SGOTM 11 - One Short Straw

[babybluepants]

I agree with all of this 100%, couldn't have said it better myself There's a lot of the MMM already done thus far, and with GREAT results, so it feels kinda dumb to start "just" playing because some players in the rotation (like me) don't want to bother doing the legwork. But since it felt there are enough people willing (wanting) to do that, I thought it could work to not "drop out" but just act as an advisor of sorts

That sounds fine to me. Even if you do nothing but field the occasional request for technical consult, that's invaluable. And, knowing you, I'm sure you'll still participate much more than that. Honestly, I couldn't possibly care less who plays the turns (I have yet to play a single one in fact). We have plenty of capable players for the actual execution, and that's only a small part of this game. It's not as if some small bit of suboptimal micro or a misclick will even matter in the big picture.

I don't see why we would change anything in the way we're working. The results are clearly great so far, and I thought we originally recruited Silu, mysty and Mut exactly so as to induce a more diverse discussion and, ultimately, get a better result. If anything, I think the overly complicated scenario is largely to blame for the excess of this thread. On top of the typical complexity of the game, we have a million what-ifs to deal with.

I'll have a look at the save and comment on that later tonight...

 

[babybluepants]

Nice work, shyuhe!

I guess Toku's after Saladin more or less for sure?

Buddhism spread is great. I also think we may want that eventually, when we can afford the manual spread. Depends on the location of remaining 2 resources, IMHO.

What's the consensus on the next settler? Gold or a shot at dye? I still like gold, since dye seems like a long shot.

I thought we would build another galley in Oasis. Are we chopping that out now?

Two Fish needs another 234 gpp for this GS:
234 gpp = 39 scientist-turns = 7t (4t x 6 + 3t x 5) - lose 12f
234 gpp = 39 scientist-turns = 6t (3t x 7 + 3t x 6) - lose 33f
I think 7t is fine.

I think we should be building another WB in Ivory. The clam seems more valuable than granary to me. If we switch now, we could complete it in 6t, for a 2pop granary whip with lots of overflow after the Slavery switch.

And, yes, we should get the border pop in Marble. Wait for 3t so it can grow, if we're not switching civics for 7.

 

[mushroomshirt]

So Mutineer is up next, unless mushroom or Silu want a crack

no thanks! I prefer to lurk (thanks for asking)

 

[Mutineer]

One question I need to resolve. Previously, did we ask anything from anybody nicelly?
Maps cost average and in some cases can be easy beg.

 

[shyuhe]

Sorry bbp! I totally forgot that you got skipped the first time around since you were out of town.

 

[Mutineer]

I think we should be building another WB in Ivory. The clam seems more valuable than granary to me. If we switch now, we could complete it in 6t, for a 2pop granary whip with lots of overflow after the Slavery switch.

And, yes, we should get the border pop in Marble. Wait for 3t so it can grow, if we're not switching civics for 7.

No Oasis building WB for ivory, granary there work fine, city working improved ties.

 

[Silu]

Yah, go ahead, I have some other stuff right now that would prevent me from focusing 100% on this. I'll say when I feel comfortable taking a set

Gift begging success probability depends on our power and on how long we've known the AIs, I'll perhaps get some concrete numbers soonish.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Buddism, I do not see the point. We really do not have production to produce missionaries. As I see it, for most of the game we will stay in conf, revolting to no religion when we need to trade with some one. Same for diplomatic finish. We do not get any real benefits from joining any religious block on permanent base. We are spiritual.

In SG3, CFR-W absolutely crushed the competition in a UN game. They played a mostly peaceful game, beelining Oxford, spamming GSes and spamming missionaries, with some warring after spamming the missionaries. Their situation is veeerryy similar to ours.

1. We need unis for Oxford and we need missionaries to convert as many civs as possible - that costs less hammers then conquering. After that we build units.

Their thread is relatively short and it's an excellent read.​

Mutineer, to be honest, I have a hard time aligning your turnset plan with our current situation and the VC. I think it's critical we understand your thinking process.

What is your Master Plan for UN victory?
1. How do you plan to get the ~62% votes we'll need?
2. Who will we need to get to Friendly?
3. How will we get them to Friendly?
4. Who do you expect to be our UN election opponent?
5. What warring do you envision us doing, how much warring, and when?
6. Right now, we are Izzy's, Mehmed's, and Saladin's worst enemy? How are you going to deal with that now and in the future?
7. How are you going to get trades for our needed happy resources? Right now, that includes Wines and Gems.

