SGOTM 11 - Fifth Element

[Mitchum]

I ran a small test too.
You can get Oracle by turn 90, if you delay building the third city to right before you get Oracle+Writing (which you get at the same turn using choping). This works even if that third city is very far. You have to prepare the settler, of course, but not use it.

The tradeoff:
+ better city placement
+ earlier oracle
- City 3 is built later.

Thanks for running that test. Shaving off four turns on the Oracle could be the difference between winning or losing the race.

Your test delays settling our thrid city by >15 turns. The reason I say >15 is because I had to delay the settling of my third city until T75 due to barb archer activity. I had most of my warriors fortified inside my capital, so I assume this delay could have been avoided had I been actually playing the game and using my warriors appropriately.

So, we'll have to see how our game plays out and find out where we would actually like to settle our initial cities and which religious nuts are in our game. This 15 turn delay may make sense... although I typically don't like to do so.

 

[havr]

Interesting. I'll have to try that. Where did you settle city 2?

Near the silver, like Mitchum.

 

[Mitchum]

Near the silver, like Mitchum.

Did you have the silver mine built the turn you founded the city so that you could work it right away? On what turn did you settle the city? I'm thinking that we may be able to pull that in even more if we really focus on it...

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Dhoomstriker said something about assigning 100% espionage to the first civ we meet. It's automatically at 100%, so I'm not sure what the benefit is.

BTW, can you tell by looking at the espionage screen if Zara has met another civ besides us?

1000 posts!!!

Weight 1 to the first Civ that we meet. Weight 0 to all others (i.e. nothing to change for all others)

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Ok people, we have ourselves a situation.

Run SW. The Bear will likely not follow you onto that peninsula. Even if it does, then you move onto the other Forest that the Bear did not move onto on your following turn. Simple.

EDIT: If he doesn't follow you, then end your turn 3 turns and hope that he runs away in that time.

 

[Mitchum]

Run SW. The Bear will likely not follow you onto that peninsula. Even if it does, then you move onto the other Forest that the Bear did not move onto on your following turn. Simple.

That would work short term, but the bear will likely go back and forth, so you'd eventually either have to face off with it or hide on the peninsula forever...

 

[Mitchum]

Weight 1 to the first Civ that we meet. Weight 0 to all others (i.e. nothing to change for all others)

Why? What if we meet a religious / wonder nut as our second AI. Wouldn't it be better to put all espionage points toward that civ rather than Zara (the first one we met)?

 

[havr]

Did you have the silver mine built the turn you founded the city so that you could work it right away? On what turn did you settle the city? I'm thinking that we may be able to pull that in even more if we really focus on it...

I don't remember exactly, but I think it was a turn or two after I founded the city.
We can probably get it earlier - I am not very good at micro-management (although I did my best), so if I got it at T90, you can probably get it earlier.

 

[Irgy]

So, I have some good news and some bad news. Unfortunately, I can't really take any credit for the good news, but have to take full responsability for the bad news.

First, the good news anyway:
* The bear didn't attack, and we got away.
* We've founded Hinduism!
* We've also found some marble, and it's in a good city spot, although there's maybe not a lot of forest near it.

The bad news: I forgot to switch the build to a worker

I only really had 1 thing to remember to do this turnset, and I forgot to do it. I am such a complete %@#$ing idiot that I don't really even want to show my face here and own up to it, but avoiding the problem just makes it worse for everyone.

It's only 18 turns, but I'm ending the turnset here for discussion of what to do about my total screw-up. I might as well just pass it on to the next player, as there's only 2 turns to go anyway.

I was being so careful with everything else - all the warrior moves, taking notes, marking animal sightings, and writing down all the messages I saw. Notably not including the buffy message "Dehli will grow to size 2 next turn", which hasn't appeared - or at least it's not in the message log, while the other buffy message about border expansions is there. Maybe I need to change my settings for 3.19.003, as opposed to .001 which I had before upgrading for this game? It's no excuse, it's just in the category of "how to prevent this happening in the future".

I spend pages arguing about the importance of improved corn one or two turns earlier, and then I go and do this.

Events of note:
T4 - Met ethiopia. They came from the east.
T8 - Bear drama.
T11 - Epic turn-player fail begins.
T12 - Buddhims FIADL.
T12-18 - Epic turn-player fail continues.
T18 - Hinduism founded in Dehli.

Screenshots:

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=251163&stc=1&d=1272668409

Other notes:
* The two lion markings are where lions were both sighted last turn, which is the reason my warrior is in the stupid place he is in. I've never seen so many animals! We probably need to head back east, hopefully this turn though we won't be walking into two lions at once.
* At this stage, the worker will build a turn faster if we grow all the way to pop 3, so we might as well do that now. We may want to then spend 1 turn to finish the warrior.

I'm very sorry to everyone.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Why? What if we meet a religious / wonder nut as our second AI. Wouldn't it be better to put all espionage points toward that civ rather than Zara (the first one we met)?

