SGOTM 11 - One Short Straw

[Mutineer]

One thin we should remember, why building with food does not apply bureaucracy bonus, whipping does apply it.

That mean instant 2 pop settler whip or 1 pop worker whip in capita.
the only thin we are lucking is happiness, but representation instant + 3 happiness, religion +1 happiness, and temple additional +1 happiness for 35 base hammers.

so worker can go road to cities and we can plank cities every 3 turns or so now.as long as second city keep up producing axes.

I might do rest of experiments, like no Oracle and see.

Oracle is mach more expensive then mids to build. Not only shield, but all that research needed to get a good staff. Investigating rex supported by mids could be an option.
But for now What I like about last option that is has back up plan. If Oracle fail Mids will work, If mids fail... Bureaucracy capital will have a huge pull of gold to play with.

But dates are pretty good for emperor AI.

I already push out second scientist before building mids and create academy in capital.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Personally, I'm game. I'm all for the CS slingshot, especially at around 1500bc. I'm just wondering if we can't do that and get another settler out. Like mdy said, maybe by postponing masry and the mids till just after the Oracle. If we could settle 2fish earlier, then that would be really good. Or is it too much to defend?

On barbs, don't forget that the map you guys are using is a huge landmass. Unless ours goes a lot further to the north, which is highly unlikely since Zara's scouts never vanished for so long, we might not have more than 160/35=4 barbs on the whole landmass at one time.

Btw, Mutineer, I especially like the Oracle not in our capital.

 

[shyuhe]

I'm game for a CS oracle around 1500 BC as well. I don't have direct civ access to test myself, unfortunately, but I like mdy's posted plan. Also, since it goes towards writing before priesthood, we can always re-consider the oracle plan (and shift to a rex) if the wonders start dropping like flies.

edit: If we build the river cottage city and it gets Confucianism, won't that be enough culture to fight for the grass cows? If so, I think it's a city well worth planting as it can work lots of cottages to pay for our expansion bills. It of course slows down the pyramid time though.

 

[mdy]

I'm just wondering if we can't do that and get another settler out. Like mdy said, maybe by postponing masry and the mids till just after the Oracle. If we could settle 2fish earlier, then that would be really good. Or is it too much to defend?

Btw, Mutineer, I especially like the Oracle not in our capital.

In the plan I posted we would have 3 axes, so defending it should not be a problem. If we delayed the mine in the capital we would be able to chop 4 additional forests in city 2 in place of the three in the capital. This would allow us to build the Oracle in city 2 to avoid GP pollution. We could then whip another settler in the capital between T90 and 95 (depending on how the MM works out). This however would delay CS by 1-2 turns. We also would not have fishing/animal husbandry before city 3 was founded, nor would we have a spare worker to start improving it, so it would be of limited use. It would also be more efficient to whip after CS.


I don't think we can determine the optimal way of getting CS at the moment because of the two unexplored tiles. If there is a food source there it would change everything. If we played until it became possible to whip the settler for 2 pop on T42 it could help clarify matters.

I suggest:

We could send the warrior North of Delhi to reveal those tiles and then send it to explore the north. The next warrior to be built can fogbust the stone site, whist the warrior to the East goes to explore the area to the South.

The worker chops the forest 1SW of it's current location next turn and then goes to the silver to mine it.

I think we can work the silver at size 4 as it won't delay the settler and the commerce boost would be useful (we are research limited not production limited for the slingshot.)

 

[LowtherCastle]

There's surely no point in whipping a third settler just a few turns before Bureau, if we get that far. I was thinking of something much earlier, if possible. That's all.

 

[shyuhe]

If we are research limited, isn't it better to slow build the first settler so that we can continue working the silver the entire time? If we're not going to settle the river to the east, there's no hurry in getting the settler out since we're not going to lose the stone/copper site.

 

[Mutineer]

I went with Idea to build second library and whip first one in capital.

Result is the same and time is same.


It is probably better as it saves a lot of forests in capital, make betetr use of granary slavery.

Our dates are same, as I listed not time build listed in events, but turn when we actually can use it.


I might do experiment with researching masonry after slingshot.

 

[Mutineer]

Ok, I went with masonry after COl(sivil service shot).
Nothing different from previous, except capital was building axes instead of putting hammers into Mids.

Oracle Build 1625BC. We have 2 axes at that time.

Mids are later 1300BC, but expansion is already on the way.

For me this is probably the best path, as it will guaranty Civil service.
1625 BC Oracle time is good even on immortal. Offcouse there is always chance...

I am still in favor of my city placement. It does not delay working cooper at all, but completely block west from Zara

 

[mushroomshirt]

A 1525B.C CS slingshot could be done like this:

Warriors: 1 fog bust second city site, 1 explores to North, 1 Garrisons the capital, and scouts to S when this can be done without costing us happiness in the capital.

T37: move worker 1S and chop for 1 turn.

