SGOTM 11 - One Short Straw

[mystyfly]

I agree with most of mut's plan except that missionary thing, I agree with silu that it is useless to spread it to issy, spreading it to an AI that will convert to said religion afterwards has a MUCH greater impact.

Trowing overflow into settler is bad, as it prevent 3 pop settler whip. All 3 pop settlers whips should go into production. Until we improve capital to we can grow it and make her productive naturally we better to continue 3 pop whips.

we want HG health, engineers points and population to use in all our cities, which would be a lot when we build it.

I'm not sure I like this either. I'd probably have the overflow in the settler or a worker as we want our capital to grow I assume so we don't want to 3pop whip anyway. IMO we need another settler as we need 1 for ivory 1 for horsefish and 1 for one of clams/rice. With rep we have no -issues anyway so 2popwhips are not as bad. And I really doubt we'll have any health issues with all the resources we have available.
I generally don't like HG so much as it requires the aqueduct first which isn't doublespeed but I guess we'll build it anyway.

Oh and I agree with bbp, probably best to play a miniset to see what izzy does... That lurking thing really didn't work, LTC You're more than welcome to play a set or three

 

[LowtherCastle]

If I'm not mistaken, Toku drew an iPeaceWeightRand = 2, and Justy drew = 0, which explains why they were able to sign OBs before they had the negmod for close borders.

Question for you, Silu: What attitude does Toku have to fall to, to decide to close borders with Justy?

 

[mdy]

Do we know if Justy and Toku came from the west or the north?

I think that Japan's workboat came from the west. Either way I think we need to scout in both directions ASAP.

I think we have got to the point where whipping the capital would be counter productive. If we let it grow it could become a very powerfull city quickly. Not doing so severely reduces the benefits of the CS sling/very early pyramids. The next settler can be built by chopping the 2 forests, and once we have built the 2 grass mines we will be able to build a settler in the capital every 7 turns - faster than the time taken to regrow from the whip.

We seem to have a shortage of workers, so it may be worthwhile to put the overflow into another worker.

 

[Silu]

AFAIK BTS AIs do not cancel OB agreements except if bribed (by the human) or if war breaks out.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I think that Japan's workboat came from the west. Either way I think we need to scout in both directions ASAP.

I checked our warrior/axe busters to the NW and if the axe saw TOku first, he came from the west, if the warrior did, he came from the north. I'd really, really like to know this, if you can please check your saves/autosaves.

We know we have mysteryAI-Toku-Justy on the same landmass and Toku has settled 7 cities, so it's quite likely our scouting wb will be blocked at Toku till we have Alpha and can trade for +4 and Pleased to get OBs. Now, if they're to the west, that would mean that that scouting wb only needs to arrive at Toku when we get Alpha, whenever that will be. We already have a scout for the north.

 

[babybluepants]

We know we have mysteryAI-Toku-Justy on the same landmass and Toku has settled 7 cities, so it's quite likely our scouting wb will be blocked at Toku till we have Alpha and can trade for +4 and Pleased to get OBs. Now, if they're to the west, that would mean that that scouting wb only needs to arrive at Toku when we get Alpha, whenever that will be. We already have a scout for the north.

Good point, but for all we know there could be another resource we need before we even get to Toku.

I'd really prefer easing the whip in the capital, as well. We have yet to really put early bureau to use here. It should start working those cottages now.

Using the missionary as a scout might be an useful idea but spreading Confu there is just a huge waste at this point. We can effortlessly spread Confu there at any point later on without sacrificing our now meager resources

I don't think we need to use our other current Settler for the Horsie Fish, and can use it on the better Rice city. It will take a minimum of 6 turns for Zara's Settler to run into a place it can settle, so we probably get the next one out in time. If he doesn't build one during the next 11 turns we are safe since Bombay's borders will pop before his Settler reaches its destination.

Agree.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Draft turnset plan

Basic ideas:
1. Revolt to Rep + Edit: out of Conf and sign OBs with Izzy
2. explore Izzy's southern coast, northern landmass, and west
3. Delhi: aque(part)-settler-aque(part)-settler(3pop?)-aque-...HG; two wkrs chop settler, then one goes to Horse while the other makes a cottage and a mine
4. Bombay: worker-worker
5. Oasis: galley-wb-granary, wkr: chop-chop-farm
6. Two Fish: granary(1pop)-wb-lh(2pop)-library
7. Rice: settle-wb-wb-granary, wkr: chop-farm(part)-chop
8. Horse: wb-granary wkr: chop-pasture-mine
9. Marble: granary, wkr: pasture-chop
10. Ivory: wkr (nets wb from Oasis)

