SGOTM 11 - Fifth Element

[Dhoomstriker]

War?

Spoiler :

If you absolutely want to go to war, here's what I suggest that we do:
1. Lightbulb Philosophy
2. Lightbulb part of Education
3. Build more Farms in our new Cities than we build Cottages, such as on the Flood Plains in Rice City

Spoiler :

we should probably do so anyway, even if we don't go to war, to help these Cities grow and to be able to whip more infrastructure. We needed the Cottages in Bedrock to keep our economy going, but soon the focus will shift to needing more Food to be able to convert it into production (from whipping) and Science (from Representation-based Specialists)

4. Whip our Universitities so that the captiol can get Oxford and focus on Scientific output
5. Rearch Liberalism and take Nationalism for Nationhood (drafting = cheap military units)
6. By then, we'll have traded for Construction
7. If we have also received Machinery in trade, then we can draft a few Macemen. If not, no worries
8. Tech to Gunpowder
9. Draft an army of Musketmen, backed by whipped Catapults, possibly with Macemen backup
10. Go to war before any other AI can get Musketmen, aiming to pillage any source of Horses, Ivory, Iron, and Copper, in that order (Knights and War Elephants would be the toughest units to fight with Muskets, so you want to disconnect those Resources first)
11. Be sure to fight a war where you have at least one other AI to help out in the war, so that Triremes (and maybe Caravels) don't sink our army before it lands
12. Take land slowly but surely, preferably with help from another AI (but we can't count on that part if the AIs are not on the same continent as each other)


If we don't want to go to war, we'll save Liberalism for a later tech. Preferably, we'll use it for a tech that comes after Scientific Method, such as Physics, in order to squeeze the last bit of value out of The Parthenon and/or The Great Library.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Latest Test Saved Game

Spoiler :

Okay, I did a little bit of housekeeping on our test saved game.

In particular, I updated the surrounding terrain that we can see, including Ice squares, giving Zara a missing Forest, etc.

I also tried to correctly update Zara's terrain improvements--changing a Cottage to a Farm, etc. Most importantly, I tried to synch up the number of Worker turns on the Road that his Worker was building--in our test game, he was shortly going to complete a Road to his northern City, which may offset our Trade Route income if he doesn't build the same Road in the real game. Now, he may still not build that Road in the real game, but he's at the same "point" of building the Road in both games, so that's the best that I can do.

Finally, I added a couple of more "Choppable" Forest chopping signs to Forests that we can plan to chop sometime in the future, in order to "cull" our Forest regrowth.


After that, I played 1 turn forward, using our first PPP, for your convenience (there are a lot of units that need to be awoken--it's probably best if BLubz wakes them all before moving them, to avoid advancing the turn accidentally partway through moving them. I don't need to put THAT level of detail in the PPP, do I?).


Anyway, until we hear back from BLubz, I won't know exactly what techs to give to Isabella, nor whether Saladin will react the same way that she did and will suddenly be willing to Open Borders and Trade Techs with us.

Nor will I know for sure whether or not Zara will have Writing, but I'm playing it safe and have just stuck with our test game's situation of Zara already knowing Writing.


What I found to be most interesting was when I tried asking Zara what he would give us for our tech. In particular, I got curious and asked him if he "Could spare this gift for a good friend?" without needing to give him anything at all. Well, you can download the saved game and try it out for yourself.


Note that if you do try it out for yourself, you will have to reload the test saved game after every demand attempt, whether successful or unsuccessful, as the AIs remember when you made a demand and won't let your 2nd demand on the same turn be successful, regardless of whether the first demand was successful or unsuccessful.


The downside to using this tech-demanding approach is that, as I alluded to earlier, a Gold per Turn or Resource deal will get cancelled on the next turn (the AIs aren't THAT stupid, allowing you to enforce massive demand-based "mortgages" on them over the course of the game). However, we don't presently need the Health bonus from his Clam, but we do want his techs.


The upside to using the approach, besides the free tech if we are successful in our demand, is that Zara will be unable to declare war on us for a number of turns.


DISCLAIMER: A final downside is that if Zara is not Pleased with us after switching into No State Religion, he won't give us the ability to "ask a buddy for help" and will instead treat the request as a -1 negative Diplo modifier--something that we should absolutely not do.