T38: move worker to silver and start building mine next turn. Grow size 4, start working silver, start settler.

....

....

T99, 1525B.C.: Finish COL, Build Oracle get CS.

mdy - thank you very much for this write up. This helped me quite a bit. I played around a bit with a test save (attached).

I used mutineer's city placement 1SE of stone. I was able to bring in writing (after wheel, pottery) to turn 69 from 71 in mdy's write-up by having Delhi work silver mine - of course this comes at the expense of population in the capital, we would need to chop for libraries instead of pop rushing.

1SE of stone means we will have warriors to defend for a while (no axemen), but we should have quite a few and with good defensive positions should be able to hold off barb archers (if there are any in significant numbers).

I have not taken it all the way yet, but CS sling does seem doable. thought I would take a break to share the test save. Didn't see another post of one.

 

[mdy]

It does not delay working cooper at all

What date do you start working the copper.

If we are research limited, isn't it better to slow build the first settler so that we can continue working the silver the entire time?

The delay to the second city would actually cost us more research in the long run.

I'm not convinced either of the posted plans are the best. The biggest difference between mine and Mutineers is that he gets his extra research from cottages instead of a second library, whilst this does get us to CS quicker it delays our Academy and the need to run scientists for longer in the capital slows down our rex. There are some spare worker turn in the 2 library plan which are not needed for the slingshot, if we used them to build a cottage instead of prechopping we might be able to do even better. Also building a monument first in city 2 would reduce the delay in getting copper online if we settled 2N of it.

 

[Mutineer]

What date do you start working the copper.



The delay to the second city would actually cost us more research in the long run.

I'm not convinced either of the posted plans are the best. The biggest difference between mine and Mutineers is that he gets his extra research from cottages instead of a second library, whilst this does get us to CS quicker it delays our Academy and the need to run scientists for longer in the capital slows down our rex. There are some spare worker turn in the 2 library plan which are not needed for the slingshot, if we used them to build a cottage instead of prechopping we might be able to do even better. Also building a monument first in city 2 would reduce the delay in getting copper online if we settled 2N of it.

First, exec date I am starting to work cooper does not matter. I start work it on second turn after capital borders expand. It is way before there any risk of barbarians. I could check when it happened, but I do not see how it is of any importance, it is early enough.

Second check
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9158067&postcount=288
post. This is combination of cottages and second library.

Third I do not see how academy in capital that matter at that moment, that why I change my mine about running Col straight away.

We are going to max rex and our capital will be mass producing hammers for a time and our research rate dip down for a time. So, delay in academy does not matter that mach. Anyway, we want Oracle in second city and with your position it would be probably impossible to build that early, 1625BC Not enough forest.

WE actually do not want to push second GP from second city, because it would be polluted by Oracle. That would not be matter that mach later in the game, but I would rather have GS or GE as second .
Building monument is waster of critical hammers and does not help.

I am pretty sure about my current path, I played with a bunch of different ideas to get there.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Mutineer, questions on some details:
1. Do you go to 0% research immediately when you get to wtg and collect enough gold to get through to CoL later at 100%? (to maximize the benefit of the library)
2. Are you still building 3 workers in yout 1625bc Oracle? Edit: no, 2 wkrs
3. Do you see any way to squeeze out another settler before 2000bc and keep the 1625 Oracle?

 

[LowtherCastle]

Mutineer, what is the earliest date you have using mushroom's test save that already has Zara on it? I'd like to update it so we don't meet the other AIs and see only 5 barbs.

 

[Mutineer]

OK, here is original save I started from, it is based on bbp, modified from info we have now about stone location (Only stone city fat cross, I am to lazy to modify rest).

I getting 2 turn collecting money.

Turn 1 City size 5, writing researched.
turn 2 city size 6, unhappy from previous whip, whip library
turn 3 library build, switch research back on.

Additional 40 gold come from fail stonehenge. (some hammers go there before axes could be build). I believe we could reasonably rely on that.

if that does not happen, research slowed by 1 turn. Date of stonehenge was different from try to try.. current result date is about average. if we very lucky could be turn faster.

there no other AI around, but a lots of land mach more then we will have to deal with.

there are no way to squeeze an other settler.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Here's the 4000bc version with about 175 unowned tiles for 5 barbs. This will drop to 4 probably when we settle, so maybe there'll never be more than four. Later on, I'll try to get it to 3100bc with the correct MM.

Edit: Map updated on 3100bc save.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Zara's demographics 3100bc

pop3
food +5fpt
prod 2hpt
builds: archer-wb(partial)-worker-wb(~31h)
techs: fishing-myst-(?Sailing-or-AH?)-TW
edit: techs: fishing-agri-AH-TW is what it looks like

power:

pop2 +1
archer +3
AH, I think +2
TW +2​

score:

fishing +6
pop2 +6
myst +6
pop3+5 tiles +16
5 tiles +10
AH, I think +6
TW +6
all scores approximate
​

Riddles:
1. Does anyone know why our GNP jumped +2 ~3650bc?
2. Did Zara research sailing or AH? EDIT: AH, I think.

