SGOTM 11 - One Short Straw

[shyuhe]

Also, does anybody know if the "we have our reasons" denial reason overrides the "we don't want to start trading this technology yet" reason? If so, we can tell when construction on the MoM begins.

 

[babybluepants]

Why are we building a lh instead of a galley (or library) in Oasis?

I think we need library builds in both Oasis and Marble asap. We're some 10t from Education? If we can invest 78h into a library 1t before Education, a size 6 city can do a university in 2t (99h overflow - 2pop whip for 202h). I was hoping we'd work towards that. Oasis and Marble seem to be behind at first glance. (Delhi can 2pop whip it with 1h invested.)

Also, I don't really get the market in Two Fish - can't see us ever actually completing that. The only thing I would slowly build there is an aqueduct maybe. Bombay should probably switch to a forge now, but I'll look into whether that can complete in time for the Uni whip.

Edit:
I asked this before: why do we care about MoM here? We can't exactly spare GP's for multiple golden ages given the variant, and we're SPI.

 

[Silu]

Tech denial priority:

NO_GAIN > NOT_POSSIBLE > WORST_ENEMY > ATTITUDE > WFYABTA > MONOPOLY > MYSTERY > VICTORY

So "We have our reasons" (MYSTERY) does not override "We don't want to start trading this yet" (MONOPOLY)

 

[Mutineer]

No we are not 10 turns form education. Lighthouse let city grow for uni whip, even with bonus I believe it 3 pop whip. We have more then 10 turns, LH let them grow with out needed worker turns, which are limited.

Do not underestimate usefulness of LH, you made a gross mistake in previous turns not slowly building only LH. If you did that it would be finished before and provided way more food for specialists. BY avoiding it you hurt as, indirect way same times faster.

Market is happiness source, 2 Fish can use more happiness for max specialists run. we can switch to forge Now (was not available at time), but Market is valid alternative.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I asked this before: why do we care about MoM here? We can't exactly spare GP's for multiple golden ages given the variant, and we're SPI.

GAge gives +100% GP production in addition to all the added commerce and production. That's like having a NE in all our GP cities. In SG10, we produced 4GPs in both GAs. In SG8 we also made a ton of GPs in GAs. GAs w/MoM the last 30t of the game are killer. Even better if we build Taj and do it for the last 45t. The cost of MoM is peanuts by comparison. The cost of the 1 or 3GPs also.

 

[LowtherCastle]

No we are not 10 turns form education. Lighthouse let city grow for uni whip, even with bonus I believe it 3 pop whip. We have more then 10 turns, LH let them grow with out needed worker turns, which are limited.

Do not underestimate usefulness of LH, you made a gross mistake??? in previous turns not slowly building only LH. If you did that it would be finished before and provided way more food for specialists. BY avoiding it you hurt as, indirect way same times faster.

Market is happiness source, 2 Fish can use more happiness for max specialists run. we can switch to forge Now (was not available at time), but Market is valid alternative.

1. We're talking about the lighthouse in Oasis.
2. The only gross mistake made was the team not being on the same page. The idea of the library was to get Oxford fast. mdy and I both posted test saves showing that. You didn't post any test saves to the contrary. Then you came along and did things completely differently. In particular, you stopped emphasizing Oxford asap. Btw, when you started your turnset, the library only had 71 hammers. That means the lighthouse, instead, would have only had 71 hammers. In other words, when you poprushed the lh, it got done about the same time as building it by hand. So IN ACTUAL FACT, contrary to abstractions and theory, the TRUTH is, no food was lost.

Mutineer, would you PLEASE stop being so aggressive and obnoxious with your communication? Pretty please?

(Or should I ask why you settled next to the gold which most people on the team were against?)

 

[Mutineer]

(Or should I ask why you settled next to the gold which most people on the team were against?)

Read posts, I believe 3 of team agree on gold.
How I did it will bring Oxward faster! not slower.

 

[LowtherCastle]

(Or should I ask why you settled next to the gold which most people on the team were against?)

Read posts, I believe 3 of team agree on gold.
How I did it will bring Oxward faster! not slower.

Yes, we agreed on settling gold instead of dyes, if that's what you mean. But most talked about settling the gold hill that included the fish and two more gold tiles.

I hope Oxford will be fast enough. mdy and I both focused on farming and mining Bombay (I wouldn't have sent the worker to gold yet--not so important and tile won't even be used for a while. But I suppose you wanted to free up the galley asap, so there's a logic there too.). Furthermore, the worker turns needed for Oasis could be provided by the worker from Ivory, who instead will be idle for who knows how long now. The Oasis plains tiles are better than the coastal tiles because we need hammers in that city. You haven't even started the library there and we're mid-lh and we need a galley...

How in the world is bbp going to deal with that Ivory worker?

 

[Mutineer]

Galley cost almost same as worker.
So, If one build galley just to move worker, one can just build worker.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Anyway. The point is for us to not criticize each other. That's not helpful. You did what you did, and you did what you thought was right. That's fine. That's all any of us can do. Now we move forward. We either ask you for info from your turnset or we talk about what we want to do next.

----------

We clearly need another galley for the east. We've already discussed that. And we need lots of other stuff. bbp gets to figure all that out, with our help.

 

[shyuhe]

Ok guys, it looks like there's some miscommunication going on here so how about this. Going forward, will each PPP please list the anticipated city builds and any significant movements? I can keep a running track of the big picture goals that we're trying to achieve here. This should help put us all on the same page then. I know this is going to involve more work for everyone involved, but hopefully we can avoid breakdowns in communication about what the current player is planning on doing. We don't need a turn-by-turn PPP for every turn set but I'd like to see some detail going forward. I hope that's not too cumbersome.