-------------

I think our fastest--and easiest--victory is spamming Buddhism.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Well played, shyuhe! Excellent job on spreading Buddhism to Ivory and growing the forest at Rice!

Toku has his hands full (war preps). That's good. Hopefully, he'll soon DoW Sal and we won't be Sal's WE anymore.

 

[Silu]

Just a reminder, you need AIs at +8 instead of +10 (friendly) for them to vote us to victory. Much easier to accomplish.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Is it +8 = Friendly, or just +8 = UN vote?

 

[Mutineer]

To be true, I do not understand. We already discussed that at start of the game.

In SG3, CFR-W absolutely crushed the competition in a UN game. They played a mostly peaceful game, beelining Oxford, spamming GSes and spamming missionaries, with some warring after spamming the missionaries. Their situation is veeerryy similar to ours.Their thread is relatively short and it's an excellent read.​

Mutineer, to be honest, I have a hard time aligning your turnset plan with our current situation and the VC. I think it's critical we understand your thinking process.

What is your Master Plan for UN victory?
1. How do you plan to get the ~62% votes we'll need?
Very simple, I was thinking we are on same page. We adopt theocracy enough time before vote for max + Bonus. We use spies to put this civ into Theocracy if they are not there already.

We adopt no state religion 5 turns before vote.
+4 from favorite civic
+ 4 from fair trades (on this stage we always will be able to get that).
+1 or +2 open borders, resources
Some - from our rejection from stopping trade.

On winning turn we revolt back to Conf and save game.

Result >+8 from all civs with Theocracy as favorite civic.

2. Who will we need to get to Friendly?
Not friendly, just vote for as. +8

All civs with Theocracy as favorite civic.
If that is not enogth, We can do same for Toky By adopting Mercantilism.
3. How will we get them to Friendly?

Read up.
4. Who do you expect to be our UN election opponent?

Have no idea at the moment, probably Syleiman, but it is unclear.
5. What warring do you envision us doing, how much warring, and when?

No at all if we claim /sure trade for resources.
6. Right now, we are Izzy's, Mehmed's, and Saladin's worst enemy? How are you going to deal with that now and in the future?

Read on top.
7. How are you going to get trades for our needed happy resources? Right now, that includes Wines and Gems.

Read my turn-set plan again, carefully this time. I explained it there, but if I need to repeat:

when we need some trades (like resources, tech, et. we revolt to no state religion for 5 turns, do trades, convert back to Conf)

AI does not cancel deals if your disposition drop.

-------------

I think our fastest--and easiest--victory is spamming Buddhism.

I disagree, because we will get ONLY ISSA this way, second civ is most likely election opponent.

 

[Mutineer]

Now, that is main plan, but we always should have back up plan.

Rigth now it is unclear which religion we really want. We did not chase religions and we seems do not plan to chase religions. So, who will get Christianity, Islam and converted to that? We do not know.

If we want to prevent AI from getting them and use the fact that Justian has no religions at the moment. But Situation will become mach more clear when we get maps. Rigth now it is useless to discuss.

Personally I do not see how it is connected to my turn set, as we defiantly can not spread any religions at the moment.

 

[Silu]

+10 is Friendly, +8 is what you need to be voted. Note that it can be +8 and ("hidden") Furious, due to vassals, and they'll still vote us.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Well, this discussion's connected to your turnset, Mutineer, because you seem intent on NOT spamming AND working 9 cottages in Delhi asap. Furthermore, it seems you're NOT planning to build Oxford asap. Please correct me if I'm mistaken about that. Then I can respond to your other post.

 

[shyuhe]

I wouldn't starve 2fish to pop the GS, but I'd be willing to put it into negative food so that it doesn't grow into unhappiness (temporarily hire a GS). We can always convert those extra people into citizens during our 5 turn slavery burst.

I think we're on the same page on this but wanted to confirm - we do not adopt slavery until AFTER we get the philosophy GS. Having a philosophy monopoly really slows down the AI's chasing of liberalism, giving us ample time for radio.

I think the Bombay settler should give the dyes a chance. I'd say there's a reasonable chance we'll pick it up right now. As for Delhi, I'm ok chopping the plains forest left in its BFC but I wouldn't go outside of it yet.

Where are we going to build warriors? I'd like another 2-3 for security but not sure what cities have hammers to spare right now.

 

[Mutineer]

No one plan to starve 2 fish, read previous posts, it will loose 17 food If I remember correctly.