Also:
* replace the ConfMiss with a buster
* swap axe with warrior so axe can go explore northern landmass if deserted
* bust western coastal tiles
* trade corn for cows with Justy


* will an AI to discover Alpha
* autospread Confucianism to 10-12 cities
* discover gold in Delhi mine
* pop goody hut that isn't supposed to be there but is anyway and get Astro w/o prereqs

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I haven't worked out all the details, but testing shows that poprushing the granary in Two Fish immediately is the best option. The Two Fish wb is for nets. The westward explorer comes from Rice, since you guys think it's that urgent. Personally, I'd rather settle Marble and chop the westward explorer in Horse, leaving Rice to settle later, but that's not how I constructed the plan.

 

[mystyfly]

1. Revolt to Rep + Conf and sign OBs with Izzy

???

3. Delhi: aque(part)-settler-aque(part)-settler(3pop?)-aque-...HG; two wkrs chop settler, then one goes to Horse while the other makes a cottage and a mine

That's the "overflow towards HG" plan, are we agreed on that, worker was another popular option too. I'm definitely against 3popwhipping the settler, if we go aque now we should put all efforts in HG and get it done ASAP, thus whipping, if anything, the aqueduct.

* trade corn for cows with Justy

IIRC we'll have cows in a few turns but thats ok for the +ves, just might cancel it though as we'll have cows ourselves... -> gift corn?

* autospread Confucianism to 10-12 cities
* discover gold in Delhi mine

Accepted


I don't think I have to say that you should stop if an AI gets alpha, we meet the last AI or izzy settles the ivory (I doubt she will though).

Remember to cancel the active settler's go-to, do this first else the settler might move thus lowering our chances for ivory city!

Looking good LC

 

[Silu]

I think the Ivory island showed how urgent exploration is. Now we're in fear of Bella settling it, when earlier exploration (though it really wasn't viable) would have shown it earlier and possibly got us there faster. So yeah I like the Rice and early west exploration.

Should note that we can't OB with Bella directly after adopting NSR, it takes a turn for the WE to go away. And the WB should check if Bella is settling the Ivory anyway. Otherwise plan looks peachy. Especially the last four asterisks.

 

[mdy]

Delhi: aque(part)-settler-aque(part)-settler(3pop?)-aque-...HG; two wkrs chop settler, then one goes to Horse while the other makes a cottage and a mine

If we are going for the H.G. we might want both mines before any more cottages, even with 3 mines it will take 26 turns to build the aquaduct +H.G. If Zara is not likely to found the horses site there should be no need for another settler whip unless our scouts discover another site like the elephant island.

Are we planning to switch back to caste system at any point for border pops? Might it be more efficient to start running scientists in 2 fish and slow build the lighthouse, rather than using the whip?

 

[babybluepants]

I think the Ivory island showed how urgent exploration is. Now we're in fear of Bella settling it, when earlier exploration (though it really wasn't viable) would have shown it earlier and possibly got us there faster.

Would have been very possible with an early focus on REX and exploration, instead of chasing wonders. We made a conscious choice. I guess we'll see how it plays out...

Are we planning to switch back to caste system at any point for border pops?

5t of Caste would be great. Can we work out a whip schedule that would let us do it?

LC, how far along do you propose to play? Have you done any test play? Could we see a save?

I'd prefer to not 3pop whip a settler in Delhi, unless we find fur on an island next to Toku or something.

PS: Xteam's culture graph spiked finally. My thinking is Pyramids + COL. Alternatively, there's also a chance they got the CS sling partway through the set, though, and probably without spending a bulb.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Thanks for the feedback, guys. My testing so far was just to clarify the best poprush sequence in Two Fish. Overall testing I saved till we got a basic of idea of the plan, because there are so many options. Especially in terms of the logistics of where our workers are, where the galley will be, etc. For example, suppose we rush out the western explorer and realize we want to settle that island. How soon will the galley get there? Not very soon, I don't think, and I doubt we want to rush out a western galley.

Another logistics issue that Mutineer mentioned is having Delhi tiles improved if we're going to grow it. We definitely need to start working as many cottages there as soon as possible. There's a fine balance there.

Postponing Rice and chopping the western explorer in Horse would allow us to REX Two Fish and Marble and not 3pop Delhi. If that western wb still reveals info early enough for our potentially approaching galley, then that might be the best overall option, giving us exploration, REX, research, and city development.

Let's not forget that maintenance costs are weighted toward huge cities, so we need granaries and many worked tiles asap to counterbalance our REX.

In any case, I plan to test whatever option we like the best.

