disable and BUFFY Options (Ctrl + Alt + O) that are also required by team members to enable or disable.

We should also include links to each of the rules pages for XOTM games.
We should also include brief instructions (or a link to said instructions) for setting up your game to autosave on each turn. I will refuse to allow someone on the team to play if they do not follow this last point, as a game crash with autosaves not set to each turn can very easily disqualify the team and all of our hard work, in the event of a power loss or other event that shuts off your game.

If no one else gets this info in the next little while, then I'll try and update this message before the game starts with the relevant info.

Dhoomstriker · Apr 21, 2010

BLubmuz said:
Irgy, i don't quote for lenght reasons.

If that is your reason, then I'd ask that you do put in the quotes. I think that most of us would agree that clearer communication is preferable to having to scroll extra lines with a mousewheel.

It is easy for the READER to choose to skip reading a quote or not. With the quotes on this forum being coloured differently from other text, it is easy for the eye to pick out the difference and you won't need to re-read the quotes if you do not want to. But, if the quote is not there, those that want to read it have to backtrack through several other messages just to pick up the flow of the conversation.

Consider that the messages from other people are "fresh in your mind" just after you read them and when you are commenting on them. However, we don't all read the same messages in the same order, so a lot of what is "fresh" for you is no longer "fresh" in the minds of others, as they may have read some of those messages previously.

Taking the time to quote the relevant text is doing your teammates a courtesy. It doesn't take long to do, but what it does do is it saves EACH AND EVERY READER that reads part or all of the quote more time than it took you to quote the text. Multiply this time savings by each READER that read the quote or part of it and you'll see that you've saved the team a lot of time, pain, and headaches that can be better spent on discussing strategy.

On another note, I have been contemplating creating some "game lessons" in relation to micromanagement decisions. The idea would be that I would set up a scenario that could happen in a real game and give you a mini-goal that you could accomplish within a few turns. My current thinking is that I will set up tasks that can be accomplished with and without micro, but that if you find the optimal way of micromanaging the task, you'll save a turn or two--which is the whole point of knowing how to micromanage--that SOMETIMES you can save a turn or two to accomplish the same mini-goal, which over the course of the game, adds up to a strong victory compared to a mediocre one. Would members of the team be interested in such exercises? I don't have a lot of time now to set these up, but if there is interest, I would like to start running one in early May (I'd of course like to start earlier, but I can't guarantee having the time to do so at this stage). If it goes well with the first one, then I can create more of them.

BLubmuz · Apr 21, 2010

Dhoomstriker said:
Dhoomstriker checking in. It is too bad that we didn't get to finish all of our discussion about rules, as well as responsibilities of team members, such as the responsibilities of the current "up" player, before our team thread became active, so we'll just have to continue any such discussions here as we play the game.

As a friendly reminder, kindly do not open any SGOTM 11 threads belonging to other teams. As far as I am aware (can you confirm, please, BLubmuz?), we are allowed to continue to read their old threads from previous games (SGOTM 10 and earlier), but if you find a need to do so, be very careful about which thread that you open.

Correct. We're free to open any previous SG thread, but not any present SG thread.

While I'm on the subject, I ask that you don't link to our team thread in a public place, such as in your signature. Doing so is just setting a "trap" for other players and if AlanH manages not to catch a rival player opening our thread or else decides to blame us because we set up the "trap," then we would have given out free intelligence on our strategy. Go ahead and bookmark the team thread in your favourite browser, even going so far as to put it in your "Links," "Personal Folders," or "Bookmarks Toolbar Folder" area, to keep the link front and centre when you open your web browser.

Yes, it happened that a player of another team did what you described. He was promptly informed and he provided to remove the link.

Talkin'bout links, i personally use Firefox and i linked in the main bar (no need to open bookmarks) the main thread instead of this one. In this way i can see if there're posts i haven't read yet without the need to actually open and search the last page of this thread.

BLubmuz · Apr 21, 2010

Dhoomstriker said:
We still need to put in Game Options (Ctrl + O) that are required by team members to enable or disable and BUFFY Options (Ctrl + Alt + O) that are also required by team members to enable or disable.