So, make sure that he's Pleased in attitude with us before attempting this demand in the real game.
However, Zara was Pleased with us back when we only had a +1 Years of Peace Diplo modifer with him:
Zara was Pleased with us early on

Now that we also have a +2 Open Borders Diplo modifier with him,
as well as a +1 Shared Resources Diplo modifier,
in addition to the previous +1 Years of Peace Diplo modifier,
there's virtually no reason why he should be Cautious with us after switching into No State Religion.

 

[BLubmuz]

I can play my single turn in about an hour, unless i see something here.

T149
Religion: Possibly switch Religion to No State Religion
Wake and Move Worker 1 1W GFor (W + W of the GPig and N + N of the Fish) and Chop/Stop
Wake the Confucian Missionary in Wheaties and attempt to spread Confucianism there
Wake and Move Warrior 2 1NW PFor (E + E of the Crab and NW + N + N of the Fish).

T150
stop and report the trade possibilities. no save posted.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I can play my single turn in about an hour, unless i see something here.

As far as I'm concerned, go for it. I'm anxious to see what we can get for the tech that you've been pushing all game for us to research (Alphabet).


AI Behaviour
I'm not sure how many of you have spreadsheets and whatnot on AI behaviour, but I found a message that contains a whole collection of this kind of info. Actually, I kind of recall seeing this collection of info before, so I may already posted this info in our thread, but if not, here is (apparently) a good collection of AI-behaviour-related info:
AI Behaviour

I didn't check out the link myself as I already have downloaded a lot of the info in the past and have edited it to suit my own needs, but for anyone lacking this kind of info, or suspect that their info is out-of-date, it's probably a worthwhile link to check out.

Note that the person who posted the info is also playing on a different SGOTM team, so before you dismiss the info as irrelevant, consider that at least one other team (a good team, at that) is using it.

 

[Irgy]

Yep go for it. I'm looking forward to seeing some tech trades.

 

[BLubmuz]

OK, done.
- Moved worker in forest, chop/stop
- Successfully spreaded Confu in Wheaties
- Mover warrior 1NW, coast.
- revolted to No state religion/paganism

Turn 150
- moved warrior 1NW from the desert hill
- finished chop in Dehli, settler ready next turn
- both workers in Wheaties have chopped/stop, chop complete next turn, settler in 2
- worker in forest W of GPF awaiting orders

Now, the fat part:
Sal will trade OB and wine and he has not yet met Zara: 2 turns and his WB will do
how can we see if he spent some EPs on us? BTW, we also need to reconsider (or confirm) our EP settings

trades: a picture is worth a thousand words:

Spoiler :

saving now, waiting comments.

For your convenience, tech and values:
Fishing: 93
Hunting: 93
AH: 234
IW: 468
Mon: 702
===
Alpha: 702
Math: 585
CoL: 819
Sailing (IIRC) should be some more than AH, say around 300


Outside of my TS, we must reconsider our time schedule: we seriously risk to not complete the game at this pace.

 

[Mitchum]

Very interesting...

We should be able to get IW and Fishing from Zara for Alphabet. Then we can pick up Sailing and AH for Math on the next turn.

Will Sal trade Monarchy for Alphabet? If not, maybe we should trade him Alphabet for AH and Hunting on this turn before he gets it from Zara.

We need to hang on to CoL and Theology as long as possible, right?

EDIT: We should also open borders with Sal right away.

EDIT 2: Mouse over Sal's name in the leader board. We should have 0 EPs against him. The other number will be how many he has against us.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

It's not worth fighting over a video game.

 

[BLubmuz]

I need to better think to the trade possibilities.

Just remember that a player (human or AI) can't trade a tech in the same turn he obtains it in trade.

OB with Sal? sure, once we have our settlers in position. The Crabs city will prevent him to settle our continent without OB and we don't want lose land to him right?

There's also that island North which can be interesting...

 

[BLubmuz]

When you say Paganism, I hope that you did not switch Civics.

We need to stay in Organized Religion if we're going to build a Missionary in Delhi. That was part of the deal. Otherwise, we'll lose Hammers if we're building a building.

