SGOTM 11 - One Short Straw

mdy said:
Perhaps we should consider founding 7 early cities on our island instead of 6 to deny the horses/fish site to Zara? Depending on where/if we founded the sugar city then the fish could be shared between them, and this site would be a potential Maori Statues location.
Post-Currency we should be more than ok to settle horse/fish, I would think. We probably should - no point letting Zara have a shot. It would be nice if our economy didn't take a complete nosedive pre-Educ, but I think we can certainly afford to settle at least another city or two. It's hard to say at this point. There's also the potential for off-island sites soon - esp. ones that may have the requisite resources.
 
mdy, when are you planning to play on?

I could play on either later today or tomorrow, unless Shyuhe wants to take over at this point?

If I'm playing on I will post a revised MM plan for discussion before doing so.
 
Plan:

Immediately open borders with Justinian, Revolt to slavery, Equalise espionage points, convert to Confunicism.

Two fish keeps working cows as that will allow us to do a 1 pop whip on the granary on T+7


T+1: workboat built in Oasis, explores to east.
T+1: order Delhi worker to chop forest 1S of capital. Order 2 fish workers to forest 2W NW of capital, thn chop this forest.
T+3: Delhi grows to size 6, works 2F 1H. Start settler.
T+4: Delhi whips settler for 3 pop. Works corn and two scientists. Bombay works other corn instead of horses. Forest 2W NW is chopped, order 1 worker to forest grass hill and mine it.
T+5: workboat built by chopping forest 2W of Oasis city, explores to north. Worker moves to chop forest W SW of oasis city. Start workboat.
T+5: GS born in Delhi. Found academy. Fire scientists and work 2 corn and silver. Bombay goes back to working horses. Settler built, send to found city between horses and incense. Worker 2W NW of Delhi sent to grass forest hill which it will mine.
T+6: Pyramids built T117. Start aquaduct. Worker S of Delhi goes to improve Incense city.



If the worker building the unforested mine is sent to chop the plains forest when the mine is finished, this should ensure that 2 chops are done on the same turn (the other being the grass forested hill), which should enbale us to build a settler for city 7 on T127/128.

Warrior in Askum stays fortified where it is to spy on Zara.
Keep slider at 0%.
Play until Pyramids is built in 6 turns, or till something unexpected happens.


Looking ahead, it looks like we are going to be expanding faster than our workers can keep up, maybe it would be an idea to start working the pigs immediately in 2 Fish, and start a worker at size 2? This would be finished on T+13.
 
I really want an additional WB to go west and check this desert island first(Only a few moves), so we know what is there and can finalize Dotmap.

Right now we absolutely sure only about horses/fish and top north marble/lot of sea food sites.

Otherwise I have no problem.
 
ohh and do remember not to put more then 14(I believe some one check this number?) hammers into settler for full 3 pop whip overflow.
 
Do we really want to send the two pig workers to chop Delhi, just to get the Pyramids on T117 instead of T118?
 
Isn't the pasture complete when we send them to Delhi? If so, there's nothing to improve near 2-fish until the WB's are done and the city needs a farm. But that's a long ways off.
 
Only settle rice after we scout out West, I am really do not want to put unoptimum cities and filler cities like currently market in save.

We better have 6 good one's.
 
Suboptimal placement maybe (?), but hardly filler. That spot has a lot of food. Wherever we end up placing it, it'll take a while to get rolling due to the lack of base production. That's why I'd prefer it up sooner rather than later.
 
Are we decided on horse/incense as #6? I guess I'm ok with that, so long as we build the rice city asap after this set.

Unless we want to dramatically increase the chances of Zara getting the site, I think we need to settle it next (as #5). The next settler is scheduled to be built in Bombay on T+7 (T118). The next one will most likely be built around T+17(T128)



I really want an additional WB to go west and check this desert island first(Only a few moves)

The only way we could get a workboat there quickly is if we built it in the fish city. I guess we could do this by whipping it at 2 pop. Alternatively we could chop for it at the expense of delaying the Pyramids. Does anyone have any thoughts as to whether building another early worker in 2fish is worthwhile?


Edit: I was planning on stopping when the Pyramids were built in the capital, so we would not yet be committed to our next build there.
 
So, the first WB is going to the island NE of Zara and the second towards Justinian? Yeah, it would be nice to have an explorer for the island in the west. Not sure if we should get it from Two Fish... I certainly wouldn't commit a chop to it, if that slows down the 'Mids. I guess we could whip one as soon as size 2 like you suggest? (though I cringe at the thought). Maybe we could also slow build it, then 2-pop whip granary for max overflow? That sounds a bit slow.

PS: didn't we establish that OB doesn't give us immediate TR's or increase the chance of auto-spread? I'd be ok with holding off 'till we have route established to his capital.
 
Mutineer, would you please give a full explanation of why you think settling Rice on the river plain is better. I think it is worse and I already said why:
@Mutineer: Frankly, I like Rice on the fp 1S of the rice tile better than the river plains. It gets 6 river tiles instead of four. It gets the marble tile, which we don't want to work in Marble City when we're running specs. It can have 6hpt instead of 1 or 2, and it doesn't lose a forest by settling.
I should probably add some more of my thinking on Rice. We want to cottage it, imo. We will need a fair amount of coins later on. More than we'll get from trade routes and Delhi alone. We'll build an army at some point and under pacifism this could cost quite a bit. Furthermore, cottaging fps is better than farming them and running sci, even under Rep. In river-plains Rice, at pop11 we could run 6sci with four fp farms. That's 41bpt +1hpt + 18gppt (w/o multipliers). In fp Rice, at pop11 we could run 3sci, 6 river villages (5gpt w/PP), and work the marble tile. That's 51bpt + 6hpt + 9gppt.

