SGOTM 11 - One Short Straw
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
LowtherCastle
Deity
- Joined
- May 18, 2005
- Messages
- 23,750
There are many ways to speed up the United Nations, such as max overflow from poprushing, cash rushing, pre-building the capital in another city, etc. The key is to plan it in advance as a back-up plan if we don't get the GE. There is no excuse for not completing the UN very quickly. It simply doesn't happen.
Remember the UN has a +300% rush cost penalty. I can't see a way to just conjure 1500 hammers out of the ether without a GE. Of course we should plan for building it fast without one, but a GE is insurmountably more efficient in speeding it up compared to any alternative.shyuhe
Deity
Alternatively, we can throw the Parthenon into Delhi. It'll do some artist pollution but speed our overall GPP production by a bit. I'm staring to think we might have to use a golden age + caste workshops to build the UN given our luck.
I'm for bribing Toku out of war with Zara, if possible. We want him attacking Saladin, or at least Justinian.
UN:
If we don't get an Engineer, we'll obviously rush it as much as possible. The unfortunate thing isn't how long it takes, but that we can't fall back on our Saladin-UN-gift backup plan. We'd need to ensure that Toku is the opponent. Can we estimate their populations with any accuracy from this point? I don't know enough about how growth potential translates into actual city size in AI hands.
Edit: Saladin's kinda on the way to barb continent. One option is to get Toku into a war there later, and help him out a bit?
Settling:
Does it really make that much sense to borrow fish from Sugar? I don't really know the math, but I would figure that the 6fpt ultimately translates into 3 pop regardless (assuming we have enough happy to maintain the pop in one city).
Edit: Actually, forget this. We should settle it.
Deer and cow are definitely ok - not that much pop, but it's something.
That can't be right - you're showing 42 gpp per turn in your spreadsheet. That's 3 specialists. I think we need to plan out another GP pop from Delhi at highest possible GE odds, and run scientists as required. A rep scientist is almost as good as a river village, and certainly as good as a non-river village, IMHO.
UN:
If we don't get an Engineer, we'll obviously rush it as much as possible. The unfortunate thing isn't how long it takes, but that we can't fall back on our Saladin-UN-gift backup plan. We'd need to ensure that Toku is the opponent. Can we estimate their populations with any accuracy from this point? I don't know enough about how growth potential translates into actual city size in AI hands.
Edit: Saladin's kinda on the way to barb continent. One option is to get Toku into a war there later, and help him out a bit?
Settling:
Does it really make that much sense to borrow fish from Sugar? I don't really know the math, but I would figure that the 6fpt ultimately translates into 3 pop regardless (assuming we have enough happy to maintain the pop in one city).
Edit: Actually, forget this. We should settle it.
Deer and cow are definitely ok - not that much pop, but it's something.
Here is our current estimate:
Us: 77
Zara: 25
Spain: 23
Mehemed: 57
Justin: 52
Saladin: 37
Japan: 69
Us+Zara+Spain+Mehemed gives us 53.5% of the vote, with Justin this rises to 68.8%.
We should easily be the largest Civ. As long as we can ensure that Japan is the largest Civ we should have enough votes (even if we lose Justin we can probably get just enough votes by growing our cities.)
This won't get us enough GP votes either, and given our need for missionaries/military units to take furs we probably don't have the spare production anyway.
with a T+55 victory date the deer city would grow to size 8 if we camp the deer immediatley and have all farms ready in time for growth. If we built it with the settler being built in Oasis it would be at size 7.
By contrast the incense site would be at size 9 as it is actually possible to build a granay/lighthouse there in a reasonable time. If built with the second settler it would be at size 7.
The sugar city would lose 4-5 pop if the incense city was settled first, or 3-4 pop if settled second.
Beyond this date the incense city will continue to gain pop faster than the lakes due to the granary.
The cow city is unlikely to grow above 2.
LowtherCastle
Deity
- Joined
- May 18, 2005
- Messages
- 23,750
1. As long as we have enough population, we can always gift the UN, no matter where we build it, even if we have to pre-build a capital in another city. This is especially giftable to Zara, because he's easy to keep at 3 cities or less and we can capture Aksum any time. We just need to make sure we can negotiate with him in time. If he has that island city, no AI will ever capture it and exterminate him. Note that if we use poprushing to put hammers into the UN, that city is going to be worth far fewer votes anyway.
2. How long would it take to research Communism? SP gives us+1hammers +1
for workshops and +10
in cities. Plus, if we could finish The Kremlin fast enough, then rushing the UN will be significatnly faster. We would just need the Kremlin done before we finish the UN, not when we start building it.
2. How long would it take to research Communism? SP gives us
for workshops and +10 in cities. Plus, if we could finish The Kremlin fast enough, then rushing the UN will be significatnly faster. We would just need the Kremlin done before we finish the UN, not when we start building it.It would delay us by about 5 turns, taking account of the extra GP bulb. I thought state property gave +1 food not +1 hammer to workshops. The extra food should not matter as we can build the U.N. whilst starving the capital a little. The +10% hammers will probably only shave about a turn off the U.N. If we whipped the U.N. the Kremlin won't save more than 2 turns, so this looks like it will cost us more time than it would save.
If the fur city is heavily defended it will take us a long time to build all the units we need, it might take us longer to capture this city than it takes to build the U.N. Perhaps we should cancel our copper trade with Saladin and start building maces in Delhi/ 2 fish/rice/marble to get started.
shyuhe
Deity
Been busy recently but I'll post a PPP tonight.