EDIT: We'll also lose Hammers in Bedrock if there is no Confucianism there.

Of course i did. I thought it was implicit/automatic in the No state switching.

Agreed for the missionary, not for Bedrock which is Christian. Anyway we can't have the OR hammer bonus not running a State religion... this is basic game knowledge

Better a worker than a missionary.
Mainly if we hope in a Buddhism auto-spread

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Turn 150

Please remember to swap the GHRiv Mine for a Scientist in Delhi.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Of course i did. I thought it was implicit/automatic in the No state switching.

That's fine. We'll make it work. In the future, it would be appreciated if you made any big decisions clear to the team first. Civic swaps definitely count as a big decision.

We may be Spiritual, but Civic swaps are still a very important aspect of the game and I would appreciate it if you discussed any such changes before playing ahead with them.

Better a worker than a missionary.

I wish you had mentioned this point before you played, so that we could have agreed upon it as a team. What's done is done and a Worker it will be.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

We will simply have to adapt our plan. Our off-continent REX must be supported by Galleys. We'll have to focus on chopping and whipping 2 Galleys in Bedrock before we invest another Hammer into the Granary there. Bedrock will be a teeny tiny City as a result, but we'll get our off-continent Cities, which is the main goal.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Agreed for the missionary, not for Bedrock which is Christian. Anyway we can't have the OR hammer bonus not running a State religion... this is basic game knowledge

Honestly, it's like we've been talking to a wall.


^^^ That part, I am not going to edit out, because it really does seem like you haven't been reading the messages in the thread. I hope that you start reading them more dilligently and start asking more questions when you don't understand something.

 

[Mitchum]

I thought it was clear that we wanted to stay in Organized Religion as well. It was mentioned a few times that we need a missionary for Bedrock.

In any event, it appears that BLubmuz mistook No State Relgion to mean No State Religion plus Paganism. It is what it is. We can't go back so let's move on.

Can we discuss tech trades and what to do with our current situation?

 

[Mitchum]

OB with Sal? sure, once we have our settlers in position. The Crabs city will prevent him to settle our continent without OB and we don't want lose land to him right?

He got a fishing boat by us, why not a galley too? I thought we wanted to open borders with him ASAP. Is it really better to wait until our settlers are in position first?

 

[Dhoomstriker]

How to see Espionage Point values in the game's interface

Spoiler :

how can we see if he spent some EPs on us?

Two ways.
1. Open the Espionage Screen (Ctrl + E)
2. Hover your mouse over the Civ's name in the bottom right of your screen. "Ratio with {Leadername}" is what you are looking for. The first number is how many Espionage Points they spent on us. The second number is how many Espionage Points we spent on them.

Espionage

Spoiler :

BTW, we also need to reconsider (or confirm) our EP settings

Our strategy was to focus the Espionage points on one AI until we've at least built several Espionage-oriented buildings (particularly, Courthouses).

Zara, being on the same continent with us, is the most likely AI to use Spies on us until we manage to get a Galley and hopefully settle on the same continent as another AI.

He'd also be the most effective AI to use Espionage points on, due to him being the closest to our capitol.

So, it definitely makes sense to keep all Espionage points on Zara.

Saladin and Zara Meeting each other is not a Good Thing

Spoiler :

2 turns and his WB will do

There is a chance that Saladin will switch some or all of his Espionage Points to Zara when they meet.

We greatly reduce that chance if we assign Espionage Points to Saladin, so we definitely don't want to assign any to Saladin.

It's actually not ideal if they meet, because then one or the other will soon start to ask us to cancel deals with the other. If neither knows the other, then neither can ask us to cancel deals with the other.

Open Borders in the same Trade as a Resource with Saladin

Spoiler :

Sal will trade OB and wine

My recommendation?
Trade Open Borders IN THE SAME TRADE AS a Health Resource of ours for Saladin's Wine. If the trades are made separately, Saladin will be more likely to cancel Open Borders with us, so you want it all to happen in the same trade deal.

PPP3

Spoiler :

Outside of my TS, we must reconsider our time schedule: we seriously risk to not complete the game at this pace.