In the normal game options (Ctrl + O) we have to set:
Not checked:
- stack attack
- Units auto-promote
- workers start automated
- missionaries and executives start automated
- city governor build workboat
- city governor build worker

Checked:
- wait end of turn
- show enemy moves
- automated workers leave old improvements
- automated workers leave forests
(the last 2 are pretty useless, if you don't automate workers - and you don't - but just to be sure)

For the rest, there's nothing mandatory

BUFFY Options (Ctrl + Alt + O)
Too long to list. I recommend to leave all the advisors ON, since they all give valuable informations.
Watch the unit naming, i usually use the default. I've tried to change options but nothing changed .
Another useful thing is the scoreboard: probably not all the options, but many are useful.
What we focus now is the Logging tab
- You MUST check all the first 5 options
- set the path where the autolog will be saved
- in the name you can set anything, but the extension MUST be .TXT
- last, you'll set the Format style to - Forum tags with " around color codes -

I usually leave all the options checked, and i think we must do so if this will be a Diplo game. But we can discuss this later

We should also include links to each of the rules pages for XOTM games.
We should also include brief instructions (or a link to said instructions) for setting up your game to autosave on each turn. I will refuse to allow someone on the team to play if they do not follow this last point, as a game crash with autosaves not set to each turn can very easily disqualify the team and all of our hard work, in the event of a power loss or other event that shuts off your game.

If no one else gets this info in the next little while, then I'll try and update this message before the game starts with the relevant info.

Links to the threads you mentioned are already provided in my #4.

In that post i copy/pasted the rules UT posted in our practice game thread, with some minor variations i suggested there.

BTW no one commented there, so i think the #4 lists our approved rules.

Speaking of set up, i made those changes to my CivilizationIV.ini (if you got Vanilla and the 2 expansions, you have one file with the same name for each):

Code:

; The maximum number of autosaves kept in the directory before being deleted.
MaxAutoSaves = 19

; Specify the number of turns between autoSaves.  0 means no autosave.
AutoSaveInterval = 1

those options are roughly in the middle of the file. all you need is to open it in Notepad and change the parameters as above.

The 19 autosaves is a choice i find useful for test games, you don't actually need more than 9.

BLubmuz · Apr 21, 2010

Dhoomstriker said:
If that is your reason, then I'd ask that you do put in the quotes. I think that most of us would agree that clearer communication is preferable to having to scroll extra lines with a mousewheel.

It is easy for the READER to choose to skip reading a quote or not. With the quotes on this forum being coloured differently from other text, it is easy for the eye to pick out the difference and you won't need to re-read the quotes if you do not want to. But, if the quote is not there, those that want to read it have to backtrack through several other messages just to pick up the flow of the conversation.

Consider that the messages from other people are "fresh in your mind" just after you read them and when you are commenting on them. However, we don't all read the same messages in the same order, so a lot of what is "fresh" for you is no longer "fresh" in the minds of others, as they may have read some of those messages previously.

Taking the time to quote the relevant text is doing your teammates a courtesy. It doesn't take long to do, but what it does do is it saves EACH AND EVERY READER that reads part or all of the quote more time than it took you to quote the text. Multiply this time savings by each READER that read the quote or part of it and you'll see that you've saved the team a lot of time, pain, and headaches that can be better spent on discussing strategy.

On another note, I have been contemplating creating some "game lessons" in relation to micromanagement decisions. The idea would be that I would set up a scenario that could happen in a real game and give you a mini-goal that you could accomplish within a few turns. My current thinking is that I will set up tasks that can be accomplished with and without micro, but that if you find the optimal way of micromanaging the task, you'll save a turn or two--which is the whole point of knowing how to micromanage--that SOMETIMES you can save a turn or two to accomplish the same mini-goal, which over the course of the game, adds up to a strong victory compared to a mediocre one. Would members of the team be interested in such exercises? I don't have a lot of time now to set these up, but if there is interest, I would like to start running one in early May (I'd of course like to start earlier, but I can't guarantee having the time to do so at this stage). If it goes well with the first one, then I can create more of them.

You're right, but: my post was right below Irgy's one and it wasn't necessary to quote it. i.e. i quote yours now 'cause there're many posts between your quoted one and this one. Even if i can see your point, sometimes is not necessary. Sometimes is not possible, due to excessive lenght. Anyway is a minor problem.