Thoughts:
1. Are we lucky?
a. Zara will probably research pottery next and spam cottages. Good or bad? In one test, he did BW early.
b. In various tests I ran, he usually jacked up his production and got wb(s) out very fast, then built the worker, just like a human would. With us, he screwed that up and played like a dumb AI. Maybe he only has one seafood. That plus cottages would slow down his settler build somewhat. With fish nets, maybe completed ~T52 if he rushes his wb now.
c. In several tests, I saw bears galore. Lost the warrior, got him all beaten up, etc.
2. If Zara reearched Sailing, does that affect whether we want to grab the river area? Will blocking him encourage him to build TGL?

 

[mdy]

We are going to max rex and our capital will be mass producing hammers for a time and our research rate dip down for a time. So, delay in academy does not matter that mach. Anyway, we want Oracle in second city and with your position it would be probably impossible to build that early, 1625BC Not enough forest.

To chop the Oracle we only need 4 forests, we can do that in either city location, even once previous chops have been taken into account. Could you post an outline of how you got that 1625B.C. date, I have been unable to get it before 1525B.C. in either location?

Does anyone know why our GNP jumped +2 ~3650bc?

That's odd, it does not appear to correspond to anything and it seems to occur in the test game as well. We also have an equally mysterious drop of -2 in GNP at 3125B.C. as well.

If Zara reearched Sailing, does that affect whether we want to grab the river area? Will blocking him encourage him to build TGL?

This would probably be a good thing if it does happen. We aren't going to build TGL, better it is built by an AI we can easily make friends with, and who will be relatively backwards and weak due to our REX, than a tech monster like Mansa or a thug like Monteuma.

 

[Silu]

Researching a tech for which we have a prerequisite (like Mining for BW) gives +20% beakers, so that's 2 GNP with our 10 and 100% slider. The Wheel does not have any prerequisites so no +20% there.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Researching a tech for which we have a prerequisite (like Mining for BW) gives +20% beakers, so that's 2 GNP with our 10 and 100% slider. The Wheel does not have any prerequisites so no +20% there.

Thanks. As I read our GNP, we started at 16. Does that mean it also counts the free beaker we get each turn?

Next riddle.

                   GNP Cult Spy Diff Comm FreeB  20%  40%  TotBeak MysteryGNP
Zara's GNP starts  19   4    4   11   10    1     -           11       -
pop2, works fp     20   4    4   12   11    1     -           12       -
starts AH/Sail     24   4    4   [COLOR="red"]16[/COLOR]   11    1     2    [COLOR="Blue"]4[/COLOR]      [COLOR="red"]14      +2[/COLOR] 
pop3, works fp     26   4    4   [COLOR="red"]18[/COLOR]   12    1     2    [COLOR="blue"]5[/COLOR]      [COLOR="red"]15      +3[/COLOR]
starts TW -- 15    21   4    4   13   12    1     -           13       -

He hasn't built a Stele as far as I can tell. Where does the mystery GNP come from?

EDIT: Okay, I think the extra GNP are 40% bonus beakers. That means he either went fishing-myst-masonry or fishing-agri-AH. Okay, but Masonry does not add +2 to the power so that's it: Fishing-agri-AH, if I didn't miss anything. That's weird. Why would Zara research agri-AH?

EDIT2: Silu, do you have the formula for how much techs cost the AIs?

 

[Silu]

Thanks. As I read our GNP, we started at 16. Does that mean it also counts the free beaker we get each turn?

Yes, it counts the "you have any cities" beaker

Next riddle.

                   GNP Cult Spy Diff Comm FreeB  20%  TotBeak MysteryGNP
Zara's GNP starts  19   4    4   11   10    1     -      11       -
pop2, works fp     20   4    4   12   11    1     -      12       -
starts AH/Sail     24   4    4   [COLOR="red"]16[/COLOR]   11    1     2      [COLOR="red"]14      +2[/COLOR] 
pop3, works fp     26   4    4   [COLOR="red"]18[/COLOR]   12    1     2      [COLOR="red"]15      +3[/COLOR]
starts TW -- 15    21   4    4   13   12    1     -      13       -

He hasn't built a Stele as far as I can tell. Where does the mystery GNP come from?

EDIT: Okay, I think the extra GNP are 40% bonus beakers. That means he either went fishing-myst-masonry or fishing-agri-AH. Okay, but Masonry does not add +2 to the power so that's it: Fishing-agri-AH, if I didn't miss anything. That's weird. Why would Zara research agri-AH?

Do not question the mysterious ways of the AI!

EDIT2: Silu, do you have the formula for how much techs cost the AIs?

Sure. It's the list price - it does not change with difficulty level. To get the precise beaker cost, multiply with the WorldSize and Speed factors, 1.3 for Standard and 1.0 for Normal