Yes, we adopting slavery on the turn GS pop, that is main idea behind speeding up GS, so we can use slavery, finish paper and trade for maps.

We need to finish HG, I will chop forests outside FC, I do not see any reason why not?

Slavery will let as to trow some overflow into warriors.

 

[Mutineer]

Well, this discussion's connected to your turnset, Mutineer, because you seem intent on NOT spamming AND working 9 cottages in Delhi asap. Furthermore, it seems you're NOT planning to build Oxford asap. Please correct me if I'm mistaken about that. Then I can respond to your other post.

Read my original post, where did I sad I do not plan to be oxward ASP? What I plan to spamm?? I do not undestand you, read my original post carefully!

I am tied to respond on some abstract complains when nothing in my post indicate anything I am accuse in!

 

[LowtherCastle]

Believe me, Mutineer:

I ALWAYS READ YOUR POSTS VEEEEERY CAREFULLY!​

Hunting, yes we do have 5 warriors, but 2 of them in potential risk, one exploring and other in ivory city.

We have seven warriors right now. With Ivory, silver, gold, gems, wine, incense, sugar, dyes, silk, religion, whales plus whatever else, it's entirely possible that some of our cities won't need any garrisons till late in the game, when we try to max their population. I consider it seriously debateable whether we need to delay the hunting happiness or invest hammers in many more warriors right now.

I believe we are loosing more food and sci in production right now, because we do not have lighthouse and library in the city.
So, we should do it. Advantages, we would not need additional happiness. We can delay getting hunting. Ivory workers will use it turns to build some roads.

...

So, from there come plan, produce GS in 6 turns, switch to slavery in 6 turns and do necessary whipping for 5 turns why staying in org religion, then when 2 fish re-grow(very fast), switch to pacifism/castle. ( we might be wanted to have 5 turns of non religion for trade, if there will be some trade opportunities at time, like trading maps)

Poprushing Two Fish slows down our Educ GS. This potentially slows down our Oxford build. Hence, my conclusion that you are not trying to build Oxford asap.

>>>>>> Please note, Mutineer, that I never said there's anything wrong with slowing down Oxford. All I said is that it's important to understand your thinking. <<<<<<

Buddism, I do not see the point. We really do not have production to produce missionaries. As I see it, for most of the game we will stay in conf, revolting to no religion when we need to trade with some one. Same for diplomatic finish. We do not get any real benefits from joining any religious block on permanent base. We are spiritual.

There are several benefits from being Friendly with Izzy, Mehmed, Toku, and Justy, all Buddhist:
1. Monopoly tech trades
2. No unexpected Dows on us.
3. Common war plusmods against Sal (or whoever).

Capital, workers after finishing current actions should go and chop 2 forests into HG, we need to finish it asap, and aviability of slavery at time of it finish let as put new population to use.

In your plan, these two workers will chop instead of cottage. That is NOT spamming and working cottages in Delhi asap. Hence my conclusion that you are not spamming and working cottages in Delhi asap.

I think our fastest--and easiest--victory is spamming Buddhism.

I disagree, because we will get ONLY ISSA this way, second civ is most likely election opponent.

Buddhism gives us Izzy and Mehmed immediately. They are also the very two most likely to DoW us or dogpile us.

6. Right now, we are Izzy's, Mehmed's, and Saladin's worst enemy? How are you going to deal with that now and in the future?

Read on top.

You still haven't answered my question about how you plan to deal with being Worst Enemy with Izzy and Mehmed NOW (not after Theocracy for 30t). Izzy could decide to DoW us any time. Then what? We don't want her to capture Ivory.

Read my turn-set plan again, carefully this time. I explained it there, but if I need to repeat:

when we need some trades (like resources, tech, et. we revolt to no state religion for 5 turns, do trades, convert back to Conf)

AI does not cancel deals if your disposition drop.

This can cost us lots of GPPs. GPPs are the most important and most difficult challenge for us in this game. We need a zillion GSes plus 4 more GPs. And your strategy includes:
1. The need to lose a ton of GPPs every time we decide to switch to NSR for trades?!?
2. The need to switch to Theocracy instead of Pacifism for 22+ turns?!?

I guess this is a no-brainer for you, but it sure isn't for me...

 

[mystyfly]

Sorry guys I don't have time to comment on the save but hope to catch a glimpse of it before I leave early tmr morning. I'm sure you played a great set shyuhe, I'm sure you preformed to your usual standards

I hope we get along with eachother and finish this game as a team. However I think we all know that opposition and disagreements encourage discussion and are a good thing