LowtherCastle
Deity
- Joined
- May 18, 2005
- Messages
- 23,750
With a 7 pop whip and the mass conversion of the cottages into workshops immediately after mass media, then provided we can trade for guilds by this point I figure we should be able to get the U.N. in 12 turns without State Property, and 10 turns with it.
Hopefully we won't have any need to pop rush anything else, but we won't be able to tell for sure until we have located the fur.
Hopefully we won't have any need to pop rush anything else, but we won't be able to tell for sure until we have located the fur.
LowtherCastle
Deity
- Joined
- May 18, 2005
- Messages
- 23,750
Are we still going to have our GA at that point? It could bulb MM with the GSpy replacing it.
The point of poprushing is other pre-builds in our UN city with overflow into the UN, but that depends on how much hpt its getting with all the wkshops whether it actually helps, I guess, and how much.
The point of poprushing is other pre-builds in our UN city with overflow into the UN, but that depends on how much hpt its getting with all the wkshops whether it actually helps, I guess, and how much.
Sorry I did not comment early , was a bit bizy.
Well, My opinion.
We need to forget about attempt to push out GE in capital.
Capital need to grow as mach as possible, simple because:
1) our bureaucratic/Oxford capital effect depend on it's size. Research, production, etc..
2) GM mission result again proportional capital size.
3) speed of building wander naturally depends on capital size.
4) amount of possible pop rushes depend on size.
IN short from thsi point all fire all specialists in capital and grow it as mach as possible.
But we should not give up attempts to get Ge, in order to do that we need to whip Forges in all cities we CAN Potentially get out GP - Marble, Sugar, Floodplain city and start running specialists engineer in them, including Moa city and even bombei.
If we chain irrigate Bombei we probably could put out Gp there.
Run GE in 2 fish all the time and push out GP in 2 fish as fast as possible.
Forget about producing GS's, Push out GM's in 2 fish and finish Market there.
Well, My opinion.
We need to forget about attempt to push out GE in capital.
Capital need to grow as mach as possible, simple because:
1) our bureaucratic/Oxford capital effect depend on it's size. Research, production, etc..
2) GM mission result again proportional capital size.
3) speed of building wander naturally depends on capital size.
4) amount of possible pop rushes depend on size.
IN short from thsi point all fire all specialists in capital and grow it as mach as possible.
But we should not give up attempts to get Ge, in order to do that we need to whip Forges in all cities we CAN Potentially get out GP - Marble, Sugar, Floodplain city and start running specialists engineer in them, including Moa city and even bombei.
If we chain irrigate Bombei we probably could put out Gp there.
Run GE in 2 fish all the time and push out GP in 2 fish as fast as possible.
Forget about producing GS's, Push out GM's in 2 fish and finish Market there.
Guys I'm finally back... very busy with RL stuff though 
I read all those posts and checked the save - it's looking great
I'm gonna wait for shyuhe's PPP with "real" comments - just some small things:
- Nice to see oasis working 2 plainmines and not the iron mine - which would yield as much but doesn't have the chance to pop any resource.
- Are we planning to finish the shweda paya? I Don't Think So. But wanna check anyway
- Let's focus EPs on japan for now to see his demos. Are we going to steal anything from zara? We have some 500 EPs on him or so.
- RE building UN without a GE: I think with 1-2 cashbombs as well as milking the AIs for every piece of gold could do it.
I read all those posts and checked the save - it's looking great
I'm gonna wait for shyuhe's PPP with "real" comments - just some small things:
- Nice to see oasis working 2 plainmines and not the iron mine - which would yield as much but doesn't have the chance to pop any resource.
- Are we planning to finish the shweda paya? I Don't Think So. But wanna check anyway
- Let's focus EPs on japan for now to see his demos. Are we going to steal anything from zara? We have some 500 EPs on him or so.
- RE building UN without a GE: I think with 1-2 cashbombs as well as milking the AIs for every piece of gold could do it.
Just to put things into context: rushing the UN with gold from 1->1500 hammers costs 18000 gold. So one GM gives about 200 hammers, while a GE would give ~800. Not so great, but still might be the best we can get...
Well, throw in overflow, chopping, production multipliers, etc in the equation as well, silu. Am I right in assuming that prod modifiers apply to the cashrush as well (as to the poprush)? Also, if we build it for 1t we lose the 50% hurry penalty.
I'm not really experienced in cashrushing though. Point is, I am wondering whether running engineer(s) is worth their benefit, especially in 2fish where the chance is damn low anyway... something like "justice" for the missed GE doesn't exist in civ I guess...
... like in soccer
I'm not really experienced in cashrushing though. Point is, I am wondering whether running engineer(s) is worth their benefit, especially in 2fish where the chance is damn low anyway... something like "justice" for the missed GE doesn't exist in civ I guess...
... like in soccer
Sadly, you're wrong
Cashrush doesn't get any bonuses except the Kremlin. Maybe we should look into going MMedia->Communism to speed things up in the case of no GE? Especially if we're going to use GM gold for rushing the UN...mystyfly said:
Yeah, that's why I said to rush it from 1
to 1500 , not from 0 mystyfly said:
Yeah I'm not sure one way or the other. Without the Kremlin a GM is about 25% of a GE, with it it's a bit under 40%.
shyuhe
Deity
Ugh, sorry team. I'm going to have to take a temporary skip here. I don't see myself having time to post a good PPP and play a turn set until the end of next week so I think somebody else should pick it up.
Similar threads