Rice with farms will not get us more GPs overall than Rice with cottages, because we will get our maximum number of GPs no matter what. That's something I know how to max out.

I just don't see why you prefer river-plains Rice.

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Folks, I am deeply concerned about two things: 1) our upcoming rate of development and 2) our worker actions. I hope you'll take this post seriously. I feel like I'm repeating myself somewhat...

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Our rate of development
Rule #1: In very important, low-hammer cities, do NOT build something that another city can build for them.
Rule #1 applies to Two Fish and Marble City. We want these two cities working max sci asap. These two cities must 1) build needed infra and 2) grow asap. Period. Nothing else. Not wbs. Not workers. Not settlers.

To grow asap, both Two Fish and Marble need wbs asap, built elsewhere. Those 5 fishnets are more important than almost anything else right now. They cannot wait for exploring wbs to circumnavigate and return. These two cities plus Delhi will be the lifeblood of our research. We can't be taking 20t to research techs, which is what we're looking at with Currency right now. We should be thinking of how Two Fish can be working 5, 6, maybe 8 sci 20t from now. This is 1000X more important than an extra fp in Rice city (that will have to be farmed rather than cottaged so we can irrigate the rice :eek:).

Our worker actions
Rule #2: Fast workers should make some improvement on some tile every turn, even when their goal is to move from A to B.
Rule #2 will of course have exceptions, but very very few. Good grief, guys, they have 3:move:!!! Moving a worker from the pigs to chop Delhi is an exception because of the Pyramids. Moving a worker onto a forested hill is an unavoidable exception. There are vbery few other exceptions that are justifiable in this game, believe me. Moving from the horses to the cows should have left two turns of roading on some tile, but I can't find them (pls correct me if I'm wrong). If you move straight from the horses to the cows, you can't do anything else this turn, so why not stop a tile or two short and road? Eventually we'll want those cities connected by road for unit movement.

Moving around Delhi offers a ton of possible 1t improvements: roading selected tiles, cottaging river tiles, mining chopped hills, chopping forests.

Example 1: Suppose the worker at Delhi 1S finishes his chop and you want him to mine Delhi NE next. The can move NE-E and cottage 1t. Then next turn he moves onto the hill and mines. No lost turns.

Example 2: Suppose the worker at Delhi 2W-NW finishes his chop and you want to send him to pasture the cows at Marble, which will be settled in 3t. He could move NE-N-NW-road1t, then 3NW, then pasture cows. In this case, the forest south of the cows forces a 1t rule exception, but we still got a partial road in at Bombay 1W.

If we obey this rule and think carefully about which partial improvements to makes, we can build lots of roads and cottages. Note that we can even partially chop forests while moving--something impossible with normal workers.

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Edit: I forgot something:
Rule #3: In an SG turnset, always cancel worker actions. Every worker. Every turn.
:cool: Now they hate me for sure...
 
Isn't the pasture complete when we send them to Delhi? If so, there's nothing to improve near 2-fish until the WB's are done and the city needs a farm. But that's a long ways off.
Yes, you're right. Two Fish doesn't need a farm until pop7 for working 9sci at pop16, since we'll have two 3f2g lakes. We won't have that many happies for a long time. But...

If we build Rice City immediately after Marble City (actually they both could be settled on T120 iirc), then the second pigs worker chops the Two Fish granary, then pre-chops the first Rice wb. That's the fastest wb for western exploration.

Here's a comparison of Two Fish's development:
Code:
After building the Two Fish granary, on T124 we have:

                  pop  food   lh prod
                  ---  ----   -------
1pop @pop2 T117    2   21/36    8/90   
     
1pop @pop3 T119    2   29/36   17/90

1chop no poprush   3   29/39   20/90
So if we chop the granary, we'll be able to 2pop the lh on T126. T129, we would need the first wb and a few turns later the second. Then we either 2pop the library or immediately grow to our happy max and hire sci.
 
Mutineer, would you please give a full explanation of why you think settling Rice on the river plain is better. I think it is worse and I already said why:I should probably add some more of my thinking on Rice. We want to cottage it, imo. We will need a fair amount of coins later on. More than we'll get from trade routes and Delhi alone. We'll build an army at some point and under pacifism this could cost quite a bit. Furthermore, cottaging fps is better than farming them and running sci, even under Rep. In river-plains Rice, at pop11 we could run 6sci with four fp farms. That's 41bpt +1hpt + 18gppt (w/o multipliers). In fp Rice, at pop11 we could run 3sci, 6 river villages (5gpt w/PP), and work the marble tile. That's 51bpt + 6hpt + 9gppt.

Rice with farms will not get us more GPs overall than Rice with cottages, because we will get our maximum number of GPs no matter what. That's something I know how to max out.

I just don't see why you prefer river-plains Rice.

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it will have 1 more food and 4 more forests in TC, 3 of them not shared, available for chopping or health..
If we do not settle west city, because we find other use for seafood.


you put too mach weight in loosing 2 riverside ties.
 
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