Could we just play 2-3t right now? If Isabella settles the ivory, this settler whip debate is kinda pointless.
SGOTM 11 - One Short Straw
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
though I thought LC would do that anyway but was now testing MM for 2fish or so which we kinda need to decide now.
Ok. It seems to me like an immediate granary whip with overflow into a WB, as LC suggested, is clearly best. I guess the aqueduct overflow is a bit of a question, too?
LowtherCastle
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What is this: politics, football or women? IMO... blondes are divine, brunettes are voluptuous...
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Marble doesn't need any tile before T+4 and needs 180h for gran+lh.
Suppose we work the cows from T+6 and 1chop the granary. Pop2 on T+16, Granary on T+18. Best-case, wb1 on T+16, then it grows to pop3 on T+23, needing wb2, then faster growth, pop4 on T+26, and so on. So it's surly going to need upwards of 35t or more to begin functioning as a GP farm.
Suppose it has 3wbs from the beginning. T+4 starts working 4f2g. T+13, pop2, gran(13h+44h=57h+1pop). On T+21, pop2, adds 4f1g. T+24, pop3, adds 4f1g. And so on. Again, upwards of 35t to become a GP farm.
Code:
Cows first Clams first
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wb1 T+16 T+4
wb2 T+23 T+21
wb3 T+26 T+24-------------
But there's another factor always present in my thinking: Worker Logistics. Right now we have a worker over by Rice, who could easily work either Rice or Marble (chop1nw(1t)>rdRice(1t)>pastureCows) next. When another worker arrives, he'll have plenty to do improving/roading three resource tiles and building cottages. Both of these sites really beg to be started asap.
Horses on the other hand, requires a limited number of wkr-turns and has very limited potential. It's useful for 1wb/9t and some population for the UN vote.
LowtherCastle
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I'm keeping that in mind. I don't want to play any turns till we decide where the second settler is going: Rice/Marble or Horses.
And this is another good point:
We're really at least one worker short right now. For example, if we settle Rice next, it'll be working an unimproved fp tile instead of the rice forever and a day.
I think that the marble site, is the best site that is left on the mainland, my concern with settling it before the rice is that it would delay the exploration of the west.
How would it look if we settled the marble next, and sent the worker north of 2 fish to improve the cows/marble. We could then explore the west with the workboat built with the overflow form the granary whip. If we built another worker with the overflow in the capital we could chop out another workboat in 2 fish to help with growth (possibly using the existing worker to the west of the capital to get it sooner at the expense of delaying the rice city.)
How would it look if we settled the marble next, and sent the worker north of 2 fish to improve the cows/marble. We could then explore the west with the workboat built with the overflow form the granary whip. If we built another worker with the overflow in the capital we could chop out another workboat in 2 fish to help with growth (possibly using the existing worker to the west of the capital to get it sooner at the expense of delaying the rice city.)
How about we skip HG altogether and just get 1-2 workers from Delhi asap? 
Uh. You can disregard most of my previous talk about Rice<->Clam and WBs. I forgot a tiny detail.
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Aaanyhow, I also question the necessity of HG over a Worker right now. HG would be nice, but is it essential? Would the HG GE points push for a practically guaranteed GE? The health and pop are nice but not to-die-for - does taking a single Worker with the overflow and then starting to grow with Aque/HG even significantly reduce our chances to get it?
...
Aaanyhow, I also question the necessity of HG over a Worker right now. HG would be nice, but is it essential? Would the HG GE points push for a practically guaranteed GE? The health and pop are nice but not to-die-for - does taking a single Worker with the overflow and then starting to grow with Aque/HG even significantly reduce our chances to get it?
My thinking:
We've already sacrificed empire development quite a bit for wonder chasing. It's been totally worthwhile for early bureau and rep, but I think the benefit of HG at this stage is more dubious. We gain some 7-8 free pop, +1 health and slightly better GE odds. We're expanding too fast for workers / WB's to keep up, so the extra 8 pop we get are counter-balanced quite a bit by more workers and improvements right now. Health: it's not like we're terribly lacking. We have all but two resources, and we can probably trade for rice at some point. GE odds: given the quality of our primary and secondary GP farms, I doubt we'll get more than 2, maybe 3 GP's out of Delhi, and we'll need to majorly pollute the gene pool to achieve that. There's not that much of a difference between 2 dice rolls at, say, 20% vs. 40% odds. Luck of the draw is needed either way.
