SGOTM 11 - One Short Straw

[LowtherCastle]

AIs don't get a tech bonus on emporer, like they get prod bonus, etc.?

 

[shyuhe]

I could have sworn the AI get a modest tech bonus on emperor but I'd have to look at the XML to be sure.

 

[mdy]

The AI gets at 20% bonus on emperor.

 

[Silu]

Well, depends on how you define "tech bonus". They always have the same beaker prices (equal to what the human has at Noble). Their tech edge comes from smaller growth threshold, reduced unit and civic upkeep, reduced inflation, reduced building prices, reduced unit prices, free starting techs and units... Along with a big bunch of stuff that's fixed at "Noble" level, like city maintenance. But no straight-up "tech bonus" in the form of +beakers% or reduced tech costs.

The AI gets at 20% bonus on emperor.

No, the human has 1.2x tech costs. The AI always has the same costs (1.0x). I guess it's partly semantics as in which way you look at it.

 

[LowtherCastle]

So if TW costs us 139b, what's it cost Zara?

 

[Silu]

For in-game prices in this game you can simply divide them with the only differing factor, which is the difficulty level modifier: 1.2 as noted. So 139/1.2 ~ 115.

If you want to get more accurate prices by avoiding rounding errors, it's better to go from the ground up though. LIST_PRICE * 1.5 (Epic) * 1.3 (Standard) = 117. The list prices you can find for example here or in the Civ main menu Civilopedia (ingame Civilopedia has the game-specific modifiers, at least the Sevopedia does). Say if you want "just" and not "about" (+-3 beakers) prices and I'll look into that, there are a number of ways in which rounding can muck things up

 

[LowtherCastle]

So are you saying that the 20% factor is actually tacked onto ours? (Which is why you said "It's the list price - it does not change with difficulty level. To get the precise beaker cost, multiply with the WorldSize and Speed factors, 1.3 for Standard and 1.0 for Normal "?)

 

[Silu]

So are you saying that the 20% factor is actually tacked onto ours? (Which is why you said "It's the list price - it does not change with difficulty level. To get the precise beaker cost, multiply with the WorldSize and Speed factors, 1.3 for Standard and 1.0 for Normal "?)

I'm not sure I understood the question

Our tech beaker costs: LIST_PRICE * WORLD_FACTOR * SPEED_FACTOR * DIFFICULTY_FACTOR = LIST_PRICE * 1.3 * 1.5 * 1.2

AI tech beaker costs: LIST_PRICE * WORLD_FACTOR * SPEED_FACTOR = LIST_PRICE * 1.3 * 1.5 (as they have no difficulty factor)

Did that help?

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

Slightly off topic (willl have a serious look at the thread tmr), but I am sure some will have fun (particularly LC) watching this pic:
Here is one of this game-map's designer (Erkon) going out of one of Grenoble's fountain (he was on a business trip in my city and we spent the evening with some of his colleagues... drinking)

Your welcome LC!

Ras

 

[Silu]

Have I played too much Civ if to me it looks like he's climbing out of the Hanging Gardens?

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

Have I played too much Civ if to me it looks like he's climbing out of the Hanging Gardens?

I would say yes... (PS: I tryed to make him drink to have some hints about the map, but no such chance )

 

[mushroomshirt]

Ras - great picture!

LC thanks for the test save. Playing around I noticed a few things.

1) we can switch to working silver now and still pop to size 4 and build warrior in 2 turns
2) after pop to size 4 we can work grass river tile for extra commerce and still whip settler on turn 43
3) after settler whip we can work silver mine and 1 corn and get wheel on turn 45 - worker could be ready to road corn that same turn.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Thanks Ras.

I think you need to have a chat with jesusin. When I want to see a picture of a fountain, I'm looking for something a bit more like this:

The closest Erkon comes to this is maybe his thighs...



Speaking of the Grenoble fountain, last time I was there, I happened to capture of photo that looked remarkably like you and Dostoyevsky's great-grandson.

Spoiler :

 

[Mutineer]

OK, I was thinking I show my micro in one previous post. I will repeatr it from memory.

Do not work silver, work forests. additional little commerce does not matter that mach right now.
cancel chop, next turn move worker SW and chop for turn to use worker turns.
Next turn move on silver and start mining.

Finish warrior start settler.
DO NOT whip settler. Finish it normally. I want to have road ready and I do not have time to road if settler whip.

switch to work silver when mine ready.
Next turn move worker NW and chop for a turn.
Preposition warrior on forest we will road in order to protect worker settler.
some where there well-pottery.

Next turn just move worker, next turn start roading corn.

Settler finished, settler-worker. Move worker to road protected forest. start Roading forest. Put city, next turn road finished.