Okay, someone asked why. Now I am allowed to spam the thread. Actually, this one's pretty simple to explain.

The first AI/human that an AI will meet will get Espionage points allocated to them.

Once they've met a couple, then how they decide to split up Espionage points relies on:
1. If they strongly dislike someone, then all Espionage points will go to them
2. If no Espionage points are assigned from the other player, then they have the smallest likelihood of assigning Espionage points back

What I have found, due to point 2, is that if you assign 0 Espionage points to almost all AI, then they won't assign any to you. That means that later in the game, once we've got some Courthouses, we can turn the full bore of Espionage onto an Opponent that has 0/0 Espionage points with us.

Immediately, you'll be adding 12 or more Espionage points per turn and can quickly get city visibility on them.

However, if you assign even ONE Espionage point to an AI, then they by default tend to start assigning some or all of their Espionage points to you.

You can't control what they do if you are the first player that they meet, but if you aren't the first player that they meet and if you assign 0 Espionage points to them, then you can have a SIGNIFICANT advantage later on when they still haven't assigned any Espionage points to you.


Meanwhile, the first AI that you met will get ALL of your Espionage points. Normally, you can't assign as many Espionage points to an AI as they do to you on higher levels, as they "cheat" by running 10% or 20% Espionage rate every once and a while. But, with all points assigned to just 1 AI, you have the greatest chance of letting your Palace's points work in your favour, possibly netting you a single opponent where you have more points invested in them than they do in you.


Summary
Don't assign Espionage points to an AI and in many cases, they won't assign any to you. Since by default you will assign Espionage points to every AI, the only control over Espionage that you have is to assign all points to the first AI that you meet (i.e. give that AI Weight 1 on the Espionage screen).

You can use the fact that they didn't spend any points on you to your advantage in the future. However, if you assign even 1 (which will happen automatically if they meet you (instead of you meeting them) without you having assigned any Weights, then they'll forever try and assign Espionage points to you unless someone out there is REALLY hated by them--which will happen later on in the game at best, so it's stupid to distribute your Espionage points across more than 1 AI early in the game. The luck of the draw of who you meet first is who will get all of your Espionage points.

 

[havr]

Thanks for running that test. Shaving off four turns on the Oracle could be the difference between winning or losing the race.

Remember also that if you get the Oracle X turns earlier, you are also going to get the first Great Prophet X turns earlier (lets assume you will not have time to build a temple...), and you will be able to found your next religion X turns earlier.

So, securing the Oracle earlier secures us two religions, and a good position for the next one... if chasing religions is our strategy then we should seriously consider this option.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

The bad news: I forgot to switch the build to a worker

What's the status of our city now? Are we at Size 2 or 3? How long until the Warrior is complete? Have you invested any turns in the Worker yet or zero?

EDIT: The 4th screenshot's URL didn't work out right.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Oh I see, the 4th screenshot shows that we're almost at Size 3 and the Warrior is almost complete.

Okay, I guess it will be back to the "test game drawing board" to see if its better to grow to Size 3 or start the Worker immediately. I'd still strongly push for Worker before completing the Warrior, even if the Warrior would take 1 turn to complete at Size 3, as the sooner that we get that Worker going, the better. Lost 2 Hammers gained by completing the Warrior first will not be enough to compensate 1 more lost turn of Irrigated Corn (+3 Food).

The delay to grow to Size 3 will only be feasible if the extra Food/Hammer from working a 3 (Food + Hammer square) - 2 Food for the extra citizen = 1 extra Food/Hammer can get us the Worker at about the same time as building it immediately without first growing to Size 3.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Your test delays settling our thrid city by >15 turns. The reason I say >15 is because I had to delay the settling of my third city until T75 due to barb archer activity. I had most of my warriors fortified inside my capital, so I assume this delay could have been avoided had I been actually playing the game and using my warriors appropriately.

So, we'll have to see how our game plays out and find out where we would actually like to settle our initial cities and which religious nuts are in our game. This 15 turn delay may make sense... although I typically don't like to do so.

With our slower Irrigation of the Corn, it may now make sense to swap Settler 3 for a Worker anyway. If we figure that settling City 3 can be delayed, then getting a Worker earlier and swapping a Settler in place of one of the later Workers is a reasonable option.

 

[unclethrill]

It's only 18 turns, but I'm ending the turnset here for discussion of what to do about my total screw-up. I might as well just pass it on to the next player, as there's only 2 turns to go anyway.

I'm very sorry to everyone.

Don't stress too much. We all will make mistakes and when I make mine, I want people to be nice to me about it too.

I think the best choice at this point is to save and submit the game so that we can get a new test game created and start testing based on the new information and changed scenario.

Other than that one mistake, it looks like a good TS. I can't wait to take a look at the save.

 

[BLubmuz]

OK, so first religion is in!
Zara... Creative/Organized, but mainly a fast REXer. Surely East, we must block him.