We've already sacrificed empire development quite a bit for wonder chasing. It's been totally worthwhile for early bureau and rep, but I think the benefit of HG at this stage is more dubious. We gain some 7-8 free pop, +1 health and slightly better GE odds. We're expanding too fast for workers / WB's to keep up, so the extra 8 pop we get are counter-balanced quite a bit by more workers and improvements right now. Health: it's not like we're terribly lacking. We have all but two resources, and we can probably trade for rice at some point. GE odds: given the quality of our primary and secondary GP farms, I doubt we'll get more than 2, maybe 3 GP's out of Delhi, and we'll need to majorly pollute the gene pool to achieve that. There's not that much of a difference between 2 dice rolls at, say, 20% vs. 40% odds. Luck of the draw is needed either way.
LowtherCastle
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Okay. I think we've had an excellent discussion. Tomorrow I'll do a little testing on settling Rice/Ivory-Marble-...-Horses, Delhi overflow into a worker, Delhi chops into the Marble settler, etc. We'll see how that works compared towhat I've done without the Delhi worker. 
When I did my tests for the Pyramids dates, the Hanging Gardens was built at: 110B.C., 80B.C., 5B.C., and after 0A.D. on 7 occasions. This means that as long as we get both grass mines up fairly soon we should be able to build a worker next in the capital and get the H.G.
I think HG is essential and actually help more then workers.
WE have enough workers at the moment.
WE get more hammers from population in our empire then we spend on HG , at the rate we expand.
I am really do not understand how skipping HG will help as, most likely it will hurt as.
WE have enough workers at the moment.
WE get more hammers from population in our empire then we spend on HG , at the rate we expand.
I am really do not understand how skipping HG will help as, most likely it will hurt as.
LowtherCastle
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I agree that we should still go for HG.
In my tests, we just don't have enough worker turns. We only have 4 cities and this is already hurting us in 3 of them. Soon we'll have two more cities and only Bombay slow-building 1 worker. To me the idea is just to squeeze in 1 extra worker right now, grow Delhi, then build aque and HG, most likely 3popping more settlers, if needed. We also have a few more forests we could chop into HG, etc.
LowtherCastle
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Turnset Plan T118-T133
Stopping points:
* If Izzy lands settler/settles on island
* If scouting wbs find something worth settling
* If Zara sends settler or galley toward horses
* When Delhi reaches pop6
* Someone completes alpha
* We meet someone new
* If we need Hunting
* SHTF
Note: This plan does not build a settler for horses, at all. Instead, I plan to stop at or before Delhi=pop6 so we can ponder building more settlers. This plan includes starting to develop Bombay as a settler pump so Delhi can grow and work cottages, which is a very slow but important process.
T118
Revolt to Rep + No religion
Sign OBs with Izzy asap (this or next turn)
Oasis: switch build to galley
Two Fish: poprush granary
Delhi: switch build to worker
Delhi wkrs: chop 1NW(1t) (moving toward rice); move to forest hill
Rice wkr: chop 1NW
Ongoing:
Research Currency at 0% until one turn before we have neough gold to research it at 100%, perhaps switch to 100% and/or Hunting
wb explores Izzy's south coast (no need to wait cuz Aksum warrior will see culture)
other wb explores the eastern side of the northern landmass
warrior in Aksum moves 1N to witness the crime of the century and ensure Izzy's doom
free settler moves toward Oasis
NW warrior moves to bust west coast
Axe moves to bust marble area, prep for exploring northern landmass
T119
Sign OBs with Izzy asap (this or last turn)
Two Fish: build wb
Delhi wkrs: mv2nw rd(1t); chop forest hill
western settler moves toward Rice 1S site
T120
settle Rice: wb
wkr from Delhi mv2nw farm rice
T121
Oasis wkr mv 2N to forest hill
new Delhi wkr chops 1NW
Delhi: warrior
T122
Oasis: 1pop galley
T123
Rice wb explores west
settler+warrior board galley and move toward Ivory
Two Fish wb to net sw fish
Rice wkr farms rice
Delhi: settler
Two Fish: lh
Oasis: wb
T124
Delhi wkr mines hill
Delhi: warrior
T125
Rice farmed
rice wkr cottages Rice 1E(1t)
Delhi: settler
T126
settler mvs toward Marble
Rice wkrs: chop 1E; cottage Rice 1E(1t)
settler+warrior disembark onto ivory (assuming Izzy settled far NW island)
Delhi wkr cottages Delhi 2N(1t)
T127
Delhi wkr mines
Rice wkrs chop(1t)
Oasis wkr farms wheat
new Delhi warrior moves to replace ConfMiss
new Bombay wkr rds horses-1S(1t)
new Oasis wb goes to Ivory to make clamnets
Ivory settled: wkr
Delhi: aque
Bombay: granary
Oasis: granary
2fish 2pops lh
revolt to Castes
Ivory hires an artist
T128
Rice wkr rds rice(1t)
Delhi wkr cottages Delhi 2N
Bombay wkr mvs 1S, chops
2fish: library
T129
Delhi wkr cottages Delhi 2N
Rice wkr rds rice
Rice pop2, hires artist
T130
Marble settled, hires artist
Rice wkrs pasture cows(1t)
Marble: granary
warrior replaces ConfMiss, who moves to our culture
T131
Marble wkr rds marble(1t)
Delhi wkr rds Bombay 1W(1t)
Delhi wkr cottages Delhi 1W
Ivory lays clam nets, fires artist and works clams
warrior busts far west arctic tile (barbs can spawn galley to harass Zara)
T132
wkr on marble goes 2S, cottages(1t)
Bombaby wkr at Bombay 1W farms fp
Bombay wkr at horses 2S rds Bombay 1W
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Edit: Here's what this would look like on T133:
.