Second city - warrior.
Move worker to forest north of capital which already was chopped for a turn and start chop.
Manipulate research % in order to finish pottery as fast as posible.
Give second city corn for if necessary. So we can whip worker for 1 population with full overflow (worker almost build),ON turn before we discover pottery. so all overflow go to granary. Give second corn back, so on whip turn all food excess going to hammers overflow.

Time of pottery change by one turn from experiment to experiment, I believe it depends on discount we getting from AI knows tech we researching.

As result we finish getting chop on whip turn or next turn, finishing granary in 1 or 2 turns. Next warrior.
Capital work 2 corns + silver .

SEcond city warrior -granary.

New worker start to cottage South of capital. Old worker move to forest SW and chop for a turn, next turn help finish cottage. Then booth worker repeat procedure moving to cottage North of city tie, making forest pre chopped. Capital grow with max speed working 2 corn+ silver then cottage. warrior finished before capital grow to size 5, providing military police.

Next production is up to player, could be warrior if we need more warriors, like scouting warrior die or we need one for some other purpose. If Not, put hammers into stonehenge.

At size 5 we give manipulating turn we give corn to second city so capital is one turn to grow to size 6 when writing discovered.
when writing discovered, we start library, shot down research. Next turn capital grow to size 6, whip library, work 2 corns + silver. Next turn resume research.
Re-grow capital as fast as possible working cottages in addition to 2 corn + silver to size 5 then hire 2 scientists. work 1 corn + cottage + silver.

Coincide by fire scientist and giving city second corn grow to turn when unhappiness disappear,
Capital micro finished for a time, it is stable working 1 corn, silver, 2 cottages+ 2 scientists.

Capital spend production for warriors or stonehenge before cooper connected, after it produces axes (will have enough production for 2 axes) before slingshot finished.

Second city.
work plain forest or corn depends what is giving to it.
Production form start is warrior-granary. workers to chop one forest into granary(Edited due to mistake from memory) chop go to granary. When city grow to size 2 and chop go in and writing discovered whip it for 1 pop, next library.
I do not remember exec, but watch time when capital border expand, pre-road cooper tie, l. Mine cooper when border expand and finish chop. Use excess worker turn to mine grass hill chop to library to library I think library need 2 chops total.
second city work corn(when not taken by capital), copper tie when it become avalible, plain forest or mined grassland hill when it become avalible.

finish library naturally with help of chops (coincide with second city grow to size 4), hire 2 scientist, working corn and cooper.
Production to oracle.

Manipulate workers turn to pre-chop forest to trow into oracle, so all chops going after GS discover math(there is matter of border expand, so some calculation requed. Exec time of col finish could warry, so it is up to moment thin. Use excess worker turn to pre-chop more forest in capital. Time last chop to go so Oracle build on turn col discovered.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Zara is cheating.

Turn#   bpt TotBeak TechDone TechCost ScoreGraph PowerGraph
 0-6    11    77
   7                  Fish      78       +6 
 7-9    11    33
10-15   12    72
   16                 Agri     117       +6
16-20   16    80
21-25   18    90
   26                 AH       195       +6         +2
26-34   13   117   
   35                 TW       117       +6         +4
             ---               ---
Totals       469               507

What am I missing here?

Edit: And to cap it off, notice that on T35, Zara's GNP/research was back up at the 40% research level, evidently meaning that he's now reseraching Masonry.

 

[Mutineer]

ok, folk, I am ready to play. Are you agree with my plan?

 

[LowtherCastle]

ok, folk, I am ready to play. Are you agree with my plan?

I assume that we have decided we're going for a diplomatic victory, then, since we're abandoning the river location. That means the most critical location for our third city is the 2-fish and that's about where the barbs will settle. It will set us way back if we have to capture three barb archers fortified in a city. I think it's imprtant we put a warrior down there to reserve that spot for us. (before barb cities start spawning of course)

Other than that, I have nothing else to comment on for your plan, Mutineer. Good luck!

 

[Silu]

LC: Hmm... Only thing I can think of, the game is setup so that ZY's turn is before us, essentially making him one turn "ahead" for when we can observe it. So he actually put 8 turns of research into Fishing and has been riding on the overflow since.

BTW, how do you know his bpt for each turn? Jedi magic?

Mutineer: plan sounds great to me

 

[LowtherCastle]

LC: Hmm... Only thing I can think of, the game is setup so that ZY's turn is before us, essentially making him one turn "ahead" for when we can observe it. So he actually put 8 turns of research into Fishing and has been riding on the overflow since.

BTW, how do you know his bpt for each turn? Jedi magic?

I'm basing everything on the graphs. I actually thought of the graphs being off by a turn, but that still doesn't make up for that much beakers on the last turn. Oh well...I guess it doesn't matter much if we're not going to try to contain him.

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

I am OK as well with the plan Mut
@LC: that's actually the same fountain nvm