Please get us your PPP3 ASAP. We're supposed to have a 48 hour period from when you post it to be able to check out tokens and edit it.

The sooner that you post it, the sooner that this 48 hour countdown can begin.

Requesting Techs from Zara is combined with Open Borders--If we do the first one, we must do the second one

Spoiler :

As for the trading situation, I will hand you the answer from the TEST 6 saved game:
1. Confirm for us that Zara is still Pleased with us
2. If Zara is Pleased with us, ask Zara for both Iron Working + Fishing by saying "Could you spare this for a good friend?" Make sure that you ask for both techs at the same time, not in two separate requests.

However, if we do so, you need to trade with Saladin for his Wine now. Otherwise, if Zara and Saladin are about to meet, then Zara will likely give up his Clam for the Wine (Zara definitely does not have Wine--we don't know what Saladin has but knowing murphy's law, he won't have Clam).

We also discussed that getting a chance of Opening Borders with Saladin was the MAIN POINT of switching into No State Religion, so don't go back on us now.

So:
3. Open Borders + Wine with Saladin for a Health Resource
4. Don't forget to switch the GHRiv Mine in Delhi for a Scientist

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Messing with Saladin means delaying the Sitting-down of our Settlers. The Settlers must stand ready but not create Cities until Saladin lands on our continent. If he doesn't land by the time that we have 3 Settlers AND have an improved square for each of those 3 Cities to work, then and only then should we sit those Settlers down to form Cities

Spoiler :

OB with Sal? sure, once we have our settlers in position. The Crabs city will prevent him to settle our continent without OB and we don't want lose land to him right?

The key is for us to get our Rice City and Crab City Settlers in place.

The Three Clam Settler will take a while longer, so we cannot, as you say, afford to have Saladin land a Settler Party at the Clam site.

So, we MUST NOT settle the Rice City and the Crab City UNTIL THE TURN THAT SALADIN LANDS A SETTLER PARTY or until we have all 3 Settlers in place, whichever comes first.

If Saladin lands a Settler Party, it'll be at a location close to him, which, according to UT, is going to be from the west. So, it'll be somewhere in the SW of our continent. If we settle both of Crab and Rice as soon as the Settlers get there, murphy's law says that Saladin will go straight for the Clam spot.

But, if you wait for Saladin to land his Settler Party, then settle on the same turn, he might not even go for the Three Clam site, and if he does, he'll be delayed in doing so by longer than if he'd dropped off his Settler Party directly there. That window of extra time may be the difference between completing our Settler on time.


Now that we won't get the Organized Religion bonus in Bedrock, we'll have to go straight for a Galley after the Settler in Bedrock, without investing any more Hammers into the Granary, so be sure to put that fact into your PPP3.

 

[Mitchum]

1. Confirm for us that Zara is still Pleased with us
2. If Zara is Pleased with us, ask Zara for both Iron Working + Fishing by saying "Could you spare this for a good friend?" Make sure that you ask for both techs at the same time, not in two separate requests.

So this is the only tech dealing we should do this turn? Are you fairly confident that he will give them to us? If so, this is a huge deal, allowing us to get a lot more out of Alphabet, especially with two leaders to trade with.

Also, you said that if he accepts this deal, he will cancel our resource trade next turn. Why? Is it because he gave us his cow for free and won't give us techs for free too?

 

[Irgy]

We should trade Math to Zara one way or another, as the fact that Saladin has it means we don't have to worry so much about him trading it to someone else. Maybe wait until we can get sailing as part of the deal though as suggested.

Saladin is not likely to trade Monarchy for Alphabet, the AIs always want an unfair deal. We have no use for Monarchy anyway though.

I don't actually expect Zara and Saladin to trade. What's their relationship bonus with each other at the moment? Although Alphabet might still get from one to the other via an indirect route. I'd expect us to have at least a turn's leeway.

My recommendation though would be:
* Math to Zara for AH, Fishing and (if possible) Hunting.
Then next turn see what that opens up, and consider whether it's worthwhile trading Alphabet away or holding on to it for now.

Also, I noticed it says Saladin will trade wine. I'd have thought we should start that trade soon so as to get the resource trading bonus with him.