Stopping points:
* If Izzy lands settler/settles on island
* If scouting wbs find something worth settling
* If Zara sends settler or galley toward horses
* When Delhi reaches pop6
* Someone completes alpha
* We meet someone new
* If we need Hunting
* SHTF
Note: This plan does not build a settler for horses, at all. Instead, I plan to stop at or before Delhi=pop6 so we can ponder building more settlers. This plan includes starting to develop Bombay as a settler pump so Delhi can grow and work cottages, which is a very slow but important process.
T118
Revolt to Rep + No religion
Sign OBs with Izzy asap (this or next turn)
Oasis: switch build to galley
Two Fish: poprush granary
Delhi: switch build to worker
Delhi wkrs: chop 1NW(1t) (moving toward rice); move to forest hill
Rice wkr: chop 1NW
Ongoing:
Research Currency at 0% until one turn before we have neough gold to research it at 100%, perhaps switch to 100% and/or Hunting
wb explores Izzy's south coast (no need to wait cuz Aksum warrior will see culture)
other wb explores the eastern side of the northern landmass
warrior in Aksum moves 1N to witness the crime of the century and ensure Izzy's doom
free settler moves toward Oasis
NW warrior moves to bust west coast
Axe moves to bust marble area, prep for exploring northern landmass
T119
Sign OBs with Izzy asap (this or last turn)
Two Fish: build wb
Delhi wkrs: mv2nw rd(1t); chop forest hill
western settler moves toward Rice 1S site
T120
settle Rice: wb
wkr from Delhi mv2nw farm rice
T121
Oasis wkr mv 2N to forest hill
new Delhi wkr chops 1NW
Delhi: warrior
T122
Oasis: 1pop galley
T123
Rice wb explores west
settler+warrior board galley and move toward Ivory
Two Fish wb to net sw fish
Rice wkr farms rice
Delhi: settler
Two Fish: lh
Oasis: wb
T124
Delhi wkr mines hill
Delhi: warrior
T125
Rice farmed
rice wkr cottages Rice 1E(1t)
Delhi: settler
T126
settler mvs toward Marble
Rice wkrs: chop 1E; cottage Rice 1E(1t)
settler+warrior disembark onto ivory (assuming Izzy settled far NW island)
Delhi wkr cottages Delhi 2N(1t)
T127
Delhi wkr mines
Rice wkrs chop(1t)
Oasis wkr farms wheat
new Delhi warrior moves to replace ConfMiss
new Bombay wkr rds horses-1S(1t)
new Oasis wb goes to Ivory to make clamnets
Ivory settled: wkr
Delhi: aque
Bombay: granary
Oasis: granary
2fish 2pops lh
revolt to Castes
Ivory hires an artist
T128
Rice wkr rds rice(1t)
Delhi wkr cottages Delhi 2N
Bombay wkr mvs 1S, chops
2fish: library
T129
Delhi wkr cottages Delhi 2N
Rice wkr rds rice
Rice pop2, hires artist
T130
Marble settled, hires artist
Rice wkrs pasture cows(1t)
Marble: granary
warrior replaces ConfMiss, who moves to our culture
T131
Marble wkr rds marble(1t)
Delhi wkr rds Bombay 1W(1t)
Delhi wkr cottages Delhi 1W
Ivory lays clam nets, fires artist and works clams
warrior busts far west arctic tile (barbs can spawn galley to harass Zara)
T132
wkr on marble goes 2S, cottages(1t)
Bombaby wkr at Bombay 1W farms fp
Bombay wkr at horses 2S rds Bombay 1W
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Edit: Here's what this would look like on T133:
.
If we keep science at 0% till T133 we will delay currency, I would therefore put the slider to 100% once we have enough gold to research it at that rate. We should be able to trade for hunting well before we need it.
Other than that the plan looks good.
Other than that the plan looks good.
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