 

[Silu]

For example, suppose we rush out the western explorer and realize we want to settle that island. How soon will the galley get there? Not very soon, I don't think, and I doubt we want to rush out a western galley.

This, I think, will be pretty bipolar. Either there is a resource which is in danger of being settled by, say, Toku, and obviously then we will rush another Galley in that direction, no effort spared. If it's not, then it will almost certainly not be urgent at all, so we can wait for the Galley to double back.

Another logistics issue that Mutineer mentioned is having Delhi tiles improved if we're going to grow it. We definitely need to start working as many cottages there as soon as possible. There's a fine balance there.

Postponing Rice and chopping the western explorer in Horse would allow us to REX Two Fish and Marble and not 3pop Delhi. If that western wb still reveals info early enough for our potentially approaching galley, then that might be the best overall option, giving us exploration, REX, research, and city development.

Let's not forget that maintenance costs are weighted toward huge cities, so we need granaries and many worked tiles asap to counterbalance our REX.

In any case, I plan to test whatever option we like the best.

Hmm. How does the choice between Horse/Rice affect 3popping Delhi?

 

[LowtherCastle]

Hmm. How does the choice between Horse/Rice affect 3popping Delhi?

If we delay Rice, we can settle Marble or Horse immediately and the other with the chopped settler, freeing us to grow Delhi and then settle Rice. If we settle Rice now, in my mind we're forced to immediately build 2 more settlers for Horse and Marble. Delaying Rice allows us to grow Delhi which allows us to work those cottages full time.

I plan to chop one settler in Delhi, so the choice is between 3popping from p6>p3 or growing first and then 3popping from p8>p5 or something like that.

---------------

Ideally, at pop14, Delhi would work
2 corn
1 silver
1 mine (gives us 8hpt*1.5=12hpt or *2.5=20hpt)
9 cottages
1 engineer with forge

After pop14, Delhi can work other stuff. But our goal is to achieve pop14 with 13 cottages and an engineer asap.

---------------

All this REX is fine within limits. In SG9, MW overexpanded and lost because of it. CRC optimized its expansion and finished far faster. Frankly, I'm not even sure how important the Ivory is, if we have to settle on the desert tile, but okay. I highly doubt anything at this point is worth another galley instead of building more granaries, workers, and growing our existing cities.

 

[Silu]

Is Marble really so good we need to bust our balls settling it? It requires a significant work boat investment, while we're still sending all our WBs to explore, whereas Rice has a better pre-LH food tile plus enough FPs to grow nicely. Couldn't we postpone Marble until we have the WBs ready to take care of it?

And as for the worth of another Galley in the worst case scenario... We are limited to DoWing 2 AIs. If we allow AIs to settle the needed resources, we risk making the game unwinnable (they trade them away, we meet our DoW quota, AIs manage to tech an obsoleting tech, etc).

 

[mdy]

Another alternative is that we don't found the horse/incense city for a long time, and hope our borders expand before Zara settles it.

I would also be reluctant to build another galley for a while, but if there is another site like the Elephant island to the east, (and given how this map has been balanced then I suspect there is) then that would be worth using the whip, even at the expense of the development of the two fish city and the capital.

The marble city is another solid GP farm, and if we want 3GS to bulb philosophy/education then we will probably need to generate one here, so we should get it up and running fairly quickly.

We may only want to work one grass mine when the capital is at size 14, but I think we should work both grass mines for a while as there is a lot we will need to build there if we are going for the Hanging Gardens (aquaduct, H.G, market, forge, temple, monastry)

 

[LowtherCastle]

Marble starts slow but becomes great. Slow growth is precisely why Marble needs to start sooner than later, in my view. It needs lots of pop + granary + lh and is not well-suited to poprushing at low population.

 

[mystyfly]

Slow growth that turns into rapid growth with some WB support from other cities. IMO it doesn't make much of a difference to how far the city is developed in 50 turns if we settle it now or in 20 turns. If we settle it now it has (next to) no support, if we settle it later it will have much more support and we have another well-developed city. It's not like we're running out of great sites yet, is it

 

[Silu]

Well, I don't think it helps much to settle it before we have a workboat to instantly enable at least a single Clam. Chopping a WB there is a no-no as those should go towards stuff that HAS to be done there, such as a Granary.

 

[mystyfly]

Yeah, exactly. I thought actually that LC himself said that lowprod science cities should use their resources (forests, whips) to get their basic infra done and supply other cities with units... this is just one more step in that direction.

Something else: Does anyone know why team unpronouncable played so many turns in such short amount of time? Did they turn on autopilot or did someone decide to run away with the save...?