Irgy, don't worry for your switch. OK, it's a mistake, but nothing compared to what happened in our last SG. We has a Renaissance start, where we spent 2 turns scouting before to settle. Those 2 turns of anarchy for switching 3 civics at once were a sort of "free civics switch". the player UP forgot to switch on turn 0. But probably this was not our main mistake.

Almost decided the Silver city, and the Deer surely helps, we need to hook that marble, but probably we need first to box Zara.

About Espionage, we start with 4 points from the Palace. Once we meet the first AI, we can do nothing and the result will be the same.

We can change the weight once we meet the 2nd AI. I don't know if what Dhoom says about the AI assigning his points is correct, but assumed it is, we can just do nothing until we meet the 2nd AI. Only then it's worth discuss how to assign EPs.

Did anyone ran that test with the wheel squeezed to see if it pays for itself?

BUFFY: you have to setup everything from scratch (all the options, the Autolog path and settings, MapFinder paths, anything).
Don't be duped by the 3.19.001 and 3.19.003!
It can even be FfH, it's another Mod.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I don't know about you guys, but Diplo is probably seeming my likely now.

I don't see any good Legendary City locations.

A Legendary City needs to have production and needs to grow so that it is working cottages. So, the majority of you production can't come from Whipping, as if you whip a lot, you won't have the population to work the Cottages.

I only see 1 Hills square in all of the land to the west. I see 1 Cow nearby it, which can count as a Hills square, plus it would have a Pig and 2 Flood Plains squares. Not amazing for a Legendary City by any means.

The only other production-oriented location has a Cow and a Marble. Again, only 2 "Hills-equivalent" squares would make for a poor Legendary City. With the Cow and Marble, one could opt for 3 Clams or one could instead opt for a Rice and 4 Flood Plains (one Flood Plains square would have to be Irrigated for the Rice). You could arbuably increase that amount to 5 Flood Plains if we went non-Coastal (settling on the Desert), but at the cost of having 3 Coast cities without a Lighthouse.

Perhaps the area to the north of our capitol will provide us with a more promising location.


Thinking further about completing the Warrior or not, I'm guessing that most of you are going to opt for completing the Warrior first, to aid with scouting, so I guess we can afford to delay the Worker for 2 more turns, if we can get the Warrior in 2 turns--any longer more than 2 more turns to complete the Warrior, though, and I'm against completing the Warrior now.

 

[BLubmuz]

Proposal/Question.

Since we're Philosophic and after the Oracle we'll have a GPro fairly early, why don't take CoL? Can anyone run a test in this fashion?

Sorry to ask to run tests, i will contribute after next Thursday.

BTW, where is Tata?
Aside that vote i don't see too much from him. Am i blind?

 

[BLubmuz]

Thinking further about completing the Warrior or not, I'm guessing that most of you are going to opt for completing the Warrior first, to aid with scouting, so I guess we can afford to delay the Worker for 2 more turns, if we can get the Warrior in 2 turns--any longer more than 2 more turns to complete the Warrior, though, and I'm against completing the Warrior now.

Since we're at size 2, is possible to switch to max production and have the warrior out in 1 turn? If i'm not wrong, we can starve the city for 1 turn without losing pop, right?

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Almost decided the Silver city, and the Deer surely helps, we need to hook that marble, but probably we need first to box Zara.

Let's face facts. The Corruption cost of that distant Marble city will mean that we won't be able to make it to Christianity from The Oracle. Not to mention the fact that without Sailing or The Wheel, there's no chance of having the Marble connected to our capitol and no chance of a low-production city settled near to it to complete The Oracle on time.


The Marble will be more useful down the road for Wonders (National as well as World) and possibly Cathedrals if we can find a couple of reasonable Legendary City locations.


Also, note that when picking a Legendary City location, if you can find nearby Food that could support a city which overlaps your Legendary City, you can often get 2-3 Cottages worked "for free" by the overlapping city, so that you'll have Matured Towns available for your Legendary City after the Legendary City grows really large (about 15 or larger in population).

We can change the weight once we meet the 2nd AI. I don't know if what Dhoom says about the AI assigning his points is correct, but assumed it is, we can just do nothing until we meet the 2nd AI. Only then it's worth discuss how to assign EPs.

No, the way it works is that you assign the Weight BEFORE you meet a second AI. The interface allows you to do so. If you wait until after meeting another AI, then if that AI meets you or if you don't change the Weights on the turn that you meet them, they'll get Espionage points automatically attributed to them, meaning that we'll have 2 AIs spending Espionage points on us right away, instead of just Zara spending them on us.

Did anyone ran that test with the wheel squeezed to see if it pays for itself?

It won't in the short run. The most that you can get is +1 Commerce per city. With 2 (or even 3) cities, that'll be 2 Commerce per turn (or let's be generous and say 3 per turn). The Wheel costs 139 Flasks. 139 / 3 = around 46 turns. Bye, bye Oracle.