@Mutineer - our team roster is 9, 7 if you don't count our two "lurkers." So I'd like to see at least 5 people agree on uncancellable actions, like founding cities, so that we have some sense of consensus here (even if it's not unanimous). I'm sorry if I wasn't clearer about this earlier but I want to make this clear now so that it doesn't become an issue later.

 

[Mutineer]

Let me put it simple.

Size 7 city in org religion can whip booth library and uni in 4 turns. Bigger cities= more commerce, more free units.. etc.

So, instead of thinking (I have to build library Now) think I need to grow city to happiness/health cap now!

It is mach better to grow cities in max food in Castle/pacifism and whip infrastructure in Slavery/Org religion then naturally build thinks.

So, first and foremost next set should think How I can grow 6(5) UNies cities as fast as possible to there health/happiness cap.

Lighthouses give access to 4 unit production costal ties(2 food 2 commerce), which are food neutral.

About Gold city, I do not remember any posts discussing it's location. I would not even consider other location because:

other location is under cultural pressure, it will loose one of golds anyway pretty soon.
Current location claim rare sea resource, more compact and provide convenient bridge between our continents.

 

[Silu]

The western scout WB should go into Angora to wait until it's safe to scout south again. AFAIK boats get 2tile vision when in foreign cities so should be able to see when it's safe. It's pretty important to get the scout in, unless that island is only 1 tile wide it will give us circumnavigation. If our WB gets whacked should give some thoguht to making a scout Trireme.

Should gift Rice to Izzy and sell Clams to Mehmed I guess...

 

[babybluepants]

Ok, lots to sift through... I'll post a (pre)-pre-PPP for discussion sometime in the next 12hrs, when I've had a chance to look at everything more carefully.

So, instead of thinking (I have to build library Now) think I need to grow city to happiness/health cap now!

Sure, but that's quite vague. We're not talking about some abstract optimal growth/production pattern in each city. Instead it's about getting Education > all 6 Universities done asap. That may well result in slightly sacrificing long-term growth in some cities. You should know this well, since you consistently argue for massive sacrifices to growth/expansion in favour of early wonder gambits. I think the issue here is one of priorities: you don't seem to put premium value on Oxford date, whereas LC, mdy and I (at least) do. This seemed to be the general consensus for a few TS's now, if for no other reason than lack of counter-argument after mdy's and LC's tests. I guess it's good to hash this out prior to my set.

 

[shyuhe]

Sign me up for the "Oxford or bust" plan too. The key will be to time our cities so that we can whip the 6 universities within 3 turns of completing education (ideally well before 1AD). As long as we can meet that goal, I'm pretty flexible on the means.

Also, I'm assuming people are OK with a single GS bulb on education?

 

[LowtherCastle]

Mutineer, did you happen to notice when and why Toku and Justy closed their borders?

 

[LowtherCastle]

My thoughts:

1. GS+Educ easily in 11t (2fish works max sci, growing to pop11 in 3t) / (or faster w/Mutineer's idea)

2. Then you can finish all unis in max 6t (Bombay is the problem).

3. City possibilities:
A. Bombay, starting next turn could borrow the corn for ~3t to fill the granary. Need to finish Bombay fp farm some time soon.
B. Marble+Oasis, switch to library immediately. Oasis wkr finishes mine then chops the library. Figure out how to handle Rice too.
C. Ivory, prebuild for 2pops: galley (4t*7h=28h) and Buddh Monastery (4t*10h=40h), grow to pop6.
D. Need to figure out how to pre-chop forests to finish into Oxford during OR. EDIT: Could also build Oxford by hand, without OR. Save chops for GL or what have you.

4. Poprushing cycle: After Educ, switch to slavery/OR, 2pop unis, except 2fish, Rice, Marble 3pops (I think). Ivory, 2pops galley, with overflow into Moai, then 2pops Buddh Monastery with over into Maoi.

5. Play turnset to completion of all unis.

6. Mehmed, trade clams for 2gpt.

Edit2:

7. The warrior between Gold CIty and 2fish can go to Marble to garrison. The Taoist Miss can replace the warrior fogbusting S of the deer, so that warrior can go garrison where needed.

8. Maybe send the Gold City axe along the coast to the N to fogbust against barb galleys spawning.

Note to Mutineer: My test date for Educ was ~125BC.

 

[Mutineer]

I would have no objections, but that will make mach early education date then in tests, (If I remember correctly your test edu date was about 100AD, in 11 turns we still be in BC.

A few notes, gold city border expand next turn, there is ready and should be active WB bear sea food.
After worker finish mining and connecting gold we should cancel gold for silver deal (+1 happiness).

Grow 2 fish in 2 turns resulted in slightly more GP's then grow in 3 (WE hire 4 specialists, so for loose 1 specialists/turn for 2 turns we getting 4 GP turn on 3rd turn)

Total GP/turns grow in 3 =(+1*3)= 3
Total gp turn grow in 2 =(+0*2 +4*1) = 4

 

[shyuhe]

I'll take a look at the save tonight but I think we should chop Oxford if we have the worker turns. We don't want the GL until we are close to popping our GE anyways.

 

[Mutineer]

On more think. In Ivory we should continue to build Moa or Galley. No need for monastery.

When next slavery/Org religion cycle comes we can whip Buddits missionary for 2 population trowing overflow into Moa with out need to build Monastery.

Not only we get Missionary this way, we will speed up Moa too.