I'm very mindful in MM, but of course there're many ways to do it, depending on what task you have to accomplish. i.e. sometime you'll want to time the growth with a certain build, sometime the opposite, sometime you must choose.
Any help on this will be appreciated, even if i can't see how you can manage those exercise with the limited communication we have.
But i will be more than happy to see what you can do if that can improve my gameplay.

BTW, i'm a maniac in SGs, but i tend to be careless in my (few) solo games since i play fast.

For a SG TS, discussed for days with rivers of ink, it's mandatory to play with the best of our attention for the few minutes needed to complete a TS.

Mitchum · Apr 21, 2010

Irgy said:
Firstly, I'll note that we can play on for the rest of the turn after we acheive victory, just not finish the turn. So a number of these things we can wait and do after we've already won. I'm thinking particularly the state religeon thing here.

Very clever. I like it. :goodjob:

This will allow us to avoid negative diplo points for not having the same religion (thus winning the UN election) while still meeting the state religion requirement.

Irgy said:
No more than two AIs have a 'you declared war on us' negative modifier towards you.
So, a diplomation victory is less likely here. We need to save these war declarations for getting the resources we need if neccesary. Still, being able to vassal two civs at some stage does make diplomatic victory a lot easier than having to be completely peaceful.

Question: If we declare war on an AI and it later vassalizes to us, will we still get the 'you declared war on us' penalty? I'm sure that this has been asked and answered, but I couldn't find it.

Irgy said:
As a diplomatic victory in a team game, one important issue is going to be demands from AIs. We really need to think carefully about how to respond, and we're not going to know when they're coming. I don't think you can even save while the AI screen is up. What do we do in this case? Plan out all possible responses beforehand? Leave the game running and alt-tab out to get the team's advice?

I think we should try to play our turnsets at a time that is convenient for much of the team (if possible) when we can all be on-line or near our computer. Then, if an AI makes a demand, the up player can Alt-Tab, post a message in our thread and wait for a minimum of 2 hours (or longer if he can leave the computer on with the game running in the background) for discussion or advice. If no response, the player should continue based on "his decision".

As suggested a few times, we should have general guidelines that have been agreed regarding which AI to always accept demands, which to always reject and any area in between. That way, the "his decision" above should follow these pre-agreed guidelines.

Mitchum · Apr 21, 2010

BLubmuz said:
The 4 warriors: I suspect that plains hill has copper. It can be enough not research hunting and we can continue build warriors even if we have copper.

Or, if we need hunting for some reason and we also need to hook up Copper for axe or spear barb-control units, we can always trade (or gift :eek:

) our Copper for 10 turns while we build the required warriors (may be better to have more than 4 in case we need to upgrade one in an emergency). This also gives us positive trade relations with the trading partner.

BLubmuz said:
While writing, one thing comes in mind: what if the mapmaker has placed the furs in a single tile island guarded by a Mech infantry? Do we attack it with maces or rifles? how many?

I don't think we can answer this question until we know the details...

BLubmuz said:
About the war declarations, i think that we can spend one in an early war to gain land and possibly cities, without crippling the AI too much but vassalizing it.

I disagree with this. I think we should wait until we know where all of the required resources are before we declare any wars. Knowing the map-makers from GOTM games, we may be required to declare 2 wars in order to get said resources. We'd be better off holding off until we understand the whole situation, which may mean no declared wars until after Optics.

BLubmuz said:
I guess i can say right now that we'll never accept to join a war, unless this is our planned expansion war or it happens on a later stage and the "victim" is hated by all the AIs.

I have one addition. It may make also sense to join a war if we already have a 'you declared war on us' penalty with the victim AI.

Mitchum · Apr 21, 2010

Dhoomstriker said:
On another note, I have been contemplating creating some "game lessons" in relation to micromanagement decisions.

Count me in. If you have something to teach, I'm willing to learn.

Like BLubmuz, when playing a focused 20 turns, I am very good at paying attention to small details. However, also like BLubmuz, when playing single-player games, I don't check every city every turn so I do make minor mistakes which can add up to several turns lost by the end of the game. I'm sure that all of us will play more carefully in this SGOTM that we do